Driving standards

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The problem is not proving they are better than real drivers.  The problem is that they are having to co-exist in the same road space with real drivers, whose behaviour is unpredictable and erratic.  The unlicenced, under age or drunk will be stranded in the middle of nowhere without assistance or supervision when they are struck by an uninsured "real driver" going the wrong way down the motorway in a stolen vehicle, probably also unlicenced, under age and drunk. 

So the self-driving cars will be better then, because they will have to avoid the rubbish drivers?

 

They aren't at present, because they need to be supervised, by a real person in the drivers seat, holding the wheel and being ready to react.

 

As I said, we aren't there yet, no matter how much you bring up scenarios. Not saying that none of them happen, or even multiple examples.

 

If as you say, governments will need another revenue stream.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/huge-surge-in-fines-from-victoria-s-new-mobile-speed-cameras-20211229-p59klm.html

[SamThomas]

53 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Tempting but a bad risk.

 

Not really, just need to keep an eye on them.

 

Anyway, most of my motorway driving thesedays is in an HGV so they are easier to watch.

[PhilJ W]

17 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Not really, just need to keep an eye on them.

 

Anyway, most of my motorway driving thesedays is in an HGV so they are easier to watch.

And the drunken, no licence idiots who go the wrong way on motorways you just wipe off the front bumper. 

[SamThomas]

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

And the drunken, no licence idiots who go the wrong way on motorways you just wipe off the front bumper. 

Basically yes.

 

Then, there is the mountain of paperwork to deal will, the phone calls, the interview with a driver trainer (see my comment on the Grosmont thread) & the fact that having to deal with these sort of issues can easily make you miss your delivery/pickup slot or cause you to run out of Tacho time.

 

Most HGV drivers avoid collisions at all costs (even when the other driver is in the wrong because he/she is a waste of space).

[F-UnitMad]

23 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

And the drunken, no licence idiots who go the wrong way on motorways you just wipe off the front bumper. 

In all my 26 years driving HGVs, I saw that -  let me think - ah yes:- Never.  

 

Drunken and no licence; probably far more than I ever knew, but far too many drivers didn't need those excuses to be dangerous.

Edited December 29, 2021 by F-UnitMad

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

So the self-driving cars will be better then, because they will have to avoid the rubbish drivers?

 

They aren't at present, because they need to be supervised, by a real person in the drivers seat, holding the wheel and being ready to react.

 

As I said, we aren't there yet, no matter how much you bring up scenarios. Not saying that none of them happen, or even multiple examples.

 

If as you say, governments will need another revenue stream.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/huge-surge-in-fines-from-victoria-s-new-mobile-speed-cameras-20211229-p59klm.html

I was working on the EU Eureka Prometheus project back in the 80’s and early 90’s, Jaguar being a major member was working on autonomous (actually, really radar cruise and Lane control) vehicle control, it was very early days but it worked….after a fashion and very, very scary on the A127 the Jag had excellent brakes but applied them far too late for comfort, as I said scary!

We did have a plastic engine for the Fiesta though, that worked well……I say plastic as that was the selling point to the EU but in fact it was a mix of the highest tech materials loosely called “plastic” back then.

 

I used to love being at the cutting edge of new tech, never a dull moment and always a long day 

[boxbrownie]

27 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

In all my 26 years driving HGVs, I saw that -  let me think - ah yes:- Never.  

 

Typical truckie, too busy watching football on the phone 

 

Just kidding…..really.

[Michael Hodgson]

Well I never had to spend my working day driving for a living but I've seen idiots on the wrong carriageway three times - fortunately I had a crash barrier between me and them each time.  You're right though, they probably didn't need to be boozed up to be so dangerous.

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Having been up and down the M40 weekly throughout the autumn, I've become a bit frustrated with the 67 mph in the middle lane types, especially in light traffic. If one overtakes them from the inside lane, returning directly to the inside lane, they sometimes take the hint. But if they don't I've been sorely tempted to slow down, let them drift past me, and repeat the overtaking manoeuvre - driving in circles round them. I've not yet succumbed to the temptation though. 

I've been very tempted to do that before too, never done so though! Worst I've seen was two morons doing 65ish in lane 2 of the M3, clearly oblivious to the police car bearing down on them at speed with full blues...

[PhilJ W]

The worst bit of driving on the Motorways I've seen was about twenty five years ago. I was attending a seminar in Manchester and set off for home on a Sunday Morning, just as I set off it started snowing and was very heavy by the time I reached Knutsford services. A lot of the food outlets were shut and they'd had a power cut so several other drivers and myself elected to carry on in convoy. The centre lane was the only one that was useable so we all continued in that lane about fifty metres apart, any greater distance in the almost white out conditions and we wouldn't be able to see the vehicle in front so we drove that way at less than thirty mph. We had travelled that way without mishap when two cars almost nose to tail overtook me doing about seventy. Obviously racing and they even passed the vehicle in front of me on either side. They then disappeared into the white out (both cars were white!). About three quarters of an hour later I passed both cars piled up in the central barrier, both badly damaged with the drivers trying to thumb a lift. I didn't stop for them and as far as I'm aware no one else did either.

