Layout Substructure ("Baseboard") Techniques and Materials

[Joseph_Pestell]

Mike Walton's Lostock Junction (used in the video of APT-P vs the Daleks) was rebuilt using aluminum studs (common over here for office walls and other constuction) in the 2x4 size.  He used it to replace previous wooden structures that had started to bend.

 

I use L-girder, usually of 1x3 - 1x3 size. The stability is supposed to come from having the boards glued at right angles. They are also supposed to resist bending when the end 1/5 is not supported. The flexibility of the design comes from the cross pieces' being movable in case you find that you need a point motor or a river at that point. I ruin the flexibility by mounting big slabs of Homasote on top of it instead of narrow pieces of subroadbed.

 

The proper sequence for making an L-girder is clamp, drill, screw, unscrew, glue, re-screw, wait until glue dries, remove the screws. Leaving the screws in destroys drills and saw blades later on.

I am wary of using plywood for this; I don't like screw into the side of the plies.

If I was making the L-girder from ply, I would add a gusset of softwood to put the screws into.

[BR60103]

Mike:

The wood is possibly pine. My previous layout used "whitewood" which I think was poplar.

I buy in small enough quantities that I can pick it out of the rack and check the straightness.If it's bent along the 1" side, I try to match it to a piece that is straight. It does change shape a little when stored in the basement. The worse pieces are used for joists or risers -- with the bends cut out or tolerated. Really bad bits are cut down.

20 years ago I could buy trim pieces in sizes around 1x1 but these seem to have disappeared.

 

I try to make the L-girders in pairs, clamping a box of 4 sticks together, to keep things square. Then I have to be careful which side I drill into so that I don't make a C-girder. 

[Guest]

OK, have a laugh. It has only just occurred to me that four doors we have removed from various parts of the house (and we have not been able to get rid of/give away) could now be useful. OK so they are not flat but moulded panel style like this.images (5).jpg

This isn't one of mine but they are this design.

I can add a thin ply surface. They could/would be used for my fiddle yard sections where points motors will be surface mounted. Doh!

In fact I bet if I went to the dump I could get ones like these as they were fitted to loads of houses on local estates about 15 years ago.

Thanks every one; it may not happen but I could maybe make a work bench out of one or a big shelf for STWBO to do her plant pots stuff on (not in the loft though  ?)

P.L. Onker.

 

Best workbench I ever had was a cheap moulded Wickes door on a pair of old trestles.

[BG John]

OK, have a laugh. It has only just occurred to me that four doors we have removed from various parts of the house (and we have not been able to get rid of/give away) could now be useful.

If you lived near me, they could be stored in my shed by now! I've got quite a collection acquired via Freecycle. I've also got some nice ones someone put outside their gate, whose former owner sent me to a neighbour who was about to have some doors changed, so I removed them for her too! I haven't used any for baseboards yet, as they're too big for what I'm doing at the moment, but my office, where I do much of my modelling, has walls made from fully glazed doors.

 

An idea is starting to form in my mind though, about the next baseboards I plan to construct!

[teaky]

Only the other day I was toying with the idea of using, say, 100mm slices from doors like this in a similar way to the ply:softwood sandwich approach (see The Staionmaster's post further up for a good example).  Not as end or side pieces perhaps but they might work as cross braces.  It was just an idea to avoid chucking them in a skip at the tip.

[The Stationmaster]

Tip with panel type doors - store them flat because they can warp a little bit  (we actually have one which does have a  slight warp in it).  We bought some very cheap in a D-I-Y shed closing down sale about 20 years ago ready for our house extension and fortunately the guy we hired as project manager had a warehouse where we could store them and they lay flat for about 6 months.  When we built our present house they came straight from Mr Jewson and - as mentioned - one has acquired a slight warp so storing them flat does seem to help.

 

May years ago we took one out of our kitchen when we knocked through the larder wall and I then used it as a greenhouse bench sat ion concrete blocks for the best part of 20 years - regularly got wet when I watered plants but it remained perfectly stable and by the time we moved it had been in use as a door or bench for over 30 years.  Only problem was that it had a hardboard skin so no good for model railway use.

[BG John]

Only problem was that it had a hardboard skin so no good for model railway use.

I've dismantled an old pasting table for model railway use, but the hardboard won't be used for running trains on. I suppose it's part of the superstructure, rather than the substructure.

[banburysaint]

I have a section of my layout which goes to a lower level. I would be interested in suggestions as how to have a smooth transition, and how to support the section between the upper and lower levels.

