Have I bought my last Bachmann loco?

[Brian Kirby]

Re Mike Parkin/new Bachmann autocoaches:

 

And the rest, £68.95 each, but £10 off with loyalty scheme, equals £196.85. But it's money well spent, how long will it take me to build and paint just one to this standard? The excellent Comet kit is at least around £40-£45, plus wheels, before you've even started, so it's all nonsense. Now they've built these for me, i can spend time getting on with something else. I've paid full price in Central London to help keep my local shops going, and help cover their high rents and business rates. Bachmann don't just make the prices up, if that's what it costs to produce a model, then put your hand in your pocket and cough up. If money's tight at the moment, don't buy them, or make savings elsewhere and save up, these coaches are worth every penny. You all kept on and on at the manufacturers, for more and more detail, and more and more separate parts, it's time some people got real and stopped moaning about prices.

    Now the autocoaches have appeared, the same old crowd are checking out all the remaining model shops nationwide, to see who's got 'em and who's doing them at the very very cheapest price (plus postage of course).     BK 

[micklner]

Just looking at the suggested mark up on these items, around 80% http://web.archive.org/web/20130319072314/http://www.cravenmodels.com/SIGNALBOXLEVERS.htm

Not a bad profit margin.

100% mark up is a normal profit margin 

[RJS1977]

 

Any talk of what things cost years ago is irrelevant when you look at the improvement in quality take the Locomotion C1 for example.

 

 

It the increase in price makes the difference between being able to afford/justify buying a model or not, then the increase in quality is irrelevant.

 

At the end of the day, our model;s are still just toys. And I might add I still get as much pleasure watching my father's 1956 Triang Princess pottering around as my £100+ Bachmann City!

[Mark Saunders]

50% of my models are second hand and some bargains can be had especially if you are prepared to do some work. Recently I acquired a Bachmann 08 and got change from £40 on ebay, likewise at a show I acquired 2 un boxed MK1 BSK's for £5 each which I have converted to a BSO and resprayed.

 

It is the same as the Second Hand Car market someone has had to buy a new one before you can buy your second hand bargain and take a loss when selling on!

 

Mark Saunders

[Stanley Melrose]

Just looking at the suggested mark up on these items, around 80% http://web.archive.org/web/20130319072314/http://www.cravenmodels.com/SIGNALBOXLEVERS.htm

Not a bad profit margin.

 

I think that margin is on the low side.  Most wholesalers assume their retailers will expect 100% over the wholesale price to cover their costs.  The margin probably explains why heavy discounting kicks in when, as has already been explained, stock needs to be shifted to maintain cashflow and/or make space for new product which the wholesaler will be delivering - and demanding payment for it.

 

Incidentally, I've just taken a pile of garden debris to the local tip and noticed a vast amount of 00 track in the metals bin.  Another convert to P4 - or just another ex-modeller having a clear-out?

 

Stan

[Clive Mortimore]

I recently decided that I wanted to add another loco to my model railway (modern image deisel) and had a browse on eBay to see what was available on the second-hand market. Dismayed at the prices that a lot of sellers seemed to be wanting for their 'used' locos I decided to have a look at what new models were selling for on the internet. None of the Bachmann locos I was interested in came in under £100!!

I'm not what most people would describe as poor (a reasonably well-paid job), but I'm not rich either. I find that I just can't justify paying more than £100 for a loco that is essentially the same as the one I bought 5 years ago for between £60 and £70. My wages are roughly the same as they were 5 years ago, so a more than 50% hike in the price of something that I want to buy unfortunately puts it very much into the 'hard to justify' category.

Eventually seeing the ridiculous prices that new locos were on sale for I reluctantly parted with £85 for one off eBay. I fear that I may have reached the point where I will simply have to be content to enjoy what I already have and cease buying new model railway stuff. I also fear that if I'm not alone in my dismay, that the day may not be far off that the only model railway stuff you can find will be on eBay.

There are other hobbies if the cost of model railways appears too much.

 

It is a very cheap hobby in the long run I have books and models that when purchased cost what seemed a fortune but 25 years later a £25 locomotive has worked out a £1 a year of fun.

[tersono]

I was in Gaugemaster's shop today. A great dealer and always very helpful, although not one to discount, it has to be said. While I was chatting to one of the staff about DCC controllers a woman came in wanting to buy a station building for her son as a Christmas present. She picked up a Bachmann model that was, unfortunately unpriced. The guy behind the counter looked it up for her and said "ouch - you're not going to be wanting this!" It was just under £60!!!

 

Having recently started moving into OO (I previously stuck to N gauge), I've bought quite a few locos lately - but there's plenty of discounts around and I really don't have a problem with the prices. I thought £80 for my recently acquired Bachmann E4 was more than acceptable, but sixty quid for a modestly-sized station building... eeek! 

 

Needless to say that the woman decided she wouldn't be buying that building for Christmas...

[rue_d_etropal]

I just got hold of a new Hornby EMU, and noticed it said 'Trains for the collector' on the box. That is a bit worrying, but probably follows the trend for more people just buying new models to sit on shelves or sit in cabinets. Ok for the manufacturers, but not good for the hobby. Maybe they should do alternate versions without motors for the collectors.

As for the price going up when a model is released, I thought I had heard there was an agreement not to discount for a short period when models were released. It can be chancy, but often best to wait to see if price drops. If enough people are brave enough, even the prices of popular models will fall. Basically nothing more than supply and demand.

If someone suggested putting out basic versions of models which could then be detailed, and reduced price a lot, as was the original intention of the Hornby Railroad and the Bachmann Junior ranges, then it might be possible to satisfy both extremes of the buyers. Trouble is the development cost of new models is so high, it has to be subsidised by hiking up the price of older simpler models.

Whilst there is a (small) crowd of (loud) railway enthusiasts(many not actually modellers), then we are all going to have to pay more for models.

[Revolution Ben]

She picked up a Bachmann model that was, unfortunately unpriced. The guy behind the counter looked it up for her and said "ouch - you're not going to be wanting this!" It was just under £60!!!

 

Needless to say that the woman decided she wouldn't be buying that building for Christmas...

Hi there,

 

I've never been to that shop, and I am no salesman, but that sounds like a terrible attitude. I mean, how does the shop assistantt know what a potential customer can and cannot afford?

 

Surely the retailer should have explained the price, but also drawn her attention to all the work that went into it, the quality of the painting, the details that would provide pleasure on Christmas Day etc etc. and then let her decide whether the product was worth the money.

 

I often hear or read that the sector struggling the most in all of this are the model railway retailers, with shops closing more often than they open. If that attitude is prevalent then I am not surprised!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[micklner]

Hi there,

 

I've never been to that shop, and I am no salesman, but that sounds like a terrible attitude. I mean, how does the shop assistantt know what a potential customer can and cannot afford?

 

Surely the retailer should have explained the price, but also drawn her attention to all the work that went into it, the quality of the painting, the details that would provide pleasure on Christmas Day etc etc. and then let her decide whether the product was worth the money.

 

I often hear or read that the sector struggling the most in all of this are the model railway retailers, with shops closing more often than they open. If that attitude is prevalent then I am not surprised!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Or he made a instant judgement as to what the lady could realistically afford and/or would be willing to pay. Also the "child " may have been a five year old and she simply wanted a simple toy , not a superdetail item.

[autocoach]

Unfortunately Bachmann has nothing in their pipeline that I want to fit my much narrowed ex-LSWR focus.  If there were products forthcoming that I fancied, I would probably pop for them. 

[t-b-g]

Once more we go done the "I want top quality models at rock bottom prices" route.

 

If the main manufacturers can produce a batch of models and can sell them at over £100, can you tell me why exactly they should put them out at £70 or £80.

 

Put yourselves in Bachmann's shoes. They are a business and out to make profits. If they don't make profits, they will stop making model railways stuff and go bust or make other stuff instead.

 

If you think that they are just rip off merchants, boycott them and set up your own manufacturing company. Produce models that enough people would be willing to pay £100 for and then sell them at £70 to show what a decent human being you are.

[Legend]

Re Mike Parkin/new Bachmann autocoaches:

 

And the rest, £68.95 each, but £10 off with loyalty scheme, equals £196.85. But it's money well spent, how long will it take me to build and paint just one to this standard? The excellent Comet kit is at least around £40-£45, plus wheels, before you've even started, so it's all nonsense. Now they've built these for me, i can spend time getting on with something else. I've paid full price in Central London to help keep my local shops going, and help cover their high rents and business rates. Bachmann don't just make the prices up, if that's what it costs to produce a model, then put your hand in your pocket and cough up. If money's tight at the moment, don't buy them, or make savings elsewhere and save up, these coaches are worth every penny. You all kept on and on at the manufacturers, for more and more detail, and more and more separate parts, it's time some people got real and stopped moaning about prices.

Now the autocoaches have appeared, the same old crowd are checking out all the remaining model shops nationwide, to see who's got 'em and who's doing them at the very very cheapest price (plus postage of course). BK

 

Bachmann first put their toe in the water with the inspection saloon to see what price that could command. As it sold they followed this up with the Autocoach. But I seriously doubt the selling price is in direct proportion to the costs of production. I think Bachmann just sense there is a part of the market that will pay ever increasing amounts for their goods and indeed they had sold too cheap in the past. So if you are willing to pay then be prepared for even larger prices in future. If they don't sell at that price , the price will come down. It's up to us to vote with our feet. For me Bachmann are now largely an irrelevance.

 

But I am astounded that there are people who will buy all three. How busy a branchline have they got? Similarly I read people on here who seem to buy every new release of loco. So what I'm learning is there seriously is a market at the top end. The question is how big it is and is it disadvantaging the rest of us who are looking for something more reasonable . Clearly there are premium and railroad markets and I think they are becoming ever more divergent.

[Revolution Ben]

Or he made a instant judgement as to what the lady could realistically afford and/or would be willing to pay. Also the "child " may have been a five year old and she simply wanted a simple toy , not a superdetail item.

Hi Mick,

 

Absolutely,

 

My point though is that his approach was almost guaranteed to lose a sale, whereas a different attitude *might* have closed a sale.

 

And experience tells me never to underestimate the spending power of a grandmother!!!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[RJS1977]

Once more we go done the "I want top quality models at rock bottom prices" route.

 

If the main manufacturers can produce a batch of models and can sell them at over £100, can you tell me why exactly they should put them out at £70 or £80.

 

 

 

Because they are pricing too many people out of the hobby, particularly the next generation of modellers.

 

Whilst pricing a £70 model at £100 may be the way to a quick buck, ultimately it may turn out to be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

[durham light infantry]

Just looking at the suggested mark up on these items, around 80% http://web.archive.org/web/20130319072314/http://www.cravenmodels.com/SIGNALBOXLEVERS.htm

Not a bad profit margin.

The trade price excludes vat.

 

Mike

[RJS1977]

I think that margin is on the low side.  Most wholesalers assume their retailers will expect 100% over the wholesale price to cover their costs.  The margin probably explains why heavy discounting kicks in when, as has already been explained, stock needs to be shifted to maintain cashflow and/or make space for new product which the wholesaler will be delivering - and demanding payment for it.

 

Incidentally, I've just taken a pile of garden debris to the local tip and noticed a vast amount of 00 track in the metals bin.  Another convert to P4 - or just another ex-modeller having a clear-out?

 

Stan

 

Or rusted-up steel track being replaced? (I threw out a load of steel track the other week as part of a layout rebuild I'm getting my Boys' Brigade company to help out with).

[Brian Kirby]

 For me Bachmann are now largely an irrelevance.

 

But I am astounded that there are people who will buy all three. How busy a branchline have they got? 

Blimey, i'd better watch out, the Layout Police are after me! If i was modelling a Plymouth to Saltash auto c.1957, i'd need four autocoaches per train (two each end and a Bachy 64xx in the middle). Thank god for Bachmann, all i want now is a Scenecraft Royal Albert Bridge!  :-))    BK

[Rob F]

I suspect that when the manufacturers increased their prices they were reasonably happy to sell lower volumes at a higher margin and if that works, then good luck to them.

 

However, if there a significant number of people like me then it may not work for them. Success of the strategy seems to be predicated on the fact that people have a budget for their hobby that they are prepared to spend, no matter what. If it previously bought four locos a year and now only buys two then so be it.

 

It has not worked out that way for me. I have an amount I am prepared to pay for any particular item. I suppose it is what I consider to be 'value for money'. If it fails that test I don't buy it. The net effect, therefore, is that my modelling spend has effectively dropped to zero. Not because I can no longer afford it but more because I feel I can't justify it.

 

I still enjoy the hobby, maybe more than I did before. I have spent more time modifying and improving older items. There is possibly more pleasure to be gained from putting a bit of my own effort into an old Lima diesel than there is from opening a new blue or red box. The quality is not the same but it is still a joy.

 

I just hope for the manufacturer's sake that people like me are an exception rather than the rule.

 

Rob

[steveb860]

Hi there,

 

I've never been to that shop, and I am no salesman, but that sounds like a terrible attitude. I mean, how does the shop assistantt know what a potential customer can and cannot afford?

 

 

Ben A.

But on the other hand, how do you know the salesperson does not know the lady concerned.  I work behind the counter ( not  at Gaugemaster ) and I see some customers 4 or 5 times a week , and get to know them, what they like and what sort of price they are prepared to pay. I might have similar conversations, It's called banter.

[Derekstuart]

If it hasn't already been mentioned- don't forget that the government is there with its begging bowl for 20% vat.

 

What you think is costing £120 is only costing £100 and your £20 is going to the exchequer.

 

Now then let us think about council tax (even a box shifting warehouse will pay that)- a small shop alone will cost £1,000 pcm. Assuming they are open on average 25 days per month, that's £40 per day. A small shop- according to my local- will sell either 4 locos or the equivalent in other items, so a sale of £480 (round it to £500). Assuming that the wholesaler was to charge only half that price (I am sceptical of this 100% mark up) then the retailer has £250, less £40 so £210.

 

Rent? £1,000 pcm for a small shop, so on that basis another £40 off. £170. Insurance, heating, lighting and that's another £20 per day gone. Now at £150. Bank charges, cash collection or card processing charges- add 2% to the total retail price, so another £10 per day, now down to £140.

 

Assuming you pay yourself at least a MINIMUM wage of £7.00 p/h (with employer NIC on top that is another near £1) so £8 p/h over 8 hours is £64. You need to allow 11% for holiday cover, so now £70 give or take.

 

So at the end of that, you're making £70 per day profit- and that is ASSUMING that a) you get the mark up claimed here (I am sceptical) and b.) you sell the amount stated. £70 / 4 locos isn't a great margin to work with when competing with box shifters who maybe get a better deal from wholesalers.

 

Obviously bigger stores have bigger overheads and likely sell more as a consequence. But suggestions that retailers are engaged in gross profiteering is perhaps unhelpful. I know someone will come up with different figures- and they'd be right as every shop will be different. I know my own industry has a large cash turnover, but terrible profit margins (10% is an incredible achievement, 5% normal and many at 3%) and yet people think we are all swimming in cash.

[lofty1966]

100% mark up is a normal profit margin 

And where did you get this info ?

[Dunsignalling]

Unfortunately Bachmann has nothing in their pipeline that I want to fit my much narrowed ex-LSWR focus.  If there were products forthcoming that I fancied, I would probably pop for them. 

Just as well, given the way others are siphoning money out of my pockets. Starting with a pair of Hornby 700s and continuing with another Maunsell TO, two S15s and a brace of Kernow/DJM O2s plus a solo Hornby Pullman car (Loraine) my year seems likely to conclude with a trio of Radials (two Oxford, one Hornby).

 

It seems that Hornby's 'Bude' will slip well into next year. Their 'Okehampton' has begun to look apocryphal so I ordered a Dapol 7mm Terrier (the KESR one) instead; an act that may well be a step onto a very slippery slope! This latter surrender to temptation apart, rising prices and (more pressing) space limitations have combined to make me much more disciplined about what I buy.

 

Bachmann's share of my spend this year comprises just one loco (a 64xx), an auto-coach to go with it, two PLVs and three wagons; very slim pickings by comparison but it has absolutely nothing to do with price beyond my cutting out impulse buys of items I'll frankly only run for a week or two.

 

Since returning to the hobby in the mid-1990s, I gradually (and sadly) came to the conclusion that relatively few Bachmann products suit my BR(S) Western Section interests and even fewer contain motors. I'm afraid I now regard this as normal - most blue boxes in my possession brought coaches and wagons; locomotives come, primarily, from other sources.

 

If I consider only ex-SR prototypes my Bachmann locos are outnumbered about thirty-to-one by Hornby and "others". By including everything else (Diesels, Ivatt tanks, BR Standards and my side interests in adjacent bits of ex-GW and S&D territory), the ratio improves to around eight-to-one. Still not giving Hornby anything like a run for my money.

 

Bachmann will be welcome to more of my disposable income; they just need to make some models that I want.

 

John

[Legend]

If it hasn't already been mentioned- don't forget that the government is there with its begging bowl for 20% vat.

 

What you think is costing £120 is only costing £100 and your £20 is going to the exchequer.

 

Now then let us think about council tax (even a box shifting warehouse will pay that)- a small shop alone will cost £1,000 pcm. Assuming they are open on average 25 days per month, that's £40 per day. A small shop- according to my local- will sell either 4 locos or the equivalent in other items, so a sale of £480 (round it to £500). Assuming that the wholesaler was to charge only half that price (I am sceptical of this 100% mark up) then the retailer has £250, less £40 so £210.

 

Rent? £1,000 pcm for a small shop, so on that basis another £40 off. £170. Insurance, heating, lighting and that's another £20 per day gone. Now at £150. Bank charges, cash collection or card processing charges- add 2% to the total retail price, so another £10 per day, now down to £140.

 

Assuming you pay yourself at least a MINIMUM wage of £7.00 p/h (with employer NIC on top that is another near £1) so £8 p/h over 8 hours is £64. You need to allow 11% for holiday cover, so now £70 give or take.

 

So at the end of that, you're making £70 per day profit- and that is ASSUMING that a) you get the mark up claimed here (I am sceptical) and b.) you sell the amount stated. £70 / 4 locos isn't a great margin to work with when competing with box shifters who maybe get a better deal from wholesalers.

 

Obviously bigger stores have bigger overheads and likely sell more as a consequence. But suggestions that retailers are engaged in gross profiteering is perhaps unhelpful. I know someone will come up with different figures- and they'd be right as every shop will be different. I know my own industry has a large cash turnover, but terrible profit margins (10% is an incredible achievement, 5% normal and many at 3%) and yet people think we are all swimming in cash.

I'm certainly not accusing retailers. I genuinely don't know how they make ends meet.

[t-b-g]

Because they are pricing too many people out of the hobby, particularly the next generation of modellers.

 

Whilst pricing a £70 model at £100 may be the way to a quick buck, ultimately it may turn out to be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

 

This has been gone over on previous threads but the whole marketing strategay of the main manufacturers has changed and shows no signs of changing back. The days of a model being released and being in the catalogue for many years have vanished, to reduce large volumes of unsold stock sitting around on shelves.

 

We now get a small batch of a particular model, often (but not always) sold out on pre-orders.

 

Modern business is all about a quick return on an investment and not sitting on unsold stock.

 

Now, if putting the prices up (which is probably due more to an upturn in production costs rather than a desire to increase profit levels) resulted in models not being sold, the manufacturers would have to think again and either accept a lower profit or perhaps cut production costs by lowering standards. Once you start lowering profits deliberately, you risk upsetting shareholders/owners.

 

The other options are to increase prices or reduce costs by compromising on quality. Whichever they do, people will complain.

 

What an extra £20 on the price of a loco doesn't do is to "price people out of the hobby". That is they cry of people who think that they have a right to expect top quality models at rock bottom prices.

 

So you have 4 locos instead of 5. Big deal! Most people can only drive one or two at a time anyway.

 

I have been operating under severe financial restraints for several years. I still buy things but I get them on second hand stalls or when somebody is willing to do a deal.

 

I see financial pressure as an opportunity to be creative and to get out the plastic, metal or whatever or to dig one of those kits I have had stashed away for years.

 

I don't whinge. Not for £20.

 

At a minimum wage, somebody will work for around 12 hours to earn £100. Now look at that superb RTR model and work out how long it would take, if you could do it at all, to make one half as good. Now work out how much you should be paying at a sensible hourly rate. Now look at the prices that are charged in other countries for RTR locos. You are still getting a bargain!