[F-UnitMad]

Saw something similar myself once, silly o'clock in the morning, just a few trucks on a quiet, unlit motorway. Three cars go flying past, nose to tail, Porsche, Merc & Beemer (not neccessarily in that order).

A few miles further on, the leading truck brakes & hazards go on. We all slow, and crawl past the scattered wrecks of a Porsche, Merc & Beemer...    

[PhilJ W]

Of the two cars that I saw one was a Beemer and the other was some sort of expensive sports job. I hope that they had to wait a while to be rescued. Quite likely as people had actually abandoned their cars on the motorway. I managed to get off at Birmingham where they opened up the NEC for stranded travellers and I didn't get home until Monday afternoon.

[boxbrownie]

Bobbling back from Worcs this week we decided to plod along in the 1st lane at 60 mph on cruise, just upping it to 65 to pop past the occasional truck (although on Boxing Day going up there there were none of course, that WAS an easy ride), coming back along the M5 just north of Brizzle a rather nice looking Porsche 911 of very wide proportions passed us in lane three……nothing in lane two of course but just then another very wide Porsche looking a bit more “juicy” tucked up next to him in the second lane, for a few seconds they drove adjacent to each other and having obviously eyed each other up started to disappear very quickly with lots of noise having lead footed it in both, they were getting out of view as the one in the second lane just managed to get the advantage and get far enough in front to pull over into the third lane in front of the other Porker, then all brake lights and drama as on the hard shoulder was a unmarked car with all the blue and reds flashing, they slowed right down and he pulled off the shoulder as we got to him and disappeared to obviously have a little word, sure enough a good few miles further up they were all there on the shoulder having a little picnic I assume? 

[Nick C]

I've probably recounted this one here before, but the most dangerous driving I've seen on a UK motorway was a scaffolding lorry (transit pickup size thing if I remember correctly) on the northbound M3 one morning (probably 15 years ago). Moderate traffic, at the point the Bournemouth slip joins the Southampton and Portsmouth bit, all lanes busy but doing 40-50. Said lorry came up from the slip (which becomes lanes 1&2 of a 4 lane stretch to the next junction), then straight across into lane 4 - without looking, signalling or paying any attention to anyone else. I reckon at least 6-8 cars, probably more, had to take evasive action. Of course long before dashcams became commonplace...

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Bobbling back from Worcs this week we decided to plod along in the 1st lane at 60 mph on cruise, just upping it to 65 to pop past the occasional truck (although on Boxing Day going up there there were none of course, that WAS an easy ride), coming back along the M5 just north of Brizzle a rather nice looking Porsche 911 of very wide proportions passed us in lane three……nothing in lane two of course but just then another very wide Porsche looking a bit more “juicy” tucked up next to him in the second lane, for a few seconds they drove adjacent to each other and having obviously eyed each other up started to disappear very quickly with lots of noise having lead footed it in both, they were getting out of view as the one in the second lane just managed to get the advantage and get far enough in front to pull over into the third lane in front of the other Porker, then all brake lights and drama as on the hard shoulder was a unmarked car with all the blue and reds flashing, they slowed right down and he pulled off the shoulder as we got to him and disappeared to obviously have a little word, sure enough a good few miles further up they were all there on the shoulder having a little picnic I assume? 

 

Hopefully waiting for a Vet

[leopardml2341]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The problem is not proving they are better than real drivers.  The problem is that they are having to co-exist in the same road space with real drivers, whose behaviour is unpredictable and erratic.  The unlicenced, under age or drunk will be stranded in the middle of nowhere without assistance or supervision when they are struck by an uninsured "real driver" going the wrong way down the motorway in a stolen vehicle, probably also unlicenced, under age and drunk. 

I fear the 'lowest common denominator' effect.

[black and decker boy]

20 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A long way off, further than many like to think. The self-driving vehicles have to be proven to be BETTER than real drivers. How mind boggling boring would it be to have to sit in the drivers seat, just to monitor the self drive, which is where we are at. No sitting in the back working on a lap top or watching Youtube.

 

Will they ever be at the stage where unlicenced, drunk or underage people will be able to just hop in and go to a destination? Then there is the time taken for the fleet change. Most vehicles will never be retrofitted, as this would be prohibitively expensive.

Having a car fitted with autopilot (not full self driving), I can assure you it is not mind bogglingly boring letting the car do the thinking for 20 or 30 minutes of hum drum unbroken motorway journey but allows me to stretch and relax a little. Clearly I keep hands, eyes & mind 100% on the road just as all other drivers do at all times ;-)

 

The technology isn’t perfect though, it’s risk averse and can be panicky - keeping your eye on the road is advised. There are also the driver vigilance tests to do every 20-30 seconds.

 

it’s does help remove any temptation (conscious or unconscious) to speed up randomly as faster cars approach, to drift or weave across lane lines or to slow randomly (or at sight of a camera sign) despite not exceeding the limit.

 

I currently do 2000miles a month or so. Some of the waffy and inconsiderate / ignorant driving I see beggars belief.