[Guest]

I have a section of my layout which goes to a lower level. I would be interested in suggestions as how to have a smooth transition, and how to support the section between the upper and lower levels.

 

In the past where I've had to run a track from a level baseboard to a lower or higher level, I've used 3mm MDF which is a perfect match for the cork trackbed I use. Ovelap the level baseboard at either end of the transition with the MDF by about 2 inches. This can be glued or countersunk and screwed to the level baseboard. The MDF will flex smoothly over the length of the fall or rise. Softwood risers can be cut with a very slight angle to support the MDF at 6 inch intervals. When happy with the transition, I often use a "one-shot" expanding foam under the trackbed for additional support. I guess there are many ways to do this, but it's worked for me in the past. Whatever you do, avoid a sharp sudden angle when going from the level baseboard.

 

Edit: If you haven't yet begun your baseboard(s) and you're planning to use an "open-frame" type construction, the trackbed risers between levels could be engineered into the frame.

 

 

[banburysaint]

Pete

 

That is very helpful especially with some pictures.

 

Thanks

[Sasquatch]

Light weight baseboards layout sections can be made by employing ply ribs. The first step is to draw things out full scale. mark on all track, clearances, buildings , gradients, buildings and point motors. Then you can work out where the ribs go. I have been using 9mm ply and 5mm MDF for the track bed, roads, building foundations and river beds etc. 

Next draw a side view and end view again full scale. on this draw each rib and a back and front. This will give  your measurements for the gradients!

All you should need is a jig saw, square, drill nails two clamps and most important, good quality wood glue. A gallon! A cross cut saw helps speed things up. Look for a second hand one and buy a new blade for it.

 

The MDF is flexible enough to bend sufficiently for changes in gradients and a little card packing under the cork will be even better.

 

IMHO all those blocks and extra bits with screws is over doing things. It's the glue that holds it. Next comes the fun bit, foam. Hot glue will hold it in place and it will add a lot of rigidity to the structure. File it, rasp it, hack it and saw it to the required shape. All my layout sections are bolted together with 1/4" coach bolts.

 

The following pictures will, I hope, show what I'm on about.

This extension to the layout has two gradients.

 

Edit: To add some pics. of the viaduct construction. All done using three full size drawings. Plan, front & back and end showing all ribs. (Sorry no pics. of the drawings).

 

Shaun. Questions welcome.

[SJS]

I'm thinking about it now too!

Yep - that's the stuff I use. Am building my second layout using it. The first survived a major move and a few years of abuse.

[Chimer]

 

I'm thinking about using this stuff for the framework of my next build:http://www.richardsonsuk.co.uk/25mm-square-tube-system/p47

 

 

In industry it is called "speed frame" and used for just about anything.............we my lathe bench is built from it, as was my Son's first "00" layout back in the 80's, good stuff............thinking about it my water butt stands on a frame of speedframe and that is now 30 years old, not rusted through yet  

 

 

Yep - that's the stuff I use. Am building my second layout using it. The first survived a major move and a few years of abuse.

 

I'm really attracted to this idea.  Can anyone who's used it give an idea how far you can span without deflection - i.e. how close together do legs need to be on a long run?  Presumably you would need more legs with the aluminium section than with steel?

 

Thanks in advance......

[Joseph_Pestell]

Light weight baseboards layout sections can be made by employing ply ribs. The first step is to draw things out full scale. mark on all track, clearances, buildings , gradients, buildings and point motors. Then you can work out where the ribs go. I have been using 9mm ply and 5mm MDF for the track bed, roads, building foundations and river beds etc. 

Next draw a side view and end view again full scale. on this draw each rib and a back and front. This will give  your measurements for the gradients!

All you should need is a jig saw, square, drill nails two clamps and most important, good quality wood glue. A gallon! A cross cut saw helps speed things up. Look for a second hand one and buy a new blade for it.

 

The MDF is flexible enough to bend sufficiently for changes in gradients and a little card packing under the cork will be even better.

 

IMHO all those blocks and extra bits with screws is over doing things. It's the glue that holds it. Next comes the fun bit, foam. Hot glue will hold it in place and it will add a lot of rigidity to the structure. File it, rasp it, hack it and saw it to the required shape. All my layout sections are bolted together with 1/4" coach bolts.

 

The following pictures will, I hope, show what I'm on about.

This extension to the layout has two gradients.

