Layout Substructure ("Baseboard") Techniques and Materials

[Andy Hayter]

Good question Rick,

 

In my case itis a case of - if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again.

 

I have tried accurate measurement - not so bad but a much tighter fit than it should be.  I assume you are not supposed to use a hammer to get the two boards together - nor a crow bar to part them again.   I also noted a pronounced curve in the boards when joined together (due to the stresses imposed.

 

I have tried the set both male dowels the wrong way round on the holes and then press the other board up against it to get the registration marks for drilling (the dowels have a small spike in the back to do this.  This was visibly better - no bend - and operationally better - I only need clamps to pull the boards together and a screw driver to prize them apart.  Still not ideal.

 

Back to the first joints, I removed one dowel and drilled a new hole for the male dowel and then used method 2 to locate the female dowel.  Result perfect fit - possibly more luck than judgement.  So for me - locate the first set with precise measurement, and the second using the locating spike on the back of the male fitting.  The first set will ensure perfect registration at that end at least. 

 

Other things that I am sure are important:

 

I am almost certain these are 1" dowels - a 25mm drill bit is just a tad too small (But its all I have).  With 25mm holes the dowels will fit - but only with a hammer.  Not ideal

For accuracy you really need a pillar drill - I haven't got one, so rely on a hand drill and by eye verticality - not ideal. 

[Andy Hayter]

Oh and the "cheats' way".

 

Get some 5 mm ply.  Cut pairs of end the same size as your baseboard ends.  Clamp the two together and drill through to accept the dowels.  Screw thin ply sheaths to the ends of your boards and insert dowels - you will need a 10mm hole drilled into the female side to accept the male part of the dowel. 

 

From the above, you will guess I had no 5 mm ply.

[Black Sheep]

I'm finally planning my loft boards, and ma considering chipboard arches for legs, the layout isn't going anywhere and under it is loft storage

 

I welcome opinions on chipboard for this use (I'm presuming it to be more stable than mdf?

[peter220950]

 

[ As an aside, can someone please advise on a good way of ensuring absolutely correct alignment of those brass baseboard alignment plugs -- commonly known as "Pattern Maker's Dowels" -- as they're fitted inside the join, which makes aligning them difficult? Probably already exists somewhere on RMWEB, but a pointer from this thread would be appropriate. Thanks. ]

 

Rick

.

 

Not sure that I'm as happy with the brass ones that fit into the ends as the larger steel pattern makers dowels. If it's possible to do it the ideal is to clamp the boards together and run a small pilot drill through both ends at once, thus providing a common point for the dowels. The holes are then opened out and the dowels screwed in. (Note these are threaded sockets not the brass dowels, but I think the principle is the same.)

 

 

 

 

However this isn't always possible, and in such cases I have two options.

 

the first is a complete cheat and involves making the end pieces separately and once they mate together they can be attached to the boards,

 

 

 

 

 

this is o.k when the boards are being built, but less use if you've already built them.

 

This is where I find the steel dowels are better, I get mine from John Burn in Birmingham.

 

The socket is formed, with flat Forstner drill bit, on one side of the board joint, and the middle is drilled out to the size of the male plug. The male piece is then inserted backwards

 

 

and the boards are bolted or clamped together. A pointed pin on the rear of the male piece then punches a marker into the other board. A new recess is then drilled, the male pin is removed and put into the second board, right way around, and the female part is then installed into the first board.

 

 

Hope this makes sense.  Again it's another reason to avoid softwood if possible as the drill bit doesn't always run true, hence my preference now to drill them in a pillar drill before fixing to the layout.

 

Peter

[Mallard60022]

I'm finally planning my loft boards, and ma considering chipboard arches for legs, the layout isn't going anywhere and under it is loft storage

 

I welcome opinions on chipboard for this use (I'm presuming it to be more stable than mdf?

Both not very 'clever' due to various problems IMO, although a manufacturer of boards uses MDF and it looks OK. (See their ads).

