RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2015 Whilst not electric, the Southern attached the odd one or the wagons to local loco hauled services. Mainly vans, but I have seen a container in a medfit. MLV plus BG for the mails from Ashford to Ramsgate via CU. MLV plus bogie GUV from Faversham to Dover. MLV plus TTA out of Dover. Yes, MLVs had regular workings as locomotives, taking vans from East Croydon and later Redhill to Victoria Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted July 18, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2015 Bit surprised nobody's mentioned the time when the SR MLVs towed tank wagons of water between Ramsgate and Dover (? - somebody will correct me if I've got that wrong!) during a period of drought, for the carriage washer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Thanks chaps. I just found a picture on Google images of a pair of MLV's (one NSE, one Jaffa) with a tta on the back moving along Shakespeare cliff. Cant coppy a link so just put "BR mlv" in and its a couple of pages down. I wasn't going to order a MLV as I thought they were a bit boring. This thread has changed my mind, they actually had some interesting duties and movements Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2015 MLVs are great things, because they can go to places EMUs cannot, i.e. off the juice. While not as versatile as an EDL, with its diesel engine, the MLV's batteries enabled it to visit yards and sidings without juice rail. Modelling that capability can be fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Your right. My layout is a small ectrified branch with an early small TMD circa 75. There's going to be a couple of sidings on the next board I wasn't sure what to do with. I was thinking permanent way sidings but now it will be a small parcels facility. The MLV and TLV can leave the juice and run down to that now. Best order a BG and MLV while their on offer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc442/ferriesdover/Train%20Yard%20Dover/julyo9andysdovertownyard051.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Tail traffic behind EMUs was unheard of as very few other vehicles were air-braked during the years of the "traditional" emu stock. Certainly unfitted or unbraked vehicles were not allowed behind any passenger train unless it had a brake van behind! There were indeed some RMBs fitted with EMU jumper cables, ISTR they ran in with 8VEP to make an 8VAB or in TC sets during latter years when the REPS were being withdrawn. The MLVs were indeed versatile and could be used on the back of an EMU set with air or vac braked stock behind, the MLV being used to "convert" the air brake pressure to vac brake "suck"! It was permissible for an EMU to assist a failed train with vac brakes but of course this was subject to the limitation of the power of the EMU and braking capability. The only time it nearly happened to me was one summer evening, working a Waterloo-Reading service, approaching Wokingham, and mentally reviewing such procedures. Got stopped at the home signal, sat there a while, phoned the signalman who told me the Gatwick-Reading DMU had failed in the platform!! I must be a witch I thought. Then he phone back and said wait there 20 minutes, we'll get the next DMU to push him through. Oh well.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 19, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2015 The MLVs were indeed versatile and could be used on the back of an EMU set with air or vac braked stock behind, the MLV being used to "convert" the air brake pressure to vac brake "suck"! Not quite true I am afraid. Only the first 2 MLVs had this feature, the remaining 6 built a year or two later could not. IIRC this was replicated with the 73s where the initial JA series had the air - vac translation capacity where as the later (and larger in number) JB series did not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted July 19, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2015 A suppose technically an emu with a tail load were the Waterloo - Weymouth trains which had a four car emu pulling or pushing two four car TC sets to Bournemouth. At Bournemouth the emu was replacec by a 33 for the trip to Weymouth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbyhorse Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 31A is correct, I did a few of those runs which broke up a long PNB with STP alterations to our turn. So instead of a sandwich on the beach at Ramgates, off to Dover. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The SR stores units, 022 & 023, which were formed in about 1970 from pairs of 2Hal power cars ran to a weekly timetable between Eastleigh works and various depots on the SR and were sometimes used to tow air braked LHCS on the Eastleigh - Clapham Junction, and return, workings. As far as I know only one vehicle was moved at a time. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Well, I did some googling and found an emu with something attached to the rear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 When I learnt the MLVs we were told they all had the capacity to run with vac braked stock on the rear. Maybe the guys at South Side weren't giving the right information. I read similar in David Woodcock's writings on the MLVs. Maybe my memory has faded inasmuch as they were all fitted with exhausters but could only haul vac braked stock when running by themselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The MLVs cetainly could haul vacuum braked stock and, like the class 73s, could 'translate' air brake commands to vacuum brake or vice versa if placed between air and vacuum braked stocks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2015 TLVs. I can't quote numbers, but there were a handful of BGs converted to run in boat train formations, conveying Registered Baggage. They were equipped with jumpers and through electrical connections. They only worked with MLVs, so never with an EMU on its own. The only other occasions when odd vehicles might have been EMU-hauled would have been in the inter-depot workings on CM&EE trips, where unconventional lashups might be used to move a vehicle. I cannot recall anything other than EMU stock on these, however. The TLVs carried stock numbers S68201 - S68206 They could be placed "inside" an MLV ahead of a rake of EP-braked stock on boat trains or could trail an MLV as a train in its own right. Technically they were EMU vehicles in the same way that the 3TC and 4TC trailer units were. I know of no recorded instance of any electric unit towing "tail traffic" in the sense that it was attached to diesel units. There were many scheduled turns for MLVs to tow and shunt unpowered vans (other than the TLVs) but in such cases they were acting as a locomotive and were designed specifically to be able to do so. The question is where do you draw the line? A class 73 pulling vans is a locomotive-hauled train. So is an MLV when not coupled with any other unit and when hauling only vans. The Tyneside system had a similar vehicles starting in 1904 with a pair used for fish and sundries transport http://www.ntsra.org.uk/parcels.htmland finally ending with E68000 which I believe ran in much the same way as the SR MLVs towing unpowered ones around. http://www.bloodandcustard.com/mlv001.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2015 When I learnt the MLVs we were told they all had the capacity to run with vac braked stock on the rear. Maybe the guys at South Side weren't giving the right information. I read similar in David Woodcock's writings on the MLVs. Maybe my memory has faded inasmuch as they were all fitted with exhausters but could only haul vac braked stock when running by themselves. The MLVs cetainly could haul vacuum braked stock and, like the class 73s, could 'translate' air brake commands to vacuum brake or vice versa if placed between air and vacuum braked stocks. From http://www.bloodandcustard.com/mlv001.html In order to further increase the usefulness of the MLVs they were equipped with vacuum exhausters which enabled them to be used as locomotives hauling vacuum braked parcels vans (for which a vacuum brake connection was provided at each end at solebar level). 100 ton loads were allowed to be hauled, though this was reduced to 50 tons up the steeply graded Folkestone Harbour branch. It was possible to use the first two MLVs (68001 & 68002) to convert the air braking of a train into vacuum by marshalling them between such vehicles and few runs were made in the early 1960s with one of these coupled between an EMU and a loco-hauled Bulleid 3-set. The final batch of eight MLVs did not have this facility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The above info on vacuum brakes/air-vac conversion is also backed up by SEMG at http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class419_01.html The first two, delivered in April/May 1959 had the capability when marshalled intermediately within a train to convert air braking on one side into vacuum braking on the other. A few trial runs were made in the early 1960s with an EMU + MLV + Bulleid loco-hauled 3-set formation. All ten units did however have vacuum exhausters and were able to haul vacuum braked vans in the conventional way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Knew I had it somewhere - the attachment is a bit of (incomplete) research I conducted using a BR (SR) 1985 - 1986 WTT. . Details of some (not all) MLV workings, and the relevant tail loads. . Brian R MLV workings 1985-1986.xls Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 This attachment shows the state of play in 1984 when I was researching what had happened to the redundant TLV's . Brian R SR TLV.xls Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The SR was still running loco-hauled van trains that had passenger accommodation attached in the late 1980s. . Many,(originating at London terminii) but not all, were newspaper trains Including the following:- . 