1 (2).JPG

b2.JPG

Mess.JPG

 

Edit: To add some pics. of the viaduct construction. All done using three full size drawings. Plan, front & back and end showing all ribs. (Sorry no pics. of the drawings).

viaduct 3.JPG

viaduct 4.JPG

viaduct 5.JPG

foam2.jpg

viaduct 7.JPG

 

Shaun. Questions welcome.

 

Shaun, Thanks for posting those pics. A cracking example of how to use ply for layout substructure. The downside of this type of construction is that the builder has to have a very clear plan to work to from the beginning - not that that is a bad thing in my view. However, many layout builders struggle to envisage the layout inn quite that detail to begin with and need to modify as they go along. L-girder may be a better option for them.

 

If, perhaps, I can get mods to make this a sub-forum, we could open up a topic on each type of construction.

 

PS: Shaun, Is there a thread for this layout? I would like to know more.

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm really attracted to this idea.  Can anyone who's used it give an idea how far you can span without deflection - i.e. how close together do legs need to be on a long run?  Presumably you would need more legs with the aluminium section than with steel?

 

Thanks in advance......

 

 

Nothing wrong with steel legs apart from the extra weight if you need to transport them often. But at the overall weights we are talking about, aluminium is probably as strong as we need so long as it does not get dented.

 

As to span, that will depend on a number of factors, the main one being the weight of scenery on the layout. But location of the legs is important too. If you place them properly, the boards can be cantilevered which means that the downwards weight of one part of the layout is helping another part of the layout to be kept up, Forth Bridge-style.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I'm thinking about using this stuff for the framework of my next build:http://www.richardsonsuk.co.uk/25mm-square-tube-system/p47

 

I'm thinking about it now too!

 

In industry it is called "speed frame" and used for just about anything.............we my lathe bench is built from it, as was my Son's first "00" layout back in the 80's, good stuff............thinking about it my water butt stands on a frame of speedframe and that is now 30 years old, not rusted through yet 

 

 

I'm really attracted to this idea.  Can anyone who's used it give an idea how far you can span without deflection - i.e. how close together do legs need to be on a long run?  Presumably you would need more legs with the aluminium section than with steel?

 

Homebase DIY stores briefly stocked a similar (if not the same product), a few years ago (late 00's?).

 

In our local store, there was a dedicated promotional display stand, with leaflets etc.

I was initially quite interested in using this system to build a new workbench in my shed, but it crossed my mind that it would make an excellent, rigid, but light frame for a model railway layout.

 

Sadly the product had disappeared from the local Homebase when I next looked a few months later.

Presumably it didn't sell and the manufacturer/distributor, wasn't prepared or able to continue promoting it through that store group.

 

 

Another off-the shelf (literally) option, was a heavy duty metal shelf/rack system that IKEA sold a few years ago.

It consisted of a wall mounted frame that also rested on the floor for additional weight bearing and was designed for store room or workshop use.

 

The cantilever shelf supports were very rigid and designed to take heavy weights.

It also used optional longitudinal shelf bracing to prevent sag of the shelf material. Metal shelves were also available as an option.

 

This was a much better shelving option compared to anything out there in the usual retail market, but sadly IKEA dropped that product line about 5 years ago or more.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Homebase DIY stores briefly stocked a similar (if not the same product), a few years ago (late 00's?).

 

In our local store, there was a dedicated promotional display stand, with leaflets etc.

I was initially quite interested in using this system to build a new workbench in my shed, but it crossed my mind that it would make an excellent, rigid, but light frame for a model railway layout.

 

Sadly the product had disappeared from the local Homebase when I next looked a few months later.

Presumably it didn't sell and the manufacturer/distributor, wasn't prepared or able to continue promoting it through that store group.

 

 

Another off-the shelf (literally) option, was a heavy duty metal shelf/racking system that IKEA sold a few years ago.

It consisted of a wall mounted frame that also rested on the floor for additional weight bearing and was designed for store room or workshop use.

 

The cantilever shelf supports were very rigid and designed to take heavy weights.

It also used optional longitudinal shelf bracing to prevent sag of the shelf material. Metal shelves were also available as an option.

 

This was a much better shelving option compared to anything out there in the usual retail market, but sadly IKEA dropped that product line about 5 years ago or more.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

With librairies closing down, there should be plenty of those very solid metal shelving systems about at low cost. Just a question of knowing who at your local authority is responsible for selling them off (or which skip they are being put in).