Q

[The Stationmaster]

I'm finally planning my loft boards, and ma considering chipboard arches for legs, the layout isn't going anywhere and under it is loft storage

 

I welcome opinions on chipboard for this use (I'm presuming it to be more stable than mdf?

I do wonder about the longer term stability of chipboard and it can lack strength in shear from what I've seen with d-i-y furniture that used it as the main material.  But it might work better if you use the L girder principle on the verticals and one of the baseboard manufacturing firms definitely uses MDF in that way to make baseboard legs (really ).   But overall I would think ply would be a far better material (but also much more expensive no doubt) and in any case the cutting of arches from sheet is likely to be quite wasteful (or are you going to make them up instead of in one piece?).

[Allegheny1600]

Hi All,

A great topic that's been close to my heart since I first knocked a few boards together at the age of 14! (over thirty cough years ago!)

I've tried experimenting with various materials over the years and think there must be mileage in extruded aluminium for the frames at least but when I looked into it, there was a considerable cost disadvantage.

Another dead end I went down was plastic extrusions as used for electrical trunking. I chose stuff that was akin to 2" x 1" - of itself this was very flexible but I tried filling it with expanding foam! That needed to be done on warm days, my winter time experiment went dismally wrong.

Finally it occurred to me that a typical "baseboard" is little more than a largeish upside down drawer.

I detail my construction of such boards on post 16 of my topic about my German H0 layout: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84145-irgendwo-in-prussia/?p=1702705

This was using 9mm ply and 12mm x c.70mm timber framing, all from the local DIY superstore. It's been fully assembled in my spare room for several months now and seems stable.

Hope this is useful, Cheers,

John E.

[Black Sheep]

Both not very 'clever' due to various problems IMO, although a manufacturer of boards uses MDF and it looks OK. (See their ads).

Q

 

 

I do wonder about the longer term stability of chipboard and it can lack strength in shear from what I've seen with d-i-y furniture that used it as the main material.  But it might work better if you use the L girder principle on the verticals and one of the baseboard manufacturing firms definitely uses MDF in that way to make baseboard legs (really ).   But overall I would think ply would be a far better material (but also much more expensive no doubt) and in any case the cutting of arches from sheet is likely to be quite wasteful (or are you going to make them up instead of in one piece?).

 

 

I've realised I meant OSB board, I'm not sure how I'd be cost effective from the sheet, although part of the bench is to have slot car on it which is not as reliant on a stable and level base so the out cuts would probably find a use there if not on the layout. 

[57xx]

This is where I find the steel dowels are better, I get mine from John Burn in Birmingham.

 

How much are they from there? I had a look on their website but couldn't find them. I'm sure they must be cheaper than when they are bagged up and sold as a specialist model railway item (bit like adding "wedding" to the front of any word usually at least doubles the cost)

[peter220950]

How much are they from there? I had a look on their website but couldn't find them. I'm sure they must be cheaper than when they are bagged up and sold as a specialist model railway item (bit like adding "wedding" to the front of any word usually at least doubles the cost)

 

 

Not sure, as I bought them several years ago, they are on the website in several different sizes, sold in packs of 10, I would give them a call or e-mail, however the postage cost is likely to put the cost up a bit. - I use 25mm ones. and they certainly weren't as much as the baseboard manufactures were charging. Being a trade supplier the prices they quote will be excluding VAT.

 

http://www.johnburn.co.uk/product.php?grpId=308

 

scroll down to 'circular dowels for sizes and reference numbers

 

Peter

[Vanders]

I have to say I was vaguely horrified to see the article in this months Model Rail which showed how to build a baseboard with 2"x1" soft pine and Sundeala. I thought the scourge had been eradicated, but it seems it refuses to die.

[The Stationmaster]

I have to say I was vaguely horrified to see the article in this months Model Rail which showed how to build a baseboard with 2"x1" soft pine and Sundeala. I thought the scourge had been eradicated, but it seems it refuses to die.

