Driving standards

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-61813986

 

Surely they should be banned?

 

These people are clearly not fit to hold a licence

Better something more stringent than just a ban…..f———-g animals!

[johnofwessex]

Brake has made the point that driving is a licensed activity and if you dont meet the standards you should not be driving.

 

Simple

 

I suggest that if you drive when banned its straight in front of a judge for contempt of court.

[big jim]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I have had a lycra clad cyclist deliberately pull into the centre of the road in front of me rather than move over to let me pass. 

Unfortunately the state of some roads means I’ve got to position myself toward the centre at times to avoid riding into potholes or over frankly unsafe surfaces, I did it the other week up in silloth in a 30 limit, I was doing about 24 mph and a car drove right up to my back wheel and started blowing his horn, he then pulled alongside on a right hand curve, wound his window down and shouted to me ‘get in the kerb you c**t’ before swerving in front of me and brake checking me, unfortunately no camera on my bike or is have reported it

 

Thankfully for every 50 or so decent drivers you always get one like that, most drivers are courteous and obey the rules but it’s always that one who has to spoil it, however the same can be said about cyclists, Monday just gone I rode from Stratford to euston via London city on the dedicated cycle lanes and obeyed all the traffic signals, I was amazed by the amount of ‘office workers’ who just ignored the lights and weaved in and out of traffic and pedestrians

[boxbrownie]

I can’t see you clad in Lycra Jim…..or let me rephrase that….I don’t want to see you clad in Lycra 🤣

[big jim]

44 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I can’t see you clad in Lycra Jim…..or let me rephrase that….I don’t want to see you clad in Lycra 🤣

sorry…

[JJGraphics]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

It was either a very old Audi or the ABS wasn’t working I assume?

 

It was a very shiny new one driven by someone who could barely see over the steering wheel. Don't know about the ABS but I think the vehicle was probably still doing about 50-55 mph after recovering from the loss of control and the driver was taken by surprise by the (quite usual) stationary queue of traffic going into the village.

John

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, JJGraphics said:

the (quite usual) stationary queue of traffic going into the village.

 

There's usually a parked car or two on the left hand side going into Wargrave from Henley, that you have to weave round before reaching the traffic lights. There can often be a queue to get past these. But I'm fairly sure the 30 mph limit signs are well before you get to that point.

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

It was either a very old Audi or the ABS wasn’t working I assume?

No, just an idiot behind the wheel.

[fulton]

I had a spell cycling to work but after witnessing two near misses , I decided it was simply too dangerous and sadly sold my bike, I have since cycled in Germany, where they do have proper cycle routes, not just a white line at the side of an already too narrow busy road.

[boxbrownie]

46 minutes ago, big jim said:

sorry…

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 

[boxbrownie]

15 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

No, just an idiot behind the wheel.

You’d still have a grand effort getting the tyres to squeal and produce smoke…..unless of course it was travelling sideways 😉

[boxbrownie]

50 minutes ago, big jim said:

sorry…

Do that again and I’ll have no option but to inform Andy about your poor choice of picture venue……honestly…..a wheely bin? 🤣
 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by boxbrownie

[ejstubbs]

19 hours ago, Reorte said:

Does it have to be proven to that level of proof? IANAL so may have gotten this completely wrong but whilst criminal cases need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt civil cases might only require on the balance of probability. Quite what offences such as this are I don't know (I don't really know the difference between civil and criminal cases).

 

In a criminal lawsuit, the conflict is generally between the government authority and a person or persons.  In civil cases, the conflict is generally between two or more private parties.  The trial process and punishment are different between criminal and civil law.  In a criminal case you are found guilty or not guilty.  In a civil case one party wins and the other loses, and typically the loser has to pay some form of restitution to the winner.  You can't be fined, sent to jail or suffer any other statutory punishment for losing a civil case (though you can, up to and including being jailed, if you lose a civil case and fail to provide the restitution ordered by the civil court e.g. paying damages to the other party - but that's because failure to comply with the direction of the court is a criminal offence).

 

Driving without due care and attention (I think more properly referred to these days as "careless driving") is a criminal offence.  However, leaving a gap of 1.5m when passing a cyclist* is not enshrined in law, but it is given as guidance in Highway Code Rule 163.  As The Highway Code itself states in its introduction:

 

The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability.

 

So failure to follow the guidance in the Highway Code can be argued to constitute driving without due care and attention, which is defined in law as:

 

1. Driving that falls below the standard expected of a competent driver; or

2. Driving that does not show reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or pathways.

 

In simple terms, the Highway Code defines the "standard expected of a competent driver", so failure to comply with even the rules which do not have a specific legal underpinning (i.e. the ones which do not use the MUST/MUST NOT wording) can be construed as careless driving.  (I'd also suggest that scaring the bejeesus out of someone not cocooned in a steel shell by passing them unreasonably close and/or fast probably fails the second criterion as well, pretty much regardless of what else the Highway Code says.)

 

Given that the passing distance given in Highway Code Rule 163 is guidance rather than an absolute specification, there is scope for variation in the precise interpretation by the court.  Exacerbating factors (such as failing the 'attitude test') may also affect the final judgement.

