Driving standards

[F-UnitMad]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Many years ago if you passed your HGV test in a 3-axel rigid that also qailified you to drive a "wagon & drag" with an A-Frame trailer but not an artic.

An A-frame wagon & drag takes considerably more skill to drive and reverse than an ordinary artic. I used to work for a Company that had one, and although I had several goes at shunting it around the yard, never took it out on the road - fortunately!!     

[SamThomas]

7 hours ago, JDW said:

 

technically it could move around so long as items such as the fuel tank were also in the front section, but it couldn't in any meaningful sense be used or driven in such a state.

In practical use on the road it made little difference, but technically a bus with the drive axel  in the centre is a rigid vehicle with a trailer albeit perminatly connected - this information was given to me by a driver trainer who worked for one of the bus companies in the TfL Bendybus  days.

Irrespective of the legal requirements they trained their drivers up to pass their tests in them as buses with trailers (don't know what class they are though).

[SamThomas]

35 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

An A-frame wagon & drag takes considerably more skill to drive and reverse than an ordinary artic. I used to work for a Company that had one, and although I had several goes at shunting it around the yard, never took it out on the road - fortunately!!     

An "ordinary artic" is relatively easy to reverse, especially with a tri-axel trailer*** on it - a wagon & drag does take a lot of skill, I'd like to have a go with one sometime. However, some people make it look so easy ;

 

*** the exceptions are those horrid single axel "urbans" with the axel right at the back.

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

.......not one single caravanner could reverse into a space in one go       and some really managed to get tied in knots attempting it. There really should be a seperate driving test for towing caravans.

There may be, at least for some.

 

Having just renewed my licence (age) and got my first photo version, I notice that I am authorised to drive a car plus trailer as a separate category (Group BE), which it wasn't on my old paper one, IIRC.

 

I presumably have "grandfather rights" having passed my (car) test before a certain date (similarly, I have motorcycle Group A rather than A1 or A2). It therefore looks as if newly qualified drivers might have to be tested additionally for trailering.

 

I have a vague recollection of hearing this was in the pipeline, but never that it had actually come into force. 

 

Are there any youngsters (or examiners) out there who can clarify what extra hoops (if any) need to be jumped through, or is it just there in preparation for such requirements to be imposed in future?

 

John

Edited January 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[laurenceb]

From memory, when artic buses first came into the UK drivers needed a have licence.  Whether this was an operator rule or a legal requirement I don't know.

[APOLLO]

Trucking - The British version !!!

 

 

Brit15

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, laurenceb said:

From memory, when artic buses first came into the UK drivers needed a have licence.  Whether this was an operator rule or a legal requirement I don't know.

IIRC the first "bendies" were trialled in Sheffield & they had 3 x Mercs & 3 x Leylands (which soon fell by the wayside). They had to have special dispensation to run them.

They had three axels #1 -steering, #2 driving & the #3 on the trailer was a rear steer so they took up the same road space radius (more or less) as a standard bus.

 

Irrespective of legal requirements responsible operators would have trained their drivers with these vehicles.

[SamThomas]

I remember that one Apollo & also remember the fuss about the stuffed hedgehog (& the fuss about the "microwaved" kitten in Hale & Pace, but I digress) because some people thought it was a real one !

 

IIARM Rowen Atkinson had a class I licence.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by SamThomas

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There may be, at least for some.

 

Having just renewed my licence (age) and got my first photo version, I notice that I am authorised to drive a car plus trailer as a separate category (Group BE), which it wasn't on my old paper one, IIRC.

 

I presumably have "grandfather rights" having passed my (car) test before a certain date (similarly, I have motorcycle Group A rather than A1 or A2). It therefore looks as if newly qualified drivers might have to be tested additionally for trailering.

 

I have a vague recollection of hearing this was in the pipeline, but never that it had actually come into force. 

 

Are there any youngsters (or examiners) out there who can clarify what extra hoops (if any) need to be jumped through, or is it just there in preparation for such requirements to be imposed in future?

