Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[jim.snowdon]

15 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

My theory is, and always has been, if you deliver on time and it doesn't work then people never forget because they are exposed to problems daily, whereas if you deliver late but it does work then people quickly forget you were late.  Obviously if you deliver late and it doesn't work then you have a big problem.

And when you not only deliver late, but give people trains early that are shorter than the ones they replaced, with fewer seats (and even fewer that are comfortable) so that more have to stand for longer, it doesn't go down well.

If we must have the 345s, at least getting them into service in their proper 9-car formations would help a bit. Are there any platforms on the Western that have not yet been lengthened for them?

 

Jim 

[DY444]

28 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

And when you not only deliver late, but give people trains early that are shorter than the ones they replaced, with fewer seats (and even fewer that are comfortable) so that more have to stand for longer, it doesn't go down well.

If we must have the 345s, at least getting them into service in their proper 9-car formations would help a bit. Are there any platforms on the Western that have not yet been lengthened for them?

 

Jim 

 

For years the Thames Valley had 2, 3 ,5 and 6 car 165/6 so in that respect 7 cars is an improvement and 9 cars will come in due course.  However I've said many times on here that Crossrail going to Reading is a nonsense and nothing will persuade me otherwise.  The 345s are an inner suburban train and should be used as such.

 

I hold the same view about Thameslink too.  In many respects when it opened it was a project based on the existence of the Snow Hill tunnel and finding a use for it.  Almost a solution looking for a problem.  My observations suggest that very few passengers go beyond zone 1 whether they originate from north or south and the through working is essentially about efficiencies in rolling stock utilisation and saving on platforms at termini.  The flip side is the operational headache. 

 

Crossrail will be a little different as I expect a degree of through travel beyond zone 1 from the east to Heathrow and from the west to Canary Wharf and Stratford but I expect most passengers from west of Zone 6 to change at Ealing Broadway or Paddington for speed and/or avoiding 345s from farther out.  I still think there is a good chance at some future point there will be a rethink and Crossrail will pull out of Reading and terminate everything at some combination of Old Oak, Heathrow, Hayes & H, West Drayton and Slough.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

For years the Thames Valley had 2, 3 ,5 and 6 car 165/6 so in that respect 7 cars is an improvement and 9 cars will come in due course.  However I've said many times on here that Crossrail going to Reading is a nonsense and nothing will persuade me otherwise.  The 345s are an inner suburban train and should be used as such.

 

I hold the same view about Thameslink too.  In many respects when it opened it was a project based on the existence of the Snow Hill tunnel and finding a use for it.  Almost a solution looking for a problem.  My observations suggest that very few passengers go beyond zone 1 whether they originate from north or south and the through working is essentially about efficiencies in rolling stock utilisation and saving on platforms at termini.  The flip side is the operational headache. 

 

Crossrail will be a little different as I expect a degree of through travel beyond zone 1 from the east to Heathrow and from the west to Canary Wharf and Stratford but I expect most passengers from west of Zone 6 to change at Ealing Broadway or Paddington for speed and/or avoiding 345s from farther out.  I still think there is a good chance at some future point there will be a rethink and Crossrail will pull out of Reading and terminate everything at some combination of Old Oak, Heathrow, Hayes & H, West Drayton and Slough.

 

 

You could equally say this about all the tube lines, how many passengers travel from one end to another, some do sometimes, most use the line for short distances. think about how much central London land would be required if all tube lines terminated in central London. I assume crossrail will be much the same and will take some of the pressure of both existing London Termini and tube trains, simply by either keeping travelers on the same train or nearer their destination 

[DY444]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

You could equally say this about all the tube lines, how many passengers travel from one end to another, some do sometimes, most use the line for short distances. think about how much central London land would be required if all tube lines terminated in central London. I assume crossrail will be much the same and will take some of the pressure of both existing London Termini and tube trains, simply by either keeping travelers on the same train or nearer their destination 

 

The analogy with tube lines is not really valid.  Apart from a couple of historical oddities all the tube lines terminate within Greater London and, some sections of SSL and Piccadilly Line apart, generally delays on one don't affect the others.   And the delays that there are are confined wholly to Greater London and the couple of incursions into the Home Counties.  If the Northern Line went to Brighton in the south and Bedford in the north then I might agree with you. 

 

I think Crossrail have got it right with Abbey Wood.  An inter change point roughly where inner suburbia starts to become outer suburbia with dedicated platforms.  Something similar at say Stratford or Ilford and Old Oak or West Drayton with a way of connecting onto the Heathrow branch would have been perfect imo (and I know there's no space blah blah blah - just saying what I think would have been ideal).  Either way going to Reading is, as I said before, a nonsense.