 

* At speeds of up to 30mph - it says you should leave more room at higher speeds.

[JJGraphics]

9 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

You’d still have a grand effort getting the tyres to squeal and produce smoke…..unless of course it was travelling sideways 😉

It certainly was not going in a straight line when it nearly hit me, more crab-wise as the driver tried to get back on to the correct side of the road.

John

Edited June 17, 2022 by JJGraphics

[JJGraphics]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's usually a parked car or two on the left hand side going into Wargrave from Henley, that you have to weave round before reaching the traffic lights. There can often be a queue to get past these. But I'm fairly sure the 30 mph limit signs are well before you get to that point.

 

You are right that the 30 mph limit is a good way back from where the end of the queue was . . . but speed limits don't apply if you have an Audi or a BMW! I travel that stretch of road fairly often and drive as close to the 40 mph limit as I safely can but am often overtaken by aforementioned makes of cars.

John

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, MarkC said:

That's where dashcams would come in handy - especially if you can catch their fizzog clearly in shot. Beat them at their own game... 

Could be very uselful if cycles had identification plates that could be seen by a dashcam.

[SamThomas]

14 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I believe that is what they are told to do to make safe progress, if traffic cannot overtake they cannot cut the cyclist up……seems a recipe for confrontation though and no way to ease the multi use of crowded roads.

That's a very fair point - similar to HGV drivers are taught to postition the truck to "block off" drivers of smaller vehicles if it is not safe for them to overtake if the smaller vehicle's actions would cause the HGV to lose speed/momentum.

 

Similar to bin-lorry drivers - they are taught to sometime block the road on purpose to give the loaders a safe area to work.

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, JJGraphics said:

It certainly was not going in a straight line when it nearly hit me, more crab-wise as the driver tried to get back on to the correct side of the road.

John

It is possible to lock all the wheels in a vehicle equipped with ABS - if you brake very hard & all the wheels lock at precisly the same time they can stay locked - that's why ABS will not save you on the ice.

 

Having said that I suppose that on very up to date vehicles they may use an accurate speed reference as well as the wheels, then the ABS should alway work.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Could be very uselful if cycles had identification plates that could be seen by a dashcam.

What difference does it make? All motorised vehicles have identification plates and that doesn't stop umpteen videos on Youtube of poor driving.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

It is possible to lock all the wheels in a vehicle equipped with ABS - if you brake very hard & all the wheels lock at precisly the same time they can stay locked - that's why ABS will not save you on the ice.

 

Having said that I suppose that on very up to date vehicles they may use an accurate speed reference as well as the wheels, then the ABS should alway work.

I was involved with the development team from Teves for the first mass production vehicle fitment of ABS back in the late 70’s/80’s and even in the early days we never ever experienced the situation you describe, if we had it would never have got into production, ABS fails to work on ice because it relies on the friction coefficient of the surface your braking on, if there is no friction the brakes think your stationary, having said that I’d rather have ABS fitted than not in any weather conditions.

[caradoc]

On 16/06/2022 at 11:15, Enterprisingwestern said:

they pursue the motorist then its yet another underhand way to clobber the motorist.

 

Better a few motorists get clobbered in the pocket, to make the message sink in, than cyclists getting clobbered for real. 

 

21 hours ago, jcredfer said:

and absolutely disgraceful, on the part of the cyclists, too.  They're on a, comparatively, slow moving cycle, what is a few seconds going to add to any route they might be taking, anyway.  Mindless!!

 

Bear in mind that after stopping it takes more than just a press on the accelerator pedal for a cyclist to get going again ! 

Having said that, I fully agree that there has to be mutual respect on the roads.

 

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

I was involved with the development team from Teves for the first mass production vehicle fitment of ABS back in the late 70’s/80’s and even in the early days we never ever experienced the situation you describe, if we had it would never have got into production, ABS fails to work on ice because it relies on the friction coefficient of the surface your braking on, if there is no friction the brakes think your stationary, having said that I’d rather have ABS fitted than not in any weather conditions.

I see what you are saying but I've managed it myself a few times on different vehicles when being "brutal".

Maybe, ABS systems lose their edge on older vehicles ?

[PhilJ W]

Unless the idiot had switched the ABS off.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

I was involved with the development team from Teves for the first mass production vehicle fitment of ABS back in the late 70’s/80’s and even in the early days we never ever experienced the situation you describe, if we had it would never have got into production, ABS fails to work on ice because it relies on the friction coefficient of the surface your braking on, if there is no friction the brakes think your stationary, having said that I’d rather have ABS fitted than not in any weather conditions.

Looking at it from the opposite viewpoint, traditional cruise control is advised not to be used in wet slippery conditions, because if wheels lose traction the CC can cause decent acceleration, which is the last thing you want. The right foot is vastly better at controlling speed in poor conditions. Vehicles fitted with radar based CC may be different.

 

Agree totally with what you said about ABS and sometimes it's a surprise when it cuts in - usually left wheels on wet gravel & right hand on bitumen. Very rare for ABS to cut in when I drive.

[johnofwessex]

58 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Unless the idiot had switched the ABS off.

 

It is switchable on many vehicles, in particular I believe German ones because ABS& snow or gravel isnt a happy combination