Driving standards

[leopardml2341]

22 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

is it wrong to do 60mph in the left lane?

Some people think it's wrong to USE the left left; at least on the A50 hereabouts. 

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, leopardml2341 said:

Just wondering how a 'reason to suspect' might be determined.......?

 

The idea that if we can't determine who criminal suspects are we should assume everyone is one is not a sign of a healthy society.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Reorte

[Reorte]

47 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I am very much for it, if I am dumb/stupid/nasty enough to drive and try and use a phone, or not wear a seat belt or sit two feet from your rear bumper at 40 mph I’ll happily get caught and take the flack, it’s not a perfect system for sure but with the lack of “human” policing around nowadays what’s the alternative?

 

Treating everyone like a potential criminal is not acceptable; "what's the alternative?" is pretty much saying "we must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it."

 

When things reach this level I start finding the low risk from the criminals less obnoxious than the "solutions."

Edited June 9, 2022 by Reorte

[leopardml2341]

3 hours ago, leopardml2341 said:

Just wondering how a 'reason to suspect' might be determined.......?

 

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

The idea that if we can't determine who criminal suspects are we should assume everyone is one is not a sign of a healthy society.

That's getting dangerously close to the 'If we didn't see it, it didn't happen school of thought'.

 

Not sure that's a healthy sociological model.

Edited June 9, 2022 by leopardml2341

[SamThomas]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Whilst there are less police on the roads, I think with the growing use of video evidence submissions for bad driving against pedestrians, bikes and other road vehicles we will see a resurgence of traffic policing driven by general public submissions with fines/prosecutions following.

Agreed, but evidence from dashcams as an example is still very much an "after the event" action.

 

I'm convinced that pro-active traffic policing is better long term. There is the embarassment of being actually stopped & of course plod can keep you there for a while checking things & adding to the inconveiniance.

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Bet it won't identify a singularly p!ssed or drugged up driver though.

 

Mike.

Of course not, but Traffic Policemen are pretty good at spotting those "worth a pull".

 

There is the added benefit that those stopped may just hallen to lose their wheels if there is no insurance or MOT - something else that "after the event" enforcement will not detect.

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I am very much for it, if I am dumb/stupid/nasty enough to drive and try and use a phone, or not wear a seat belt or sit two feet from your rear bumper at 40 mph I’ll happily get caught and take the flack, it’s not a perfect system for sure but with the lack of “human” policing around nowadays what’s the alternative?

Exactly my point - we need less technology & more human input.

 

There are many people like yourself who will happily take a hit" for the occasional time they get it wrong, but the passive type of enforcement so loved by the authorities will not educate the bad/irresponsibe drivers at all.

[johnofwessex]

A large part of the 'punishment' for involvement in crime is being arrested, taken to the Police Station, put in the cells etc so yes being stopped, having your vehicle siezed etc does have an impact that a remote summons does not.

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Exactly my point - we need less technology & more human input.

 

There are many people like yourself who will happily take a hit" for the occasional time they get it wrong, but the passive type of enforcement so loved by the authorities will not educate the bad/irresponsibe drivers at all.

But constantly getting such fines will moderate their behaviour. 

A friend of mine lost his licence through too many speeding fines. He mentioned to me that it was his bosses fault for hassling him to get to jobs quicker.

I told him that was BS, because the boss didn't pay the fines, nor did he nominate himself to take any points against his licence. 

Now he has to look for a new job within walking/cycling distance. 

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But constantly getting such fines will moderate their behaviour. 

A friend of mine lost his licence through too many speeding fines. He mentioned to me that it was his bosses fault for hassling him to get to jobs quicker.

I told him that was BS, because the boss didn't pay the fines, nor did he nominate himself to take any points against his licence. 

Now he has to look for a new job within walking/cycling distance. 

It's not that simple for some drivers.

 

I've worked as an agency HGV driver & seen the pressure some employers put on drivers - some well known names that have a nice public image can be just as bad as the shoestring outfits. These pressures can range from skipping the daily walk round/setting your start time on the tacho when you get into the cab, not when you actually turn up for duty & driving far too fast for prevailing conditions. Not forgetting setting the tacho for break when loading unloading.

 

As for me, no way would I comply with any of that - any faults & I would not take the truck out, hence not being sent to some companies. For me, plenty of agency work about anyway.

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

I've worked as an agency HGV driver & seen the pressure some employers put on drivers - some well known names that have a nice public image can be just as bad as the shoestring outfits. These pressures can range from skipping the daily walk round/setting your start time on the tacho when you get into the cab, not when you actually turn up for duty & driving far too fast for prevailing conditions. Not forgetting setting the tacho for break when loading unloading.