The problem with Sundeala is that it has changed considerably over the years - it might even have come in different grades in the past(?), it definitely does now.  I had some Sundeala forming a baseboard top on my attic layout many years ago and the nearest modern equivalent to it would be MDF - in fact I was quite surprised to find out what modern Sundeala is

[boxbrownie]

Back to the "internal door" use, I have used them before without problem and presently have my Japanese N gauge layout on one door, I can assure you there is no warping what so ever and my set up will be an extreme as the door is attached along one longest edge with two hinges and supported at the "free end" by two chains from the roof at both extreme corners, there is NO support used between the corners and the board is still as straight today as when it was first installed over 5 years ago, and this is in my train shed in the garden, so the temperature does vary a lot during the year.

 

And just as testament to their robustness for the past two years the layout has had a "temporary" cover/worksurface over the layout so I can use it as a table top for my 7mm model building and test running, and a few of those Heljan loco's weight a far bit!   

[Guest]

The first "proper" layout I ever built was on a flush door and the latest is on the pine frame from a Wickes bi-fold door. Useless if you want to run loads of wiring underneath, heavy unless two people are available when a move is required. That said, they're stable and twist-free. It all depends what you use them for. Portable lightweight exhibition layouts... forget it. Home use? I can definitely see the attraction.

[Black Sheep]

I used a £12 door as a desk while a student suspended between a small desk and a fridge.

 

It lasted 7 years before no longer being needed

It was turned once in that time despite having computer monitors (not flat screens) and computers, printers etc piled on it.

[Black Sheep]

I used a £12 door as a desk while a student suspended between a small desk and a fridge.

 

It lasted 7 years before no longer being needed

It was turned once in that time despite having computer monitors (not flat screens) and computers, printers etc piled on it.

[bourneagain]

Other things that I am sure are important:

 

I am almost certain these are 1" dowels - a 25mm drill bit is just a tad too small (But its all I have).  With 25mm holes the dowels will fit - but only with a hammer.  Not ideal

For accuracy you really need a pillar drill - I haven't got one, so rely on a hand drill and by eye verticality - not ideal. 

There`s quite a useful YOU TUBE video entitled:-

 

Drill a "90 degree" hole-with a "cordless drill"

 

That may prove useful when wanting to drill level horizontal or vertical pilot holes or to fit cabinet makers or bullet type dowels in your baseboard ends and you are unable to use or pocess a pillar drill.

The K&S Metals range appears to have the necessary internal diameter tube to match drill sizes.

 

Simple ideas are usually the best. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

A while back, the NGS Journal had a competition for layout designs (N of course) that could go on a door. I contributed four trackplans but suggested that it was not a good idea to lay track on the door itself.

 

But I do think it possibly a good idea to use the door as the base of a "layout box". Three sides of the door would have rectangular plywood sides to provide a backscene with the fourth side having a profile cut plywood. Attached to this plywood a framework (ply or softwood) would support the trackbed.

 

The advantage of this is that it really is rigid, has storage space for stock etc, and can be put on ordinary trestles but with the trackbed at a reasonable height.

[SJS]

Hi All,

A great topic that's been close to my heart since I first knocked a few boards together at the age of 14! (over thirty cough years ago!)

I've tried experimenting with various materials over the years and think there must be mileage in extruded aluminium for the frames at least but when I looked into it, there was a considerable cost disadvantage.

Another dead end I went down was plastic extrusions as used for electrical trunking. I chose stuff that was akin to 2" x 1" - of itself this was very flexible but I tried filling it with expanding foam! That needed to be done on warm days, my winter time experiment went dismally wrong.

Finally it occurred to me that a typical "baseboard" is little more than a largeish upside down drawer.

I detail my construction of such boards on post 16 of my topic about my German H0 layout: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84145-irgendwo-in-prussia/?p=1702705

This was using 9mm ply and 12mm x c.70mm timber framing, all from the local DIY superstore. It's been fully assembled in my spare room for several months now and seems stable.

Hope this is useful, Cheers,

John E.