[Sasquatch]

PS: Shaun, Is there a thread for this layout? I would like to know more.

Yes. I've documented two layouts on here. See the links below!

[The Stationmaster]

Shaun, Thanks for posting those pics. A cracking example of how to use ply for layout substructure. The downside of this type of construction is that the builder has to have a very clear plan to work to from the beginning - not that that is a bad thing in my view. However, many layout builders struggle to envisage the layout inn quite that detail to begin with and need to modify as they go along. L-girder may be a better option for them.

 

If, perhaps, I can get mods to make this a sub-forum, we could open up a topic on each type of construction.

 

PS: Shaun, Is there a thread for this layout? I would like to know more.

I can see the point of using ply where it is to support roadbed and possibly on longer sections but, cost questions apart, formers for contours and variations in ground level, cutting & embankment sides etc can very quickly be made using foamboard which is plenty strong enough and robust enough for most scenery with a bit of bracing unless you are going to use really heavy finishing material.

 

Anda  good idea about a sub-forum.

[Sasquatch]

 

There are two reasons I adopted open frame construction on Goathland, firstly the station and it's setting with its 3 gradients, two river levels, roads and hill sides would have been hard do attempt any other way. Secondly was the weight consideration. Two of the sections measure 72"x32" and I can pick them up with two fingers! It was easier assembling it with two people at the exhibition though.

 

From the outset I thought I'd bitten off more than I could chew but it was much easier than you'd expect. Having learnt a few things I'll be adopting this construction throughout in future as I'm more than happy with the results.

 

When the kitchen has been rebuilt, my next project will be a model of the Queensbury triangle.

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

When the kitchen has been rebuilt, my next project will be a model of the Queensbury triangle.

 

That will be spectacular and I am sure many of us are looking forward to seeing it.

[SJS]

I'm really attracted to this idea.  Can anyone who's used it give an idea how far you can span without deflection - i.e. how close together do legs need to be on a long run?  Presumably you would need more legs with the aluminium section than with steel?

 

Thanks in advance......

There is no fixed answer to this question. I can tell you what I do and that seems to work. I build a "box" with supports every 3 feet or so. If its an area which doesn't have to support anything e.g., a top bar that only supports the top of a backscene you can go further. As its a box it isn't fully rigid due to the lack of diagonals so I use the trackbed as part of the frame. It takes a bit of thinking to minimize the structure.

 

I then sit the model on a set of separate shelf/leg structures built from the aluminium. This is again a box with legs and the shelf makes it rigid. I do attach this structure to the wall with clips as its so light it's easy to move accidentally.

 

This means I have a support for the railway with a shelf for storage that can be moved easily if required. The railway sits on top and can also be lifted off.

 

To be honest if I had the patience and skill to build a good wooden frame I would. My experience is that I get much better results this wayand in much less time.

 

Mark

[Chimer]

Nothing wrong with steel legs apart from the extra weight if you need to transport them often. But at the overall weights we are talking about, aluminium is probably as strong as we need so long as it does not get dented.

 

As to span, that will depend on a number of factors, the main one being the weight of scenery on the layout. But location of the legs is important too. If you place them properly, the boards can be cantilevered which means that the downwards weight of one part of the layout is helping another part of the layout to be kept up, Forth Bridge-style.

 

The bit about cantilevering lost me for a bit, but I think perhaps I've got it now ..... are you saying that with a structure like this, 5' x 4'6" overall,

 

 

the legs would be better placed at positions B, the corners of the operating well, than at A, the outside corners of the whole thing?  Or up at the top where the board is wider (18"), perhaps even better at C?

 

My idea is to build a new subframe and legs from the square tubing, with the existing conventional baseboards (fibreboard with 2 x 1 softwood framing) sitting on top.  Currently the boards sit uneasily on a multi-legged wooden arrangement which is nearly impossible to level, so the idea of 4 legs with adjustable feet really appeals - if 4 would be enough?  The weight will be the weight of the boards - the scenery is very light, I'm not into plaster etc for that.  Also the thing won't be going anywhere outside the house, so the extra weight of steel over aluminium is not a problem if it means fewer legs.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Is everybody just building table top style, on legs. 

How about building vertically ?

[Black Sheep]

I've just remembered being asked to leave Wicks in Barnsley as I had 20 lengths of wood laid in the aisle as I compared them for straightness

 

Was about to buy the only 4 straight ones when asked to leave, attempts to explain were met with hostility so I did as asked.