Layout Substructure ("Baseboard") Techniques and Materials

[Black Sheep]

Yep - that's the stuff I use. Am building my second layout using it. The first survived a major move and a few years of abuse.

Would welcome any photos / further info please

[Sasquatch]

I've just remembered being asked to leave Wicks in Barnsley as I had 20 lengths of wood laid in the aisle as I compared them for straightness

 

Was about to buy the only 4 straight ones when asked to leave, attempts to explain were met with hostility so I did as asked.

That was extremely wrong of them. When choosing wood I'll take all day if I have to and even ask for another pallet to pick from. The problem is down to diminished forests, there's no such thing as real mahogany or clear red wood anymore. Bare in mind that just because wood is straight when you choose it, it may not stay that way.

 

I hope that you called the head office and told them how unhelpful and rude the staff were to you and that your valuable time had been wasted not to mention all the inconvenience.

 

Regards Shaun

[Black Sheep]

I was only 20 or 21 at the time and looked younger which might not have helped

[Joseph_Pestell]

The bit about cantilevering lost me for a bit, but I think perhaps I've got it now ..... are you saying that with a structure like this, 5' x 4'6" overall,

 

Structure.jpg

 

the legs would be better placed at positions B, the corners of the operating well, than at A, the outside corners of the whole thing?  Or up at the top where the board is wider (18"), perhaps even better at C?

 

My idea is to build a new subframe and legs from the square tubing, with the existing conventional baseboards (fibreboard with 2 x 1 softwood framing) sitting on top.  Currently the boards sit uneasily on a multi-legged wooden arrangement which is nearly impossible to level, so the idea of 4 legs with adjustable feet really appeals - if 4 would be enough?  The weight will be the weight of the boards - the scenery is very light, I'm not into plaster etc for that.  Also the thing won't be going anywhere outside the house, so the extra weight of steel over aluminium is not a problem if it means fewer legs.

 

At that size, I don't think it is going to matter too much. But probably the best solution is C.

[hayfield]

I've just remembered being asked to leave Wicks in Barnsley as I had 20 lengths of wood laid in the aisle as I compared them for straightness

 

Was about to buy the only 4 straight ones when asked to leave, attempts to explain were met with hostility so I did as asked.

 

 

I have just re-found a decent local timber yard, I thought they closed down as one of the multiples took over their old yard. Much better quality wood

[melmerby]

You could always go minimalist like I did.

4' x 2' x 10mm ply top, 100mm x 10mm ply sides nothing else. Nice and open to fit accesories.

It's virtually flat and I can stand on it. What more do you want?

 

 

Some of my boards are 4' x 3' and I have added a centre 10mm ply vertical brace.

They stand on timber legs with adjustable kitchen cabinet feet.

One leg each end is diagonally braced (you don't need to do both!)

 

Using 2" x 1" softwood bracing on ply is totally useless, the ply is more rigid than the softwood.

 

Keith

[BR60103]

L-girder:

I just dug out Linn Westcott's 1979 book on Benchwork (editor of Model Railroader)

He has a table of suggested maximum spans and overhangs for different sizes of girders.

1x2+1x2 6' between supports; 24" overhang at ends.

1x3+1x2 9'6" and 38".

1x4+1x2 13' and 4'4".

giving maximum girder lengths of 10',14', and 21'8".

 

He lists pine as the material. I don't know if he allows for splices in the wood.

 

On my layout, spans are usually under 3'. I like the top member wide enough to use my electric drill.

[Joseph_Pestell]

L-girder:

I just dug out Linn Westcott's 1979 book on Benchwork (editor of Model Railroader)

He has a table of suggested maximum spans and overhangs for different sizes of girders.

1x2+1x2 6' between supports; 24" overhang at ends.

1x3+1x2 9'6" and 38".

1x4+1x2 13' and 4'4".

giving maximum girder lengths of 10',14', and 21'8".

 

He lists pine as the material. I don't know if he allows for splices in the wood.

 

On my layout, spans are usually under 3'. I like the top member wide enough to use my electric drill.

 

Even I am surprised by the lengths suggested, more than I expected.

[BR60103]

Linn said that the ideal placement for the legs was 1/5 of the way in.

Somewhere. I seem to recall, he was working out the deflection based on how much would crack plaster scenery.

[The Stationmaster]

Even I am surprised by the lengths suggested, more than I expected.

Another US source also quotes, and illustrates, a 9'6" span with a 1x3+1x2 L girder but the girder in that case was made of strips of half inch plywood.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Another US source also quotes, and illustrates, a 9'6" span with a 1x3+1x2 L girder but the girder in that case was made of strips of half inch plywood.

 

That validates my idea. But if 9'6" is possible in softwood (as per LW), I would expect to be able to do a bit more with 12mm ply.