Hi John as I mentioned earlier I do use aluminium framing. Yes it is more expensive but its much quicker, doesn't warp or rot and is lightweight. I recently built a new frame for my latest project and it took me around 1 hour to make the main frame. I still use wood for the roadbed etc. Personally I do not find building frames fun and so anything to reduce the effort is worth it.

 

Best wishes Mark

[Gilloverland]

I'm thinking about using this stuff for the framework of my next build:http://www.richardsonsuk.co.uk/25mm-square-tube-system/p47

[Black Sheep]

I'm thinking about using this stuff for the framework of my next build:http://www.richardsonsuk.co.uk/25mm-square-tube-system/p47

 

 

I'm thinking about it now too!

[boxbrownie]

In industry it is called "speed frame" and used for just about anything.............we my lathe bench is built from it, as was my Son's first "00" layout back in the 80's, good stuff............thinking about it my water butt stands on a frame of speedframe and that is now 30 years old, not rusted through yet 

[BR60103]

Mike Walton's Lostock Junction (used in the video of APT-P vs the Daleks) was rebuilt using aluminum studs (common over here for office walls and other constuction) in the 2x4 size.  He used it to replace previous wooden structures that had started to bend.

 

I use L-girder, usually of 1x3 - 1x3 size. The stability is supposed to come from having the boards glued at right angles. They are also supposed to resist bending when the end 1/5 is not supported. The flexibility of the design comes from the cross pieces' being movable in case you find that you need a point motor or a river at that point. I ruin the flexibility by mounting big slabs of Homasote on top of it instead of narrow pieces of subroadbed.

 

The proper sequence for making an L-girder is clamp, drill, screw, unscrew, glue, re-screw, wait until glue dries, remove the screws. Leaving the screws in destroys drills and saw blades later on.

I am wary of using plywood for this; I don't like screw into the side of the plies.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike Walton's Lostock Junction (used in the video of APT-P vs the Daleks) was rebuilt using aluminum studs (common over here for office walls and other constuction) in the 2x4 size.  He used it to replace previous wooden structures that had started to bend.

 

I use L-girder, usually of 1x3 - 1x3 size. The stability is supposed to come from having the boards glued at right angles. They are also supposed to resist bending when the end 1/5 is not supported. The flexibility of the design comes from the cross pieces' being movable in case you find that you need a point motor or a river at that point. I ruin the flexibility by mounting big slabs of Homasote on top of it instead of narrow pieces of subroadbed.

 

The proper sequence for making an L-girder is clamp, drill, screw, unscrew, glue, re-screw, wait until glue dries, remove the screws. Leaving the screws in destroys drills and saw blades later on.

I am wary of using plywood for this; I don't like screw into the side of the plies.

So presumably you use 'dimensional' timber David?  Can you get consistent good quality material or do you have to chose it with great care?   (and what sort of wood is it please?)

[sigtech]

My small 00 layout 'Sproston' is mounted on two standard internal plywood doors ( these were spare doors, that were found in the loft of the bungalow,- which is also where the layout is located).

They are fixed together with their hinges and an outside frame of 2x1 (approximately) timber screwed around all  the edges of the doors.This gives a layout size of 6' 8" x 5'2".

The layout sits an inch above one of the loft cross-beams- and is  mounted on a timber framework built in the loft, originally to support the central heating and house watertank - all of which was removed when we had a new combi boiler installed about 3 years ago. 

.Additional support legs were fitted at the four corners, attached to the loft flooring (chipboard) using metal ' l' brackets.

I have had no problems with this - all the point motors are' Seep', recessed into large cutouts in the bottom door surface to enable them to sit below the points., and other cutouts have been made for the undertrack magnets to be positioned to operate the B.K. pattern uncoupling system along with the 'Heljan turntable and wires for power feed and isolating sections (conventional D.C) 

The underboard wiring is tied loosely in looms/ bundles using cable ties.

 

One of the advantages is that you can cut holes in the surface using just a heavy duty Stanley Knife, the doors are very light, but strong, and in my case cost nothing...

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve)