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7mm Wheel Standards


Jeff Smith

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This is a very basic question about 7mm standard-gauge wheel standards and profiles.

 

I have just assembled a Peco W604 GWR 10 ton 4-plank wagon kit. It is in fact for a static transfer siding for my embryo GVT O-16.5 layout using Peco 7mm b/h track.

 

I used the wheels supplied in the kit, they look nice but the flanges seem pretty chunky. I'm wondering if they are considered course scale and whether finer scale wheels are available?

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The Gauge 0 Guild may help.I think you would need to be a G0G member to access the actual dimensions for the various standards but this gives some guidance.

 

http://www.gauge0guild.com/general/whatisg0.aspx

 

Slaters do make standard and coarse wheels

 

https://slatersplastikard.com/wheels/7mmScale/7mmCandW.php

 

AFAIK, Peco only supply fine standard wheels.

 

best

Simon

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I've just done a quick visual comparison between my Peco wagon and Slaters finescale wheels, and they match. They're also pretty close to the wheels on the Hornby OO Smokey Joe I'm going to convert to O-16.5, if that's of any relevance (it is to me!).

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The Peco wheels aren't Slaters. They're cheaper bought separately, but I think they only do one type.

They do two at least.

RO-1 3'1" 8-Spoked and

RO-7 3'1" 3-hole disc.

Dave

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Unless you are going to look at it from a scale 6' the difference between the dead scale S7 wheel and a standard Finescale wheel is unlikely to be obvious. However, if you really want to go S7 wheels, they are quite easy to adapt to being sat on 32mm track. The Slaters S7 wheels use the same axles as the ordinary FS ones, the wheels have a small boss on the back to increase the gauge. This easily removed to reduce the gauge of the wheels. The difference between 32mm track and the S7's 33mm gauge is indistinguishable without actual measurement.

 

Jim

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Unless you are going to look at it from a scale 6' the difference between the dead scale S7 wheel and a standard Finescale wheel is unlikely to be obvious. However, if you really want to go S7 wheels, they are quite easy to adapt to being sat on 32mm track. The Slaters S7 wheels use the same axles as the ordinary FS ones, the wheels have a small boss on the back to increase the gauge. This easily removed to reduce the gauge of the wheels. The difference between 32mm track and the S7's 33mm gauge is indistinguishable without actual measurement.

 

Jim

To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions."

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To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions."

What a wonderful put-down. I shall have to remember it for future use, particularly when the comparison is made against 0-MF or 0-SF.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

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To quote the late Cyril Freezer from his book "The Model Railway Design Manual" published by PSL in 1996, Scale Seven "...involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions."

This statement is perfectly valid as long as the layout is empty of loco's and stock. Unfortunately many people have this misconception that Scale7 is all about track standards when that is only one small part of the equation. For me it's about building loco's and in that respect there is a huge difference between Scale7 and 7mm Finescale (0-MF et al). Many loco's are obviously fine scale when the firebox is sat on top of the wheel splashers rather than in-between the frame. Footplates cut around smokebox saddles, dummy front frames not lining up with the loco frames etc. etc. I started building an Ivatt 2 loco in finescale and found it extremely difficult to get the proportions right. The footplate width is about 15% too wide due to the narrow frames so it just looks wrong.

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This statement is perfectly valid as long as the layout is empty of loco's and stock. Unfortunately many people have this misconception that Scale7 is all about track standards when that is only one small part of the equation. For me it's about building loco's and in that respect there is a huge difference between Scale7 and 7mm Finescale (0-MF et al). Many loco's are obviously fine scale when the firebox is sat on top of the wheel splashers rather than in-between the frame. Footplates cut around smokebox saddles, dummy front frames not lining up with the loco frames etc. etc. I started building an Ivatt 2 loco in finescale and found it extremely difficult to get the proportions right. The footplate width is about 15% too wide due to the narrow frames so it just looks wrong.

A moderately fair point if you consider prototypes like the Ivatt where the frames are visible as one above and below the running plate, but by no means as true of many earlier locos where it is not possible to see that the frames above the running plate are, or are not, in qute the same place as they are below. And even where the frames are visible, as on the Ivatt locos and the WDs, for example, it is possible to get the visible bit right even on a Finescale loco by a bit of intelligent design (not always present on some kits). Been there, done it.

