Why should I not choose 00-SF

[Ramblin Rich]

Martyn, I *think* Mr Dave was being slightly sarcastic about a circle of track (this seems to be the lighthearted alternative to the various 00-SF threads)  but good to have your input anyway!

[martin_wynne]

Martin, I *think* Mr Dave was being slightly sarcastic about a circle of track (this seems to be the lighthearted alternative to the various 00-SF threads)  but good to have your input anyway!

 

Hi Rich,

 

Yes I know. I was tempted to suggest that Dave should not use 00-SF if he is Network Rail.

 

But there are over 25,000 members on RMweb. Many will not have any knowledge of 00-SF.

 

It's important not to give the impression that 00-SF is the next big thing, and a perfect replacement for every 00 layout on the planet. It is for finescale handbuilt track only.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Armchair Modeller]

I understand the mischievous nature of the OP, but choice is a personal thing. It shouldn't matter what other people think is best for them.

 

If you have the skills and the patience to build track, but don't want to adjust the wheelsets or rewheel your stock, then OO-SF has a lot going for it. The only way to find out if it is right for you is to try it out for yourself.

 

I assume you will also need to get used to using Templot, as I guess all other templates will be inaccurate for OO-SF.

 

The best way to answer the sceptics is if lots of people prove it works.

[martin_wynne]

I assume you will also need to get used to using Templot, as I guess all other templates will be inaccurate for 00-SF.

 

Plain turnouts can be built to 00-SF on templates intended for 16.5mm gauge without any significant problems.

 

But for diamond-crossings and slips it is essential that the template has been printed for 00-SF (16.2mm gauge), otherwise it will be impossible to align the rails correctly.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I understand the mischievous nature of the OP, but choice is a personal thing. It shouldn't matter what other people think is best for them.

 

If you have the skills and the patience to build track, but don't want to adjust the wheelsets or rewheel your stock, then OO-SF has a lot going for it. The only way to find out if it is right for you is to try it out for yourself.

 

I assume you will also need to get used to using Templot, as I guess all other templates will be inaccurate for OO-SF.

 

The best way to answer the sceptics is if lots of people prove it works.

 

 

I think that has been done, several folk use 00-sf standards on turnouts and crossings. Some may not even remember/know the gauge title only that its a finescale piece of track. In the end does it matter if it does what you require, simply a turnout that looks better than those out of a box and will accept rolling stock without alteration.

 

Rather than these pages what may give 00-sf a boost could be the C&L ready built (from one of their kits) turnout as it is just as easy building them to 00-sf standards as 00 intermediate, EM or P4. As each one will be hand built using gauges and the common crossings are the same as they supply for EM & 00BF. 

[Ian_H]

I really don't understand why you folks want to waste your time, trying to build track when it's already available of the shelf to the superior standard for fine scale modelling. See here http://www.vintagemodeltrains.biz/contents/en-uk/d74_super4track.html

 

 

I’ve no idea why Tri-ang didn’t register the oo-sf as a trade mark “OO-Super4”. Certainly missed that Minic ship boat!

 

Just messing about -

[dasatcopthorne]

I really don't understand why you folks want to waste your time, trying to build track when it's already available of the shelf to the superior standard for fine scale modelling. See here http://www.vintagemodeltrains.biz/contents/en-uk/d74_super4track.html

 

 

I’ve no idea why Tri-ang didn’t register the oo-sf as a trade mark “OO-Super4”. Certainly missed that Minic ship boat!

 

Just messing about -

Gentlemen.

 

There is a lot of 'silliness' creeping into this thread.

 

I must insist that some sense of decorum is maintained and you endeavour to keep to answering the question posed in the original post.

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

I am thinking of starting an official group or association for this gauge.

 

Here are my suggested acronyms

 

Double O sPecial fINE aSSociation

 

Double 0 spEcial Fine gaugE assoCiATION

 

Please let me know which one you prefer.

 

Dave

 

[Siberian Snooper]

The reason you should not use 00-sf is to appease DOGA.

[PhilH]

I'm somewhat confused as to what yoga for dogs has to with model railways.

[dasatcopthorne]

The reason you should not use 00-sf is to appease DOGA.

Now you're talking.

 

Dave.

[martin_wynne]

Members of DOGA are your fellow modellers.

 

This topic is not doing 00-SF any favours.

 

Martin.

[Guest bri.s]

It was a joke I don't even model In 00 but the stupid argument about which is best is farcical for grown humans

It's a hobby of toy trains

 

Brian

[RichardS]

Referring back to Martin's post at 21.41 yesterday where he stated that it is a happy coincidence that most current rtr wheels will go through OO-SF

What happens if the manufacturers change their profiles? We know at times they sometimes change things on a whim 'for marketing reasons' etc?

Obviously re-wheeling might become necessary thus negating any real benefit for many. And this makes the argument for EM and P4 much stronger.

OO really is a pain isn't it.

 

Finally mnemonic OOFS - OO Finescale and a load of Oofs etc etc.

[martin_wynne]

What happens if the manufacturers change their profiles? We know at times they sometimes change things on a whim 'for marketing reasons' etc?

 

It would be a silly manufacturer who made their wheels incompatible with thousands of existing layouts.

 

If they don't do that, the wheels will be fine for 00-SF and 00-BF and DOGA-Intermediate.

 

Martin.

[AndyID]

Martin makes a good point (actually I think he's made a lot of points over the years  

 

I understand some of the frustration that provoked this thread, but there is nothing wrong with DOGA or the modellers who want to use it.

 

Let's not get carried away.

[dasatcopthorne]

Martin makes a good point (actually I think he's made a lot of points over the years

 

I understand some of the frustration that provoked this thread, but there is nothing wrong with DOGA or the modellers who want to use it.

 

Let's not get carried away.

 

AndyID.

 

You are absolutely right in all the above post.

 

The VERY frustrating problem is that we get posters who only want to poo poo 00sf even when they don't model in it and haven't tried it.

 

I am willing to bet that they don't post about EM in the same manner!

 

Still. We are only on post #42. Sorry, #43 now!

 

Dave

[Junctionmad]

It was a joke I don't even model In 00 but the stupid ###### argument about which is best is farcical for grown humans

It's a ###### hobby of toy trains

Brian

Excuse me, I'm a railway modeller. I build miniature replicas of the prototype. There are no toy trains to be seen anywhere.

[RichardS]

It would be a silly manufacturer who made their wheels incompatible with thousands of existing layouts.

 

If they don't do that, the wheels will be fine for 00-SF and 00-BF and DOGA-Intermediate.

 

Martin.

Agreed it would be foolish. But it seems that wheels are not presently all to the same standards ref the other thread similar to this although by and large sufficiently alike.

But if a company could see a way to corner or increase market share then they have to in order to serve shareholders.

The present wheels are quite different to those of 30 years ago whether modern wheels are entirely backwards compatible I don't know but if a person relies upon rtr (as I do at the moment) consideration of future proofing layout should not be ignored even if consideration results in still opting SF.

 

As I observed before OO is a real pain.

[Richard Lee]

Martin makes a good point (actually I think he's made a lot of points over the years

 

I understand some of the frustration that provoked this thread, but there is nothing wrong with DOGA or the modellers who want to use it.

 

Let's not get carried away.

I don't know how many members DOGA has, but I strongly suspect that only a minority of them have been being obnoxious.  It seems a good idea in principle to have a society that attempts to represent 00 modellers.

 

That said, I must admit that my opinion of DOGA has suffered recently.

[hayfield]

Agreed it would be foolish. But it seems that wheels are not presently all to the same standards ref the other thread similar to this although by and large sufficiently alike.

But if a company could see a way to corner or increase market share then they have to in order to serve shareholders.

The present wheels are quite different to those of 30 years ago whether modern wheels are entirely backwards compatible I don't know but if a person relies upon rtr (as I do at the moment) consideration of future proofing layout should not be ignored even if consideration results in still opting SF.

 

As I observed before OO is a real pain.

Whilst I agree with Martins comment, in the past there have been great steps by the manufacturers in stepping up their game in providing ever better models. With the main ready to run track system calling its self 00 universal, I guess providing the wheels work on this system, then all is OK. How this may impact on standards like DOAG fine/intermediate or 00-sf I guess does not come into it

 

With most models being made abroad and in factories that produce to similar gauges but not scale there may well be a bit of standards creep owing to cost savings/designers not knowing the subject etc. As for the advances of 3D printing and cottage industries popping up, who knows

 

As for future proofing, just look at ideas like Zero 1. I guess some aspects of DCC will be made obsolete in the future, certainly models made 40+ years ago may not work on today's finer scale 00 universal system let alone those I previously mentioned. Perhaps sticking to 00-sf or one of the DOAG standards might be the way to future proof using known wheelsets 

[RichardS]

Whilst I agree with Martins comment, in the past there have been great steps by the manufacturers in stepping up their game in providing ever better models. With the main ready to run track system calling its self 00 universal, I guess providing the wheels work on this system, then all is OK. How this may impact on standards like DOAG fine/intermediate or 00-sf I guess does not come into it

 

With most models being made abroad and in factories that produce to similar gauges but not scale there may well be a bit of standards creep owing to cost savings/designers not knowing the subject etc. As for the advances of 3D printing and cottage industries popping up, who knows

 

As for future proofing, just look at ideas like Zero 1. I guess some aspects of DCC will be made obsolete in the future, certainly models made 40+ years ago may not work on today's finer scale 00 universal system let alone those I previously mentioned. Perhaps sticking to 00-sf or one of the DOAG standards might be the way to future proof using known wheelsets

 

Which comes back to my earlier observation that if rewheeling rtr is necessary why would you continue with OO when you will have also handbuilt the track? To me that doesn't make any sense.