[Pete the Elaner]

9 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Having a car fitted with autopilot (not full self driving), I can assure you it is not mind bogglingly boring letting the car do the thinking for 20 or 30 minutes of hum drum unbroken motorway journey but allows me to stretch and relax a little. Clearly I keep hands, eyes & mind 100% on the road just as all other drivers do at all times ;-)

 

The technology isn’t perfect though, it’s risk averse and can be panicky - keeping your eye on the road is advised. There are also the driver vigilance tests to do every 20-30 seconds.

 

it’s does help remove any temptation (conscious or unconscious) to speed up randomly as faster cars approach, to drift or weave across lane lines or to slow randomly (or at sight of a camera sign) despite not exceeding the limit.

 

I currently do 2000miles a month or so. Some of the waffy and inconsiderate / ignorant driving I see beggars belief.

 

I have driven a friend's Tesla with autopilot engaged & agree that it is not boring. You are always aware that it is making adjustments & this keeps you alert. You are still in control, but it really is aiding you.

It reminded me of a cab ride on the Central Line. It was in ATO, so the computer was driving but the driver was frequently having to acknowledge some sort of alert, often twice between stations. Switching into coded manual mode was something which looked very routine. The driver was certainly nothing like a passenger.

[Pete the Elaner]

I was following my GF on Christmas day. We were driving from her mother's to hers in our own cars so she could drop her car off then we could both go to mine. We were driving through a small town & the car in front was slowing to 10mph for speed bumps then only accelerating to about 15 on flat road. My GF decided to overtake & thought I would give her some verbal for it.

We discussed it on the way back & she was surprised by my reaction because I said she made a good decision to pass.

I believe the other driver was going so slowly for 1 of 2 reasons.

They had been drinking & were nervous and therefore over-cautious.

The passenger was the car's keeper but they had been drinking & the driver was not insured.

 

Stay safe everyone. Many of us like a drink, especially at this time of year, but is there really any need if you know you need to drive later on?

[Michael Hodgson]

11 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

We discussed it on the way back & she was surprised by my reaction because I said she made a good decision to pass.

I believe the other driver was going so slowly for 1 of 2 reasons.

They had been drinking & were nervous and therefore over-cautious.

The passenger was the car's keeper but they had been drinking & the driver was not insured.

 

When I believe the driver of the car in front is drunk or incompetent, I prefer not to overtake  - I want him where I can see him so that I can keep a safe distance between us.  If he's behind me, he may well drive into my rear. 

[Pete the Elaner]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When I believe the driver of the car in front is drunk or incompetent, I prefer not to overtake  - I want him where I can see him so that I can keep a safe distance between us.  If he's behind me, he may well drive into my rear. 

They were not going fast enough to do that. I was stuck behind them for another mile or so & I stayed well back.

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When I believe the driver of the car in front is drunk or incompetent, I prefer not to overtake  - I want him where I can see him so that I can keep a safe distance between us.  If he's behind me, he may well drive into my rear. 

For the same reason if they're behind me I let them pass ASAP.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

For the same reason if they're behind me I let them pass ASAP.

 

You must be joking. They were doing no more than 15mph & that really is no exaggeration, honestly.

Think about it: You would have to stop to let them catch you & then what?  Would they actually pass or just plough into your boot because they really couldn't decide what to do? I was genuinely scared for her until she got past.

I am pleased she went past because I can see her tomorrow at mine..or hers.., not in hospital.

[Nick Holliday]

Had an interesting experience about 45 years ago on the M4.  It must have been a Bank Holiday as there was little traffic, and, as my car had an annoying habit of rattling at around 70, to keep my wife happy we were poodling along at around 65 in the inside lane, with a sparkling lorry tractor just in front, with an array of lights and horns on the cab roof that was truly impressive.  Our little convoy was rapidly overhauling a Ford Corsair (remember them?) stuck in the middle lane of an otherwise empty motorway, and despite a few gentle suggestions, it showed no signs of moving over.  The lorry driver then decided to take action, moved into position close behind the Ford and then blasted it with everything he had - lights and horns.  Instead of merely pulling over, the Ford driver decided, at last, that he must be travelling slower than he thought, and decided to accelerate away.  Unfortunately, in those days, Ford gear ratios meant that there was less torque in top gear, or something like that, and the usual response in this situation was to slam it into third and accelerate off.  Sadly, when you are travelling at the maximum speed of your car, this policy does not work too well, and instead of accelerating away, the Ford effectively slammed its brakes on.  Fortunately the lorry driver was alert to this, and, with no load, his braking was as impressive as his lighting rig, but he did bounce around a bit, whilst we watched from the inside lane.

Once everyone had settled down, we all drove the next twenty miles at a steady 60 in the inside lane, until all the adrenalin had dispersed!

Edited December 30, 2021 by Nick Holliday

[SamThomas]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When I believe the driver of the car in front is drunk

Best place is to keep them at a safe distance in front, push 3 x 9's on your phone & wait for plod to turn up with a little thingy for the driver to blow in to.

 

& yes, I've done it a couple of times.