And the difference on rolling stock is far from obvious unless you look very closely (which most of us don't if we are trying to look at the railway as a whole).

 

When all is said and done, there is nowt so evangelical about a cause than a convert. Enough said.

 

Jim

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As a 7mm newcomer, I've always thought of finescale O gauge as pretty much equivalent to EM, and Scale 7 to P4. So I'm happy with finescale, as it looks OK, the gauge isn't far out, and it gives that extra bit of protection against things falling off the track.

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A moderately fair point if you consider prototypes like the Ivatt where the frames are visible as one above and below the running plate, but by no means as true of many earlier locos where it is not possible to see that the frames above the running plate are, or are not, in qute the same place as they are below. And even where the frames are visible, as on the Ivatt locos and the WDs, for example, it is possible to get the visible bit right even on a Finescale loco by a bit of intelligent design (not always present on some kits). Been there, done it.

And the difference on rolling stock is far from obvious unless you look very closely (which most of us don't if we are trying to look at the railway as a whole).

 

When all is said and done, there is nowt so evangelical about a cause than a convert. Enough said.

 

Jim

 

Too true - I would hope that I never get evangelical about Scale7. I'm simply stating as I find, which is why I said many loco's and not all. Certainly the loco's I want to build for me personally I could not build in finescale and be happy that the proportions were right. Actually I would consider many early loco's extremely difficult to get right in fine scale as well. They are often very clean elegant designs so much more important to get the proportions correct. Many times I've seen photo's in the gazette of pre-grouping loco's with fireboxes sat on the top of wheel splashers or wheels splashers far too wide to cover the wheels Anyone that can do it in fine scale has my admiration, strange as it might seem I just find it much easier to build loco's when the major components can be put in the correct position and I don't have to make work arounds for narrow frames. 

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Everything is a compromise, in full scale engineering no less than in model making.

 

In order to have the potential to run the kind of model I would like, I need to accept huge reductions in length of stations, sidings, etc, and in corners whose radius may well be very much below the "dead slow" limits for the locos concerned, despite the fact that I will run at express speeds thereon.

 

One of those compromises is that I can get most of the way there using 32mm gauge, and a further compromise can be achieved by narrowing that still further and using nearer scale flangeways to obtain a better (IMO) appearance.

 

I have no doubt that an S7 loco by the best modeller on the planet will look better than my efforts, but I can't afford the space or the loco... Another compromise. And gauge 1 offers potential for yet more detail...

 

Others may choose different compromises, different priorities.

 

Each to his/her own. Rule 1 applies.

Best

Simon

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I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously. Basically, the track and locomotives are F7, the passenger and goods rolling stock are S7 with F7 wheels, axles and brake-gear and  the signals, buildings, people and scenery are S7. I suppose that must mean I'm mostly S7. Cor!!!

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I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously.

At least you're not building it with OO gauge track, which is what I'm using for my new O, O-MF, O-16.5 layout!

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I have friends in both camps and while I was editor of the Gazette would tone down comments likely to offend one or the other. When moving up to 7mm I was faced with a choice but as I had no layout but could take my stuff to run on local 0 gauge layouts that was the choice I made. I am certain progress would have been slower if I had adopted S7. When ever someone gets a bit high minded about there finescale stuff I usually ask if they have scale diameter wire in the armature windings.

We all need to compromise. Clarey Edwards probably less than most he built his steam locos to 1:45 which is right for 32mm track. If the real loco had three cylinders so did his model. His West Country had working chain drive valve gear. He did have to abandon the Gresley conjugated gear as the link was not rigid enough (due to scaling factors) although it was reportedly a bit iffy full size. 

 

Do what suits you admire what is good in others layouts and accept that we all make different compromises. S7 wheels would look good on a static model without requiring a lot of work. 

Don

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I have just been packing some finescale Ixion 0 gauge locos for customers when I realised that my Cwm Bach layout is S7 and F7 simultaneously. Basically, the track and locomotives are F7, the passenger and goods rolling stock are S7 with F7 wheels, axles and brake-gear and  the signals, buildings, people and scenery are S7. I suppose that must mean I'm mostly S7. Cor!!!

No, just means you are looking for a bite.

Regards

Keith

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