 

Any "business" that relies on its employees breaking the law in order to make a profit is nothing more than a criminal racket and should be prosecuted as such.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

Any "business" that relies on its employees breaking the law in order to make a profit is nothing more than a criminal racket and should be prosecuted as such.

 

That's business for you. 

[SamThomas]

18 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Any "business" that relies on its employees breaking the law in order to make a profit is nothing more than a criminal racket and should be prosecuted as such.

Indeed, but the haulage business is very good at covering up these activities.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Any "business" that relies on its employees breaking the law in order to make a profit is nothing more than a criminal racket and should be prosecuted as such.

Bad bosses are very difficult to do anything about.  To prosecute them, you would need evidence.  No doubt the pressure is undocumented.  No doubt the boss would say he tells them to do everything all legal like, but they're all lazy and sack them.

 

So you'd need a group of workers to make statements to the police, and "applying pressure" would itself need to be a criminal offence (I don't know whether or not it is), and it would have to carry gaol sentences to have any weight.  If he's only fined, he charges that to the business and carries on regardless.  If the fine's too big, he goes bust and starts up again under another name. 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But constantly getting such fines will moderate their behaviour. 

A friend of mine lost his licence through too many speeding fines. He mentioned to me that it was his bosses fault for hassling him to get to jobs quicker.

I told him that was BS, because the boss didn't pay the fines, nor did he nominate himself to take any points against his licence. 

Now he has to look for a new job within walking/cycling distance. 

 

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

It's not that simple for some drivers.

 

I've worked as an agency HGV driver & seen the pressure some employers put on drivers - some well known names that have a nice public image can be just as bad as the shoestring outfits. These pressures can range from skipping the daily walk round/setting your start time on the tacho when you get into the cab, not when you actually turn up for duty & driving far too fast for prevailing conditions. Not forgetting setting the tacho for break when loading unloading.

 

As for me, no way would I comply with any of that - any faults & I would not take the truck out, hence not being sent to some companies. For me, plenty of agency work about anyway.

The big supermarkets are the worst offenders.

[Tankerman]

11 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

The big supermarkets are the worst offenders.

 

That doesn't surprise me at all.

[PhilJ W]

23 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Bad bosses are very difficult to do anything about.  To prosecute them, you would need evidence.  No doubt the pressure is undocumented.  No doubt the boss would say he tells them to do everything all legal like, but they're all lazy and sack them.

 

So you'd need a group of workers to make statements to the police, and "applying pressure" would itself need to be a criminal offence (I don't know whether or not it is), and it would have to carry gaol sentences to have any weight.  If he's only fined, he charges that to the business and carries on regardless.  If the fine's too big, he goes bust and starts up again under another name. 

The chickens are now coming home to roost. Due to Covid and Brexit combined there is a serious shortage of HGV drivers. Applying pressure is not an offence unless it results in a breach of other regulations such as health and safety.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, SamThomas said:

It's not that simple for some drivers.

 

I've worked as an agency HGV driver & seen the pressure some employers put on drivers - some well known names that have a nice public image can be just as bad as the shoestring outfits. These pressures can range from skipping the daily walk round/setting your start time on the tacho when you get into the cab, not when you actually turn up for duty & driving far too fast for prevailing conditions. Not forgetting setting the tacho for break when loading unloading.

 

As for me, no way would I comply with any of that - any faults & I would not take the truck out, hence not being sent to some companies. For me, plenty of agency work about anyway.

As I pointed out, my friend lost his licence for following his bosses advice/demands. Now he has to find a new job and the boss needs to find a new tradie - probably at short notice because he has jobs to be installed.

So both lose.

 

Accumulating enough points, isn't something that comes along all at once - unless you really stupid, but creeps up on you. If you keep track (one should for obvious reasons), then you will notice that you are getting ever closer! Any driver who requires a licence for their work, needs to recognise how important it is to them.

 

I don't go along with the BS, that it will hurt them personally - they know the rules and need to act by them!

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

Treating everyone like a potential criminal is not acceptable; "what's the alternative?" is pretty much saying "we must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it."

 

When things reach this level I start finding the low risk from the criminals less obnoxious than the "solutions."

Is it treating everyone like a criminal or trying to protect everyone from potential criminals?

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Exactly my point - we need less technology & more human input.

 

There are many people like yourself who will happily take a hit" for the occasional time they get it wrong, but the passive type of enforcement so loved by the authorities will not educate the bad/irresponsibe drivers at all.