 

John

As @Jonboy says above, it changed just about a month ago - previously, anyone who passed their test after 1998 needed to do a separate test to tow a trailer over a certain weight - the exact weight depending on whether it was braked or unbraked, the tow vehicle, and exactly when you passed your test. Now you can tow anything as long as it's within the plated capacity of the tow vehicle. I don't know if that also applies to CE and DE for current C or D licence holders - I presume so as it was all part of the government's "make it easier to get more truck drivers" plan...

 

I've towed a small (500kg unbraked) trailer, and can say I have absolutely no intention of trying anything bigger without some proper training first!

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Nick C said:

As @Jonboy says above, it changed just about a month ago - previously, anyone who passed their test after 1998 needed to do a separate test to tow a trailer over a certain weight - the exact weight depending on whether it was braked or unbraked, the tow vehicle, and exactly when you passed your test. Now you can tow anything as long as it's within the plated capacity of the tow vehicle. I don't know if that also applies to CE and DE for current C or D licence holders - I presume so as it was all part of the government's "make it easier to get more truck drivers" plan...

 

I've towed a small (500kg unbraked) trailer, and can say I have absolutely no intention of trying anything bigger without some proper training first!

Since I bought a small SUV, I can't even see my half-tonne trailer in the mirrors unless I'm going round corners. I've had to fit "flagpoles" to the corners to be able to reverse it sensibly!

 

I therefore think a bigger one (or a caravan) might actually be easier. 

 

John

[Nick C]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

Since I bought a small SUV, I can't even see my half-tonne trailer in the mirrors unless I'm going round corners. I've had to fit "flagpoles" to the corners to be able to reverse it sensibly!

 

I therefore think a bigger one (or a caravan) might actually be easier. 

 

John

Actually, that's a good point! Plus the little ones bounce around all over the place when empty, so a bigger one would probably be more stable.

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Actually, that's a good point! Plus the little ones bounce around all over the place when empty, so a bigger one would probably be more stable.

Mine's fairly heftily-built, with carriage of building materials in mind rather than camping gear (10" Mini-sized wheels rather than 8" Lambretta-sized) but, yes, they do bounce when empty.

 

John

Edited January 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[laurenceb]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

IIRC the first "bendies" were trialled in Sheffield & they had 3 x Mercs & 3 x Leylands (which soon fell by the wayside). They had to have special dispensation to run them.

They had three axels #1 -steering, #2 driving & the #3 on the trailer was a rear steer so they took up the same road space radius (more or less) as a standard bus.

 

Irrespective of legal requirements responsible operators would have trained their drivers with these vehicles.

The non Leylands were MAN, they later went to Midland Red West

[SamThomas]

18 minutes ago, laurenceb said:

The non Leylands were MAN, they later went to Midland Red West

Oh well, close - at least I was correct with the first letter !

[JDW]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

IIRC the first "bendies" were trialled in Sheffield & they had 3 x Mercs & 3 x Leylands (which soon fell by the wayside). They had to have special dispensation to run them.

They had three axels #1 -steering, #2 driving & the #3 on the trailer was a rear steer so they took up the same road space radius (more or less) as a standard bus.

 

Irrespective of legal requirements responsible operators would have trained their drivers with these vehicles.

 

I've heard more than one person try and explain that the steered rear axle "makes the back wheels follow the same path as the front ones" which would be a rather interesting concept!! I've yet to drive a rear-steer artic, though have a couple of longer-term plans for work that might see me get to have a go...! 

Surprisingly, in some situations artics can be more manoeuvrable than a 12-metre bus - given the choice, unless a route physically prevented it fitting, for ease of driving I'd have taken a Volvo artic over an Enviro500 (tri-axle, 12-metre 'decker, with a non-steered tag axle).

[SamThomas]

18 minutes ago, laurenceb said:

The non Leylands were MAN, they later went to Midland Red West

Oh well, close - at least I was correct with the first letter !

[SamThomas]

2 minutes ago, JDW said:

 

I've heard more than one person try and explain that the steered rear axle "makes the back wheels follow the same path as the front ones" which would be a rather interesting concept!! I've yet to drive a rear-steer artic, though have a couple of longer-term plans for work that might see me get to have a go...! 