[jim.snowdon]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

For years the Thames Valley had 2, 3 ,5 and 6 car 165/6 so in that respect 7 cars is an improvement and 9 cars will come in due course.  However I've said many times on here that Crossrail going to Reading is a nonsense and nothing will persuade me otherwise.  The 345s are an inner suburban train and should be used as such.

 

I hold the same view about Thameslink too.  In many respects when it opened it was a project based on the existence of the Snow Hill tunnel and finding a use for it.  Almost a solution looking for a problem.  My observations suggest that very few passengers go beyond zone 1 whether they originate from north or south and the through working is essentially about efficiencies in rolling stock utilisation and saving on platforms at termini.  The flip side is the operational headache. 

 

Crossrail will be a little different as I expect a degree of through travel beyond zone 1 from the east to Heathrow and from the west to Canary Wharf and Stratford but I expect most passengers from west of Zone 6 to change at Ealing Broadway or Paddington for speed and/or avoiding 345s from farther out.  I still think there is a good chance at some future point there will be a rethink and Crossrail will pull out of Reading and terminate everything at some combination of Old Oak, Heathrow, Hayes & H, West Drayton and Slough.

We did, and then when electrification arrived, we had 8-car 387s, which makes 7-car largely standee 345s a distinct step backward. 9-cars will be an improvement over 7, but only to reduce the density of standing passengers.

 

Jim 

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

We did, and then when electrification arrived, we had 8-car 387s, which makes 7-car largely standee 345s a distinct step backward. 9-cars will be an improvement over 7, but only to reduce the density of standing passengers.

 

Jim 

And 12 car 387s - one past working of which is now covered by a 345 for some passengers whose Off-Peak tickets are no longer valid on the 12 car 387 worked train.

 

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

For years the Thames Valley had 2, 3 ,5 and 6 car 165/6 so in that respect 7 cars is an improvement and 9 cars will come in due course.  However I've said many times on here that Crossrail going to Reading is a nonsense and nothing will persuade me otherwise.  The 345s are an inner suburban train and should be used as such.

 

I hold the same view about Thameslink too.  In many respects when it opened it was a project based on the existence of the Snow Hill tunnel and finding a use for it.  Almost a solution looking for a problem.  My observations suggest that very few passengers go beyond zone 1 whether they originate from north or south and the through working is essentially about efficiencies in rolling stock utilisation and saving on platforms at termini.  The flip side is the operational headache. 

 

Crossrail will be a little different as I expect a degree of through travel beyond zone 1 from the east to Heathrow and from the west to Canary Wharf and Stratford but I expect most passengers from west of Zone 6 to change at Ealing Broadway or Paddington for speed and/or avoiding 345s from farther out.  I still think there is a good chance at some future point there will be a rethink and Crossrail will pull out of Reading and terminate everything at some combination of Old Oak, Heathrow, Hayes & H, West Drayton and Slough.

The big problem further out is that 345s have essentially taken over roughly 50% of what was previously an almost 100% 387 worked service.  For example currently the bulk of my off-peak connections to/from Reading are covered by TfL trains ei instead of the previous GWR service.  Although I can avoid them (and on occasion have) by lengthening my journey time in order to secure the greater comfort of a 387 - something I've noticed I am not entirely alone in doing as it's not unusual to see passengers let a 345 go if a 387 isn't far behind, especially on longer journeys of say 20 minutes or more.

 

I know from the local rail User Group, and letters in our local 'paper, that the 345s are not well thought of although somewhat perversely one letter to the 'paper blamed GWR for operating them!

[billbedford]

2 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

We did, and then when electrification arrived, we had 8-car 387s, which makes 7-car largely standee 345s a distinct step backward. 9-cars will be an improvement over 7, but only to reduce the density of standing passengers.

 

 

If the experience of LO on the GOBLIN is anything to go by when they went from 2 car sets to 4, it won't. It will just mean than more people will want to travel. 

[billbedford]

What's the capacity of a 387?

[Chris116]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

If the experience of LO on the GOBLIN is anything to go by when they went from 2 car sets to 4, it won't. It will just mean than more people will want to travel. 

I worked in the ticket office at West Brompton from when we had two three car Silverlink trains an hour in each direction which were full in the rush hours. That then moved to four three car trains an hour in each direction when London Overground took the service over. Almost immediately they were fuller than the two trains had been. LO then went to four car trains which were again filled to almost overload situation in a matter of weeks. LO then further increased the trains to five cars and again they filled and are during the rush hours sometimes leaving passengers behind. So the service has moved from 6 cars an hour in two trains to 20 cars an hour in four trains and they are busier than ever. Provide a service and it will be used as Tramlink proved on the Wimbledon to West Croydon service. Cut the service and usage will fall as has been shown in many parts of the country.

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, billbedford said:

What's the capacity of a 387?

It appears to be 223 seats working backwards off a GWR press release about 12 car formations.  Thus 8 cars will give 446 seats and 12 cars will give 669 seats.  According to a web source a 9 car 345 will have 450 seats. so a 7 car 345 will inevitably offer fewer seats than a 8 car 387.  On the outer reacj hes of 345 working it is not too often you see standing passengers, other folk with bikes or baby buggies on a 387 but it is often the case you see them on off-peak 345s - with plenty of empty seats, which sort of tells a story I think.

 

But there is plenty of standing room on a 345, enough for 1,050 people on a 9 car formation, and loads more room because they don't have toilets (and are therefore not compliant with ATOC specs for journeys of over 30 minutes) or any sort of luggage stowage.  And  there are no tables or fold down table-shelves thus making even more room for standing passengers (unless somebody's luggage is in the way)  and you needn't worry about forgetting whatever you put on the luggage rack because they don't have them.  They are basically a bloated UndergrounD train which can run quite fast - 90mph (which makes them 20 mph slower than a 387 - so they're not exactly an ideal pathing mix with that sort of speed differential once you get out beyond Slough).

[Ron Ron Ron]

Crossrail have put out more videos on YouTube, showing the almost ready-to-go status of various Crossrail stations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[billbedford]

But these stations are sooooo boring -- compared with these. 

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, billbedford said:

But these stations are sooooo boring -- compared with these. 

Maybe, but how long would we be waiting if when completed we had to wait for the artists to use their inspiration and we end up with the Lloyds Insurance building rather than a Leonardo 

[Fenman]

On 06/03/2020 at 06:48, DY444 said:

...

My observations suggest that very few passengers go beyond zone 1 whether they originate from north or south

...

I imagine there’s already a significant traffic from the Cambridge/ Peterborough branches to Gatwick Airport. Which I’d guess will only grow.
 

Paul 

[woodenhead]

40 minutes ago, billbedford said:

But these stations are sooooo boring -- compared with these. 

I also guess due to the footfall some of these stations will get they don't want people hanging around gawping at the murals, in and out will be the desired utilisation.

[DY444]

39 minutes ago, Fenman said:

I imagine there’s already a significant traffic from the Cambridge/ Peterborough branches to Gatwick Airport. Which I’d guess will only grow.
 

Paul 

 

"Some" undoubtedly.  "Significant" would be very much at odds with the established TL MML flows.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

But these stations are sooooo boring -- compared with these. 

Is that a reflection on the sort of people that are expected to use the three stations in the videos?

Other stations do/will have artwork installations. The sky as shown recently for example and the superb display at TCR.

I am impressed with the progress at Customs House since I was last there. They have certainly cracked on with the work.

Bernard

[Mike Storey]

6 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Is that a reflection on the sort of people that are expected to use the three stations in the videos?

Other stations do/will have artwork installations. The sky as shown recently for example and the superb display at TCR.

I am impressed with the progress at Customs House since I was last there. They have certainly cracked on with the work.

Bernard

 

True, But that would surely be expected, wouldn't it, considering they should have been open and ready last year? Not exactly impressive as a project, although the stations are impressive as a collection of entities.

[surfsup]

 

This appeared on Youtube this evening, worth a watch (even if it's largely stuff we already know). 

[Bernard Lamb]

37 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

True, But that would surely be expected, wouldn't it, considering they should have been open and ready last year? Not exactly impressive as a project, although the stations are impressive as a collection of entities.

Seeing that there appeared to be very little progress over an eighteen month period I am surprised at the upping of the pace. I will have to take a walk down to Stepney and see how the ground level clearing up is progressing above the area where the branches divide.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

Reported on BBC 13.00 News that although the building and construction industry is allowed to continue working Taylor Wimpey have decided to close all their sites until further notice.

 

More pertinently to this thread the BBC also reported that work is being stopped on all Crossrail construction sites.   So now we  know - opening of Crossrail delayed by Coronavirus, official (all other delays conveniently forgotten?)

[jim.snowdon]

53 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Reported on BBC 13.00 News that although the building and construction industry is allowed to continue working Taylor Wimpey have decided to close all their sites until further notice.

 

More pertinently to this thread the BBC also reported that work is being stopped on all Crossrail construction sites.   So now we  know - opening of Crossrail delayed by Coronavirus, official (all other delays conveniently forgotten?)

Force majeur can be a wonderful thing for a project in difficulties. Cynical, maybe, but I'd be fairly certain that the corporate lawyers will be looking at the options. 

And yes, it does have a positive benefit, at least in the short term, by reducing people's exposure to each other.

 

Jim 

[corneliuslundie]

But it appears to contradict Boris's statement that major construction projects would continue.

Jonathan

[woodenhead]

30 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But it appears to contradict Boris's statement that major construction projects would continue.

Jonathan

But as London is the epicentre of the UK outbreak perhaps it helps to stem the flow of people in and out of London each day if this particular major project gets paused.

 

Maybe though the testing of the trains can continue with measures adopted for social distancing.