Absolutely agree, I am happy to prove myself innocent on the balance of that enquiry could find a potential illegal act before it happens.

 

edit : my post referred to illegal acts of using a phone or tailgating, I hope it didn’t give the impression it’s the kind of act I actually take part in, I like to think I am better than that as I am at the time of life now where getting somewhere fast for the fun of it or treating the roads like a racetrack seems to me to be a futile expression of male prowess, or female equality 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I caught a bit of a programme on TV this morning about autonomous cars and driving, comparing the MB, Tesla and something else.

The interviewer came out with what I thought a blinding comment, (something along the lines of) cars aren't up to 100% driver input free standards yet, and until they are there isn't a way to travel without having to to actually do some driving, silly me thinking that was what public transport was all about, as maligned as it is. If the money spent on clogging roads up with clever cars was spent on developing reasons for people not to need to have to use a car in the first place we'd all be better off, a strategy totally lost on the government and motor trade.

 

Mike.

[kevinlms]

12 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I caught a bit of a programme on TV this morning about autonomous cars and driving, comparing the MB, Tesla and something else.

The interviewer came out with what I thought a blinding comment, (something along the lines of) cars aren't up to 100% driver input free standards yet, and until they are there isn't a way to travel without having to to actually do some driving, silly me thinking that was what public transport was all about, as maligned as it is. If the money spent on clogging roads up with clever cars was spent on developing reasons for people not to need to have to use a car in the first place we'd all be better off, a strategy totally lost on the government and motor trade.

 

Mike.

Yes, I agree with you regarding self driving cars, where do they go once they have dropped you off? Yes, mightily convenient for you to be dropped off outside your destination, then what? Driving off to some out of town communal car park, waiting for you to summon it back, seems to somehow miss the point. Driving round in endless circles is even worse, creating yet more congestion.

 

Yes people say, they are pool cars, which is great if you're off to the airport/station or just carry a laptop to/from work. But what about all the plebs who use a car for their family and personal belongs, such as baby/children/dog with prams and lots of 'stuff'? Not forgetting those with disability issues, along with wheelchairs etc. Some people, lets be honest, are downright slobs with vehicles and should NEVER use a shared vehicle! How does a pooled self drive car dispose of the food rubbish?

 

Or tradies with a vehicle full of tools & equipment, hardly going to happen, you need ownership and virtually exclusive use.

[MarkC]

5 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Indeed, but the haulage business is very good at covering up these activities.

As someone who about 10 years ago was almost wiped out on a motorway by a foreign-plated HGV whose driver was falling asleep at the wheel & swerving all over the road, I can attest to that. I was even more horrified when I had the courtesy of a follow-up call from the Police Officer who responded to my 999 call reporting the vehicle's behaviour.

 

The driver was found to have been driving for almost 30 hours, bar the 90 minute crossing of the English Channel. Lots of dodgy tacho records found - this wasn't the bloke's first time driving excessive hours, on a regular trip from the Black Sea (I'll be no more specific than that) to the Newcastle-upon-Tyne area. A casual glance would, according to the Officer, have shown no issues. Even more scary was the comment that, to the Officer's surprise, the driver actually blew 'under the limit', albeit only just. He mentioned that it wasn't unusual to find drivers over the limit when they were 'tugged'. Also, the vehicle was overloaded, had 2 dodgy tyres & defective lighting...

 

I for one have always regretted the withdrawal of TrafPol vehicles, both marked & unmarked - this terrifying incident just reinforced that.

 

Mark

[SamThomas]

5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

 

The big supermarkets are the worst offenders.

Indeed, & I have worked for a number of companies in the business of moving food around.

 

They make sure that they get the driver to sign for "infringements" & hate it when the drivers make notes on the sheets such as "route badly planned with regard to resting places.

So, when VDSA check up all the records look like they (the employers) are squeaky clean & of course it looks like the drivers are always at fault.

One major supermarket I worked for often loaded the 18 tonners with drinks on the front making thre front axel overweight (although the overall weight was OK). Fortunatly, they had an axel weigher but did not really encourage it's use & it was often defective anyway. However, if a truck felt "wrong" (& a decent driver can tell) I would break the seals, have a look & if not happy would insist on it being reloaded).

[leopardml2341]

As this topic is about driving standards, who wants to confess to having a 'points free' licence since they passed their first test? 

 

Making a swift, but within the speed limit,  exit 🚔

 

Car licence in 1982 for me.

PSV in 1996.

Edited June 10, 2022 by leopardml2341