Surprisingly, in some situations artics can be more manoeuvrable than a 12-metre bus - given the choice, unless a route physically prevented it fitting, for ease of driving I'd have taken a Volvo artic over an Enviro500 (tri-axle, 12-metre 'decker, with a non-steered tag axle).

I think with the rear steer buses the rear steering wheels more or less followed the driving axel so that the trailer did not cut in.

 

I've driven bin lorries with rear steer - some before the drive axel & some behind the drive axel & they react very differently. However, you can reverse into some very tight spaces with them, the problem being you can sometimes wedge youself in because the do not follow the same lines going forwards !

[SamThomas]

27 minutes ago, laurenceb said:

The non Leylands were MAN, they later went to Midland Red West

Found an image of one of the originals - you can clearly see the rear single wheel at an angle.

[boxbrownie]

26 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

I think with the rear steer buses the rear steering wheels more or less followed the driving axel so that the trailer did not cut in.

 

I've driven bin lorries with rear steer - some before the drive axel & some behind the drive axel & they react very differently. However, you can reverse into some very tight spaces with them, the problem being you can sometimes wedge youself in because the do not follow the same lines going forwards !

Some of the rear steer mechanisms  steer differently at different speeds and also when in reverse, it’s like some cars with slight rear wheel steering, at high speed the rears steer one way for stability at low speeds they steer the opposite way for manoeuvrability.

[JDW]

Getting very off topic here but that's a good point about the difference between how things steer reversing versus forwards! Our tri-axle double-deckers didn't have rear steering on the third axle, which meant they weant through tyres fairly quickly. The tyre scrub on tight corners was noticeable! They also went through a lot of drive axles, because of the stress of the sideways load on them, so we almost always had one off service minus a drive axle waiting for one to come back from being refurbished, as there was only a limited pool of them. 

 

The 21-metre Mercedes-Benz CapaCity has an extended rear section with twin axles. Axle three is driven, and the fourth behind it is steered, but the driver can de-activate the steering to reduce the tailswing when pulling away from kerbs, for example. I've not seen an English-language video on it, but German YouTube channel BusTV and Norwegian channel Busmagasinet have both tested them.

[Titan]

15 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

There really should be a seperate driving test for towing caravans.

 

I was about to say yes there is, and has been for decades and make a point of you being out of touch.  However it seems that the requirement has now been removed as of a couple of weeks ago, and the rules have reverted to what they were prior to 1997 and passing a separate driving test is no longer necessary.  I always thought the way they quantified what you could and couldn't tow without a test was somewhat convoluted, and even encouraged the towing of a heavy trailer with a light vehicle in order to keep within the GTW requirement for which a test was not required, which was daft, as it would encourage someone with a caravan to choose a smaller car so they did not need to take the test.  It should have been simple - e.g. to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg you need to take a test.  However instead things seem to have taken a step backwards...

Edited January 6, 2022 by Titan

[Jonboy]

I dunno there were some perverse situations in the old rules when you look at who realistically ends up using trailers day to day.

 

E.g when you look at farming the reality was that a farmhand with a basic license could drive a tractor and trailer full of bales from harvest, but not a pickup and trailer with 6 of the same bales on it to feed livestock on the same license.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

E.g when you look at farming the reality was that a farmhand with a basic license could drive a tractor and trailer full of bales from harvest, but not a pickup and trailer with 6 of the same bales on it to feed livestock on the same license.

 

IIRC from someone I know who took her tractor test at agricultural college you can get a category F only licence  so you could drive the tractor and trailer and not be allowed to drive the pickup at all.

[Reorte]

Pretty certain (without actually checking) I'm entitled to tow a caravan. I never have done though and I'd certainly want some lessons before I did. Don't think I'd really want to tow anything at all beyond perhaps a light trailer a short distance (light enough that I could remove it and move it by hand if needs be ) without some sort of training, even informal.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Pretty certain (without actually checking) I'm entitled to tow a caravan.

 

I'm entitled to drive a seven and a half tonner with a trailer on the basis of having driven a Mini Metro around for half an hour or so.