21.45 SX Bristol - Southampton Cl.33/0 + BSK + Vans 01.55 MX Southampton - Bristol " " 03.40 SUN Waterloo - Petersfield Cl.50 + TSO + Vans 07.00 SUN Guildford - Woking " " 03.10 SUN Waterloo - Portsmouth Cl.33 + Mk1's + Vans 22.52 Waterloo - Weymouth Cl.73, Cl.33/1 + Mk1's + Vans + TPO(SX) 22.38 SX Weymouth - Waterloo " " " 22.53 SO " " " " " 02.45 Waterloo - Bournemouth Cl.33/0,33/1 + Mk1's + Vans + Portsmouth portion MO 03.00 SUN Waterloo - Eastleigh Cl.73 + Mk1's + Vans 07.56 SX Brockenhurst - Eastleigh " " 03.33 (04.14 SUN) London Bdge - Eastbourne Cl.73/1 + BSK + Vans 03.40 (03.55 SUN) Victoria - Dover Cl.73/1 + BSK + Vans 02.45 Victoria - Deal Cl.73 + BSK + Vans 03.10 Victoria - Sittingbourne " " 04.05 SUN Victoria – Ramsgate " " 04.25 SUN Victoria - Dover Priory " " 04.33 Eastleigh - Portsmouth Harbour Cl.33/0 + BSK " Vans MO, detached from 02.45 ex W'loo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 From April, 1987 the SR altered its TOPS Pools for NPCCS, including its TPO stock which worked the South Western TPO 22:52hrs Waterloo-Weymouth . . This was/were the proposed pools and allocations . Pool RNPS, Newspapers SR (initial pool allocations, as at April 1987) NCV:- 80695, 84292/345 all FR-EH 28/05/87 (80695 @ Wolverton Wks 6/9/87) NDX:- 80893/926/945, 84273/89/510 NCX:- 80933, (FR-EH 28/05/87) 95201 (CJ-EH 28/05/87), 95206 (FR-EH 28/05/87), 95211 (CJ-EH 28/05/87), 95216/21 (FR-EH 28/05/87) NMV:- 94051-56/64 Note 84345 renumbered 95304 mid 1987 Pool RPOS, Post Office SR (initial pool allocations, as at April 1987) NSX:- 80340/78/79/80 (CJ-EH 28/05/87) NTX:- 80428/29/30 (CJ-EH 28/05/87) ADDENDUM Due to a shortage of vans at Eastleigh, the following SR ‘B’ vans in 'departmental service were used on newspaper trains during June 1987 DB977077 (S396S) SU CM & EE Stores Van. DB977111 (S222S) NG Brute repair van. DB977112 (S248S) FR Brute repair van. Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 3, 2015 The SR was still running loco-hauled van trains that had passenger accommodation attached in the late 1980s. . Many,(originating at London terminii) but not all, were newspaper trains Including the following:- . 21.45 SX Bristol - Southampton Cl.33/0 + BSK + Vans 01.55 MX Southampton - Bristol " " 03.40 SUN Waterloo - Petersfield Cl.50 + TSO + Vans 07.00 SUN Guildford - Woking " " 03.10 SUN Waterloo - Portsmouth Cl.33 + Mk1's + Vans 22.52 Waterloo - Weymouth Cl.73, Cl.33/1 + Mk1's + Vans + TPO(SX) 22.38 SX Weymouth - Waterloo " " " 22.53 SO " " " " " 02.45 Waterloo - Bournemouth Cl.33/0,33/1 + Mk1's + Vans + Portsmouth portion MO 03.00 SUN Waterloo - Eastleigh Cl.73 + Mk1's + Vans 07.56 SX Brockenhurst - Eastleigh " " 03.33 (04.14 SUN) London Bdge - Eastbourne Cl.73/1 + BSK + Vans 03.40 (03.55 SUN) Victoria - Dover Cl.73/1 + BSK + Vans 02.45 Victoria - Deal Cl.73 + BSK + Vans 03.10 Victoria - Sittingbourne " " 04.05 SUN Victoria – Ramsgate " " 04.25 SUN Victoria - Dover Priory " " 04.33 Eastleigh - Portsmouth Harbour Cl.33/0 + BSK " Vans MO, detached from 02.45 ex W'loo. Hi Brian So was the ER on the GER newspaper trains, these were for the staff to ride in when the sorting had finished and on the way home. A group of us use to use the news to get back to Colchester after a night out. Leave the club under Charring Cross at about 3 am, slow walk up to Liverpool Street, some times via the soup wagon on the Embankment, jump on the news for a short sleep and it arrived back in Colchester in time for me to have breakfast after walking back to the barracks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The passenger accommodation was more for the packers to grab a sleep on the way up to Town- on the loaded journey, they were far too busy. My first landlady's eldest son was a packer on the Paddington- Bristol; he used to go up in the early evening. I blagged a ride on the Down working (after seeing Commander Cody at Hammersmith in 1976), and we didn't see any packers all the way down to Bristol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I thought I was right thinking all the MLVs could haul vacuum stock All had exhausters, so it seems I'd forgotten only the first 2 could "translate" the ep/Westinghouse to vacuum via an EP unit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 My notes for summer 1987 show the following workings..BR (SR) Newspaper servicesThe return workings are shown in italicsSouth Eastern Section (3 workings)0245hrs. London Bridge – Deal Class 73 + BSK (AB2) plus vans.1915hrs Margate – London Bridge parcels0310hrs. London Bridge – Sittingbourne BSK (AB2) plus vans1718hrs. Gillingham – London Bridge parcels0330hrs. London Bridge – Dover, Western Docks BSK (AB2) plus vans.2000hrs. Dover – London Bridge parcelsAll stock is maintained at RamsgateCentral Section (No booked workings)Western Section2252hrs. Waterloo – Weymouth BSK/TSO/BSK plus vans2238hrs. Weymouth – Waterloo, then to Eastleigh (for maintenance), via Southampton, returning via Portsmouth on ordinary parcels working(s).0140hrs. Waterloo – Yeovil Jct. BSK/TSO0515hrs. Yeovil Jct. – Salisbury0702hrs. Salisbury – Southampton – Eastleigh2122hrs. Southampton – Waterloo parcels0230hrs. Waterloo – Portsmouth via Havant BSK(unadvertised, seating reserved for newspaper packers)Returns via Eastleigh, then by2200hrs. Southampton – Waterloo parcels.0245hrs. Waterloo – Bournemouth BSK & Portsmouth BSK(plus TSO MO), via Eastleigh.Train divided at Eastleigh, with the Bournemouth portion strengthened by a BSK & TSO.Stock returns as follows;0624hrs. Fareham – Eastleigh (Portsmouth portion)0725hrs. Bournemouth – Eastleigh .All return to London as;2141hrs. Eastleigh -Portsmouth – Waterloo parcelsNOTES1555hrs. Eastleigh – Fratton ECS booked to convey the stock for;2252hrs.(3 vehicles plus vans), and 0245hrs. (2 vehicles plus vans) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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