Jeff Smith Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 This is a very basic question about 7mm standard-gauge wheel standards and profiles. I have just assembled a Peco W604 GWR 10 ton 4-plank wagon kit. It is in fact for a static transfer siding for my embryo GVT O-16.5 layout using Peco 7mm b/h track. I used the wheels supplied in the kit, they look nice but the flanges seem pretty chunky. I'm wondering if they are considered course scale and whether finer scale wheels are available? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The Gauge 0 Guild may help.I think you would need to be a G0G member to access the actual dimensions for the various standards but this gives some guidance. http://www.gauge0guild.com/general/whatisg0.aspx Slaters do make standard and coarse wheels https://slatersplastikard.com/wheels/7mmScale/7mmCandW.php AFAIK, Peco only supply fine standard wheels. best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold markjj Posted July 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2015 If you want the flanges to look scale you will need to use S7 wheels. Finescale 7mm wheel flanges are about twice the depth of real ones. Mark J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Which would be fine, even on 32mm track, for a static display. Of course, a length of rail, some chairs from C&L and some sleepers and make the siding S7 too... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I've just done a quick visual comparison between my Peco wagon and Slaters finescale wheels, and they match. They're also pretty close to the wheels on the Hornby OO Smokey Joe I'm going to convert to O-16.5, if that's of any relevance (it is to me!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks for all your responses - largely as I imagined. The heading photo on the Slaters link looks the same as the ones in the Peco kit (maybe they are Slaters). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The Peco wheels aren't Slaters. They're cheaper bought separately, but I think they only do one type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The Peco wheels aren't Slaters. They're cheaper bought separately, but I think they only do one type. They do two at least. RO-1 3'1" 8-Spoked and RO-7 3'1" 3-hole disc. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Only one useful type then, if your 7mm modelling is all pre WW1! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 They are built to conform to the same GOG standards. In my opinion, Slaters are superior quality, but Peco wheels work just fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Unless you are going to look at it from a scale 6' the difference between the dead scale S7 wheel and a standard Finescale wheel is unlikely to be obvious. However, if you really want to go S7 wheels, they are quite easy to adapt to being sat on 32mm track. The Slaters S7 wheels use the same axles as the ordinary FS ones, the wheels have a small boss on the back to increase the gauge. This easily removed to reduce the gauge of the wheels. The difference between 32mm track and the S7's 33mm gauge is indistinguishable without actual measurement. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Unless you are going to look at it from a scale 6' the difference between the dead scale S7 wheel and a standard Finescale wheel is unlikely to be obvious. However, if you really want to go S7 wheels, they are quite easy to adapt to being sat on 32mm track. The Slaters S7 wheels use the same axles as the ordinary FS ones, the wheels have a small boss on the back to increase the gauge. This easily removed to reduce the gauge of the wheels. The difference between 32mm track and the S7's 33mm gauge is indistinguishable without actual measurement. Jim To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." What a wonderful put-down. I shall have to remember it for future use, particularly when the comparison is made against 0-MF or 0-SF. Thanks, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." This statement is perfectly valid as long as the layout is empty of loco's and stock. Unfortunately many people have this misconception that Scale7 is all about track standards when that is only one small part of the equation. For me it's about building loco's and in that respect there is a huge difference between Scale7 and 7mm Finescale (0-MF et al). Many loco's are obviously fine scale when the firebox is sat on top of the wheel splashers rather than in-between the frame. Footplates cut around smokebox saddles, dummy front frames not lining up with the loco frames etc. etc. I started building an Ivatt 2 loco in finescale and found it extremely difficult to get the proportions right. The footplate width is about 15% too wide due to the narrow frames so it just looks wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 This statement is perfectly valid as long as the layout is empty of loco's and stock. Unfortunately many people have this misconception that Scale7 is all about track standards when that is only one small part of the equation. For me it's about building loco's and in that respect there is a huge difference between Scale7 and 7mm Finescale (0-MF et al). Many loco's are obviously fine scale when the firebox is sat on top of the wheel splashers rather than in-between the frame. Footplates cut around smokebox saddles, dummy front frames not lining up with the loco frames etc. etc. I started building an Ivatt 2 loco in finescale and found it extremely difficult to get the proportions right. The footplate width is about 15% too wide due to the narrow frames so it just looks wrong. A moderately fair point if you consider prototypes like the Ivatt where the frames are visible as one above and below the running plate, but by no means as true of many earlier locos where it is not possible to see that the frames above the running plate are, or are not, in qute the same place as they are below. And even where the frames are visible, as on the Ivatt locos and the WDs, for example, it is possible to get the visible bit right even on a Finescale loco by a bit of intelligent design (not always present on some kits). Been there, done it. And the difference on rolling stock is far from obvious unless you look very closely (which most of us don't if we are trying to look at the railway as a whole). When all is said and done, there is nowt so evangelical about a cause than a convert. Enough said. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 As a 7mm newcomer, I've always thought of finescale O gauge as pretty much equivalent to EM, and Scale 7 to P4. So I'm happy with finescale, as it looks OK, the gauge isn't far out, and it gives that extra bit of protection against things falling off the track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 A moderately fair point if you consider prototypes like the Ivatt where the frames are visible as one above and below the running plate, but by no means as true of many earlier locos where it is not possible to see that the frames above the running plate are, or are not, in qute the same place as they are below. And even where the frames are visible, as on the Ivatt locos and the WDs, for example, it is possible to get the visible bit right even on a Finescale loco by a bit of intelligent design (not always present on some kits). Been there, done it. And the difference on rolling stock is far from obvious unless you look very closely (which most of us don't if we are trying to look at the railway as a whole). When all is said and done, there is nowt so evangelical about a cause than a convert. Enough said. Jim Too true - I would hope that I never get evangelical about Scale7. I'm simply stating as I find, which is why I said many loco's and not all. Certainly the loco's I want to build for me personally I could not build in finescale and be happy that the proportions were right. Actually I would consider many early loco's extremely difficult to get right in fine scale as well. They are often very clean elegant designs so much more important to get the proportions correct. Many times I've seen photo's in the gazette of pre-grouping loco's with fireboxes sat on the top of wheel splashers or wheels splashers far too wide to cover the wheels Anyone that can do it in fine scale has my admiration, strange as it might seem I just find it much easier to build loco's when the major components can be put in the correct position and I don't have to make work arounds for narrow frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Everything is a compromise, in full scale engineering no less than in model making. In order to have the potential to run the kind of model I would like, I need to accept huge reductions in length of stations, sidings, etc, and in corners whose radius may well be very much below the "dead slow" limits for the locos concerned, despite the fact that I will run at express speeds thereon. One of those compromises is that I can get most of the way there using 32mm gauge, and a further compromise can be achieved by narrowing that still further and using nearer scale flangeways to obtain a better (IMO) appearance. I have no doubt that an S7 loco by the best modeller on the planet will look better than my efforts, but I can't afford the space or the loco... Another compromise. And gauge 1 offers potential for yet more detail... Others may choose different compromises, different priorities. Each to his/her own. Rule 1 applies. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I understand that angling is the most popular pastime in the UK and that with the right sort of bait one can get a bite every time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Surprisingly, it's also one of the most dangerous... http://www.forbes.com/2002/08/07/0807sport.html Though this reference is a little outdated... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously. Basically, the track and locomotives are F7, the passenger and goods rolling stock are S7 with F7 wheels, axles and brake-gear and the signals, buildings, people and scenery are S7. I suppose that must mean I'm mostly S7. Cor!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously. At least you're not building it with OO gauge track, which is what I'm using for my new O, O-MF, O-16.5 layout! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted July 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2015 I have friends in both camps and while I was editor of the Gazette would tone down comments likely to offend one or the other. When moving up to 7mm I was faced with a choice but as I had no layout but could take my stuff to run on local 0 gauge layouts that was the choice I made. I am certain progress would have been slower if I had adopted S7. When ever someone gets a bit high minded about there finescale stuff I usually ask if they have scale diameter wire in the armature windings. We all need to compromise. Clarey Edwards probably less than most he built his steam locos to 1:45 which is right for 32mm track. If the real loco had three cylinders so did his model. His West Country had working chain drive valve gear. He did have to abandon the Gresley conjugated gear as the link was not rigid enough (due to scaling factors) although it was reportedly a bit iffy full size. Do what suits you admire what is good in others layouts and accept that we all make different compromises. S7 wheels would look good on a static model without requiring a lot of work. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I've discovered that the good olde Tri-ang OO Nellie has wheels that just about comply with the GOG finescale standards. I just need to replace the axles.... . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously. Basically, the track and locomotives are F7, the passenger and goods rolling stock are S7 with F7 wheels, axles and brake-gear and the signals, buildings, people and scenery are S7. I suppose that must mean I'm mostly S7. Cor!!! No, just means you are looking for a bite. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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