 

Either way, a lot less legs than Physicsman is using on KL2 but we know that he likes to over-engineer.

[Sasquatch]

As a cabinet maker I'd like to share some of my knowledge which would deem suitable.
The first thing regards timber and it's shrinkage. Wood falls into two basic types, hardwood which grows in the tropics such as mahogany and does not have growth rings and softwood which grows in the parts of the world which have seasons such as pine or oak. generally the faster a tree grows the larger the growth rings and the more a wood will shrink, warp, twist and bow.
Pine or Den which grow fast shrink more. Wood only shrinks across the grain, because of it's tubular nature. As the tubes loose thier moisture they shrink and thus it is in damp conditions it will swell. So if you're using such wood for framing a layout, the larger the timber the more shrinkage and thus the more likely you'll run into problems.
Which brings us to plywood which is a much better medium for our purposes due to the nature of it's construction. The plys oppose each other and the layers of bonding between the plys add to its strenght, It does not shrink. Sometimes especially when exposed to sun light, the top ply will shrink and cracking can be seen but the inner plys shouldn't move! The more plys there are the better quality the plywood is. 9 or 10mm 5ply should be sufficiant for all model railway applications (unless you're running gauge 1 live steam). 1x1 (3/4" x 3/4") or 1x2 (3/4" x 1 1/2") should be used for glue blocks or other small applications as all but the most expensive plywood cut down to this size can blow when drilled into.

One other advantage of plywood is there's a much less chance of wood boring insects destroying your railway.

The measurements quoted by David in post #82 from the model railroader confirm what I'd settle at. I have settled on boards of 4 feet (1200mm) lenght unless the need requires otherwise, as 4'(1200mm) is a standard material size. (I don't like wasting wood as our forests are shrinking at an alarming unrelaceable rate).

Keith (post#82) has done well but I would suggest at least gluing an angular bracket every 12-18 inches along the sides and from experience a glue block in every corner if the layout is to be assembled and dismantled.

All this advice is good coming from a competent wood machinist I hear you thinking and I am not overlooking the fact that plywood will need to ripped and cross cut to the sizes required. Seek out someone who can do this for you if you don't have the required tools or skills. Most carpenters/joiners/cabinetmakers etc. should be willing to help and could most probably cut out all your layout parts in thier tea break! Just be sure you have all your measurements correct and worked out before cutting.
Rule #1:
Measure twice, cut once!

The best tool to own would be a jigsaw as I suggest above.

Lastly I'd like to point out why I'm trying to promote open frame construction.
We go to great lengths to create accurcy on our models but the one thing which lets most layouts down is that most often than not they're depictied in a flat setting or with the terrain built up arround that flat setting. The real railways mostly ran on embankments or hillsides and through engineered countryside whereby the ground was removed from cuttings and then used to build up the embankments. I think everyone would agree that model trains look more realistic when viewed at eye level or even better from below.  Two of my favorite layouts are Black Country Blues and Tetley Mills by the late Dave Shakespeare.



 

[DCB]

I think the key thing is not to use new timber,   I have seen perfectly good 100 year old timber ripped out in building work,  Floorboards which just need planing up etc. thrown inn skips.  When sanded and if necessary planed up this second hand timber is almost indistinguishable from new but unlikely to warp any more.  Unlike new Wickes, B&Q etc timber which in my experience sags and warps horribly.Plenty of builders will let you have decent lengths of scrap wood for the price of a couple of pints.  

 

My favorite is actually 2X1 or thereabouts taken from the panelling or racking inside scrapped builders vans from my local car breaker, These are usually ten years old. The wood is dry and rot and pest free though damaged with screw holes etc but often there are usable 8 foot lengths and 4 foot lengths of  2"X2" for uprights.   Motor Caravans and anything which has transported anything organic should be avoided, though caravan framing between the inner and outer skin can be good,    

 

I have used 2X1 on its side with a 1/4" groove for a piece of MDF for a 3 foot span duck under with no problems, the ends were reinforced with more 2X1 

 

Second hand interior doors with thin ply surfaces and cardboard honeycomb internals cut down are light and reasonably strong, great for N gauge, but wont retain track pins and you have to surface mount point motors or cut holes and get inventive routing wires inside the honeycomb. They make great traversers, both carriage and deck.  Cut one to half width and slide it on the other.

[bourneagain]

I have just re-found a decent local timber yard, I thought they closed down as one of the multiples took over their old yard. Much better quality wood

It’s quite an easy statement to make, just pop down to your local Timber Merchants and they will be more than helpful to assist you in your requirements, I wish it was that easy, I believe that Timber Merchants like these are few and far between.