OO-SF makes great sense if not re-wheeling.

The same applies to my tongue in check suggestion a few.months Go of coarse scale P4 at 18.5mm (strangely OO +2) its pointless if rewheeling is required. You.might as well go for EM or P4 to start with.

Apologies for the typos in this but on my phone I cannot seem to edit without using backspace.

I still palm to use SF on my layout. I think.

[dasatcopthorne]

May I respectfully but gently remind everyone that this thread is about why I should not use 00sf.

 

Please don't use it to knock other associations and groups. Or individuals, for that matter. You are very welcome (and free) to start your own thread to do that, using an appropriate title.

 

Quickly look back at the posts you have made within this subject. If you have strayed off the subject, take One De-merit for each post.

 

Now back to the subject in hand please. And only the subject.

 

Dave. :)

[mightbe]

00-SF will never be able to compete with the proportional accuracy of EM/P4 and certainly never the fineness and sheer veracity of S4. If seeking proportional or dimensional accuracy between wheels/track and bodies, then 00-SF isn't going to give you what you need. Not only will the coarse RTR flanges work perfectly well on it (which means low incentive to replace them), you're still stuck with the wheels being 2 mm closer together than they should be. 00-SF is generally a one-way street--you can go down it very easily from the other 00s, but once down it with several kit-built locos rolling around it would be difficult to change course and switch to P4. EM gauge would be a closer step, but if you're really after something finescale going from Peco to 00-SF (or DOGA-Fine) to EM to P4 is not the way to do it. That's three different types of wheels covered. Three different wheels (possibly regauged) for the same pieces of equipment.

 

I suppose the chief difficulty is the large investment it would take to keep moving up the ladder rung by rung. 

 

Personally, at least one of those stages is a wasted step if you aim to keep shooting higher. I'm tempted to say that EM is the completely wasted step--very little RTR compatibility. But likewise jumping from 00 to P4 would be possible, especially with the pre-made track components and drop-in wheelsets. I think 00-SF's chief utility is being backwards-compatible with modern RTR 00 and looking rather better. If all your stock is being rewheeled anyway (either from kits, etc) there really isn't much point in sticking around in 16.5 mm land.

 

Bear in mind, I do actually like 00-SF, but only for the RTR-friendliness.

 

Quentin

[dasatcopthorne]

00-SF will never be able to compete with the proportional accuracy of EM/P4 and certainly never the fineness and sheer veracity of S4. If seeking proportional or dimensional accuracy between wheels/track and bodies, then 00-SF isn't going to give you what you need. Not only will the coarse RTR flanges work perfectly well on it (which means low incentive to replace them), you're still stuck with the wheels being 2 mm closer together than they should be. 00-SF is generally a one-way street--you can go down it very easily from the other 00s, but once down it with several kit-built locos rolling around it would be difficult to change course and switch to P4. EM gauge would be a closer step, but if you're really after something finescale going from Peco to 00-SF (or DOGA-Fine) to EM to P4 is not the way to do it. That's three different types of wheels covered. Three different wheels (possibly regauged) for the same pieces of equipment.

 

I suppose the chief difficulty is the large investment it would take to keep moving up the ladder rung by rung. 

 

Personally, at least one of those stages is a wasted step if you aim to keep shooting higher. I'm tempted to say that EM is the completely wasted step--very little RTR compatibility. But likewise jumping from 00 to P4 would be possible, especially with the pre-made track components and drop-in wheelsets. I think 00-SF's chief utility is being backwards-compatible with modern RTR 00 and looking rather better. If all your stock is being rewheeled anyway (either from kits, etc) there really isn't much point in sticking around in 16.5 mm land.

 

Bear in mind, I do actually like 00-SF, but only for the RTR-friendliness.

 

Quentin

Thanks, Quentin.

 

But, reading post #1, where is your reason for me NOT to use 00sf.

 

By the way, surely whatever, gauge / scale someone chooses, it's a one way street

 

Dave