In my experience, most only want to deal with trade customers. If they are willing to sell to a retail customer, they are very vague with their prices, - depending on the quantity required; only finding out the price upon arrival at the payment desk. They are unwilling to let you go and select the pieces of timber that you want, ie straight and fairly knot free, you have to take what they want you to have and in the length that they want to get rid of, so that once I ended up paying for almost 2m of timber that I didn`t really want, at a price well above the local DIY shed, I didn’t go back there again.

[hayfield]

It’s quite an easy statement to make, just pop down to your local Timber Merchants and they will be more than helpful to assist you in your requirements, I wish it was that easy, I believe that Timber Merchants like these are few and far between.

In my experience, most only want to deal with trade customers. If they are willing to sell to a retail customer, they are very vague with their prices, - depending on the quantity required; only finding out the price upon arrival at the payment desk. They are unwilling to let you go and select the pieces of timber that you want, ie straight and fairly knot free, you have to take what they want you to have and in the length that they want to get rid of, so that once I ended up paying for almost 2m of timber that I didn`t really want, at a price well above the local DIY shed, I didn’t go back there again.

 

 

You are probably right, but this company was really helpfull. I might have gone there at the right time (mid afternoon) when all the orders were sent out.

 

I wanted a new door sill for my patio doors, the chap found a piece and rather than have a small off cut gave me the full length but only charged for the amount I needed. The off cut will be used to replace the back door sill, rather than repair the existing one. Not only is the wood of better quality that that on offer at my local builders merchants and DIY stores but half the price they wanted before you take the off cut into consideration

[Budgie]

It’s quite an easy statement to make, just pop down to your local Timber Merchants and they will be more than helpful to assist you in your requirements, I wish it was that easy, I believe that Timber Merchants like these are few and far between.

In my experience, most only want to deal with trade customers. If they are willing to sell to a retail customer, they are very vague with their prices, - depending on the quantity required; only finding out the price upon arrival at the payment desk. They are unwilling to let you go and select the pieces of timber that you want, ie straight and fairly knot free, you have to take what they want you to have and in the length that they want to get rid of, so that once I ended up paying for almost 2m of timber that I didn`t really want, at a price well above the local DIY shed, I didn’t go back there again.

That's not my experience with my local timber yard: Catford Timber Company. I keep offering to pay for the cuts I ask them to make in the plywood I buy from them, but they refuse to charge for them (yes, even for cutting a full sheet into 4-inch wide strips). They know I am a hobbyist and only want small quantities compared with their trade customers, but they are only too keen to have my custom and they charge me trade prices. I would recommend them to anyone.

[figworthy]

It’s quite an easy statement to make, just pop down to your local Timber Merchants and they will be more than helpful to assist you in your requirements, I wish it was that easy, I believe that Timber Merchants like these are few and far between.

In my experience, most only want to deal with trade customers. If they are willing to sell to a retail customer, they are very vague with their prices, - depending on the quantity required; only finding out the price upon arrival at the payment desk. They are unwilling to let you go and select the pieces of timber that you want, ie straight and fairly knot free, you have to take what they want you to have and in the length that they want to get rid of, so that once I ended up paying for almost 2m of timber that I didn`t really want, at a price well above the local DIY shed, I didn’t go back there again.

 

Like others who've replied, I've had a very different experience.  My local (independent) builder/timber merchant is happy to deal with the general public, and will happily cut down sheets of ply to the required dimensions.  Their timber is much better quality than the local DIY outlets (all the 2x1 is straight with very few knots).  Yes, you only get the price when you ask, but experience has shown that they are always cheaper than the sheds.

 

Adrian

[SJS]

Would welcome any photos / further info please

 

I'll try and take some when I get back off my holidays! Apologies for the delay....Mark

[emt_911]

That's not my experience with my local timber yard: Catford Timber Company. I keep offering to pay for the cuts I ask them to make in the plywood I buy from them, but they refuse to charge for them (yes, even for cutting a full sheet into 4-inch wide strips). They know I am a hobbyist and only want small quantities compared with their trade customers, but they are only too keen to have my custom and they charge me trade prices. I would recommend them to anyone.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll be going to see them this week.

[Andy Hayter]

Update on using extruded Polystyrene (PS) as a baseboard top.

 

 On page one I promised to give some feedback on my first attempts with extruded PS as a baseboard top.

 

I had previously used this material at 30mm thickness as an insulation material for a conservatory wall.  I was impressed with the ease of handling, stability and rigidity of the material.  At the same time both here and in the French model press articles have been appearing extolling the use of this material.

 

I had visited my local (not) DIY shed and grabbed another three sheets of the material only to find on getting home that I had 20mm and not 30mm thick material.  So back to the shed for the right thickness.

 

As they say, the best laid plans........

 

The 30mm and 20mm that I had bought were both rectangular blocks of extruded PS, but now, although the 20mm was a solid block, the 30mm and thicker sheets were all tongue and groove.  While this is great for laying a floor sub-base for my purposes this would mean a little extra cutting, but so be it.  Loco Revue (French modellers magazine) was recommending 50mm sheet, so I decided to go for a thicker sheet than the planned 30mm.  However 50mm did not exist in this range, so I opted for 40mm. 

 

On returning home the sheets were cut to size (55cm x 125cm - full length minus the tongue).  Ply was cut to surround the PS - 15mm thick for the ends (remains of an old wardrobe) and 9mm for the sides, which had to be purchased since none of my "too useful to throw away" ply was long enough to surround the 125cm sheet.  The sides were glued and screwed into the thick ply ends and reinforced with wood blocks in the corners designed so that the PS sheet could sit on these at the corners.  The PS sheet was glued in place and following the recommendations the joints were reinforced with 60mm screws through the ply and into the PS.  The screws do not really bite into the PS sheet so overtightening is to be avoided.

 

I agonised whether a further support for the sheet would be needed but in the event, such is the quality of my woodworking skills that the sides bowed a few millimetres in the middle.  A single wood cross piece also supporting the board allowed the sides to be pulled in when glued and screwed in place. 

 

Once all was fully set I was disappointed to find that at the ends, the boards sagged about 0.5mm - not anything that I cannot work around, but annoying nevertheless.  I initially put this down to my ham-fisted efforts, but later found that there is a very deflection in all the boards.  The previous 30mm boards were perfectly flat.

 

Some other differences I noted between the original PS sheets and these T&G boards:

 

The T&G PS gives the impression of being softer, it cuts rather differently creating a lot more coarse dust - a bit like sawing through expanded PS rather than extruded.  I checked the density of the new and old materials but to all intents and purposes the density is the same.  If there is a difference in the structure it must be in the composition of the PS or the way it is foamed during the extrusion process.

 

However despite my reservations, I seem to have a baseboard that is more than good enough to be used and three more boards are now in preparation.

[Peter Bedding]

Personally, I have found that using cheap materials for the baseboard structure is a false economy. Some years ago I adopted a "ladder" design for my baseboards, using L girder 1200mm long for the length, L girders 600mm long for the ends, and T girders for the cross pieces. All made from 100mm wide x 10mm commercial quality birch ply. The carpenters workshop just had to select 2400mm sheets of the 10mm ply, and bench saw them to 100 strips, cut to length as required and glued and pinned either as T or L section. The end result is immensely strong and completely stable for good tracklaying.

 

Here I have re-used three of my 1200mm ladders, end to end, and reused a fourth cut in half lengthways to widen the end result.

 

 

I can now drop in plain ply panels, small enough to manhandle, on which to mount the track pointwork and wiring.

 

Self edit : to correct the length of the cross pieces.

[Chimer]

Personally, I have found that using cheap materials for the baseboard structure is a false economy. Some years ago I adopted a "ladder" design for my baseboards, using L girder 1200mm long for the length, L girders 200mm long for the ends, and T girders for the cross pieces. All made from 100mm wide x 10mm commercial quality birch ply. The carpenters workshop just had to select 2400mm sheets of the 10mm ply, and bench saw them to 100 strips, cut to length as required and glued and pinned either as T or L section. The end result is immensely strong and completely stable for good tracklaying.

 

Here I have re-used three of my 1200mm ladders, end to end, and reused a fourth cut in half lengthways to widen the end result.

 

150914 - 16 Minipic.JPG

 

I can now drop in plain ply panels, small enough to manhandle, on which to mount the track pointwork and wiring.

 

I do like the look of that, but surely the ladders are wider than the 200mm you quote above "for the ends" ?

[Peter Bedding]

I do like the look of that, but surely the ladders are wider than the 200mm you quote above "for the ends" ?

 

Whoops! Yet another senior moment. They come all too often these days.

 

The overall length/width that I have adopted as standard is 1200mm (4ft) x 600mm (2ft). As we all have to learn the hard way there's nothing like mixing imperial and metric to cause confusion.

 

 

This assembly photo shows how the boards were configured for MoF Mk 1, back in the summer of 2007.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

PB

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think it may have been on another thread that I mentioned a good (cheap) supplier of insulation materials for those who like to make foam baseboards. At the time, I could not remember their contact details but I have just received a mailshot from them. www.secondsandco.co.uk.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Happened to be in a branch of Wickes yesterday. They have 1800 x 600 ply sheets (and MDF) at fairly reasonable prices which seemed good quality. What mystified me was that the 18mm thick sheets were cheaper than the thinner ones. 18mm would certainly give one a strong baseboard but rather too heavy for a portable layout. As a material for building L orT-girders, it would be great.