Jol Wilkinson Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 John, Are you saying that buffers do not come with the kit? I've had a look and there are no buffers in mine so I'll have to buy some. It isn't unusual for me to take parts from one kit and use it on another so I'm not sure that the shortage is down to me. If LRM don't supply buffers that is certainly a bit off. Bob Bob, LRM kits include buffers (usually AG turned, sprung ones) but are often packed without buffers if there were different types fitted to that loco over time. John Redrup then adds them to the kit when he knows what the customer wants. Occasionally that goes wrong and the kit hasn't any buffers in it (or if like me I use them in something else and forgot I took them out). I suggest you email John Redrup through the LRM website contact page. Jol 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Bob, LRM kits include buffers (usually AG turned, sprung ones) but are often packed without buffers if there were different types fitted to that loco over time. John Redrup then adds them to the kit when he knows what the customer wants. Occasionally that goes wrong and the kit hasn't any buffers in it (or if like me I use them in something else and forgot I took them out). I suggest you email John Redrup through the LRM website contact page. Jol No Bob - there are 2 pairs of turned, sprung buffers in the kit,, but they have square rather than round shanks where they bolt onto the buffer beam. I don't want to give the impression that the kit is deficient in any serious way.It isn't - far from it - but I suppose it shows its age when compared, say, to the ArthurK version. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 John (or anyone else who might be able to help), I'm a bit confused about the the LRM instructions and wondered how you managed your way around the boiler to cab front fit. Paragraph 4.5 states " the two tails of the smokebox, when correctly formed, are the correct distance apart and sit snugly against the inside edges of the cab front". I assume it means firebox not smokebox but that isn't my issue. The suggestion is that the formed sides (and therefore the boiler) fit "inside" the cab edges. Does the boiler fit inside the cab front or just but up against it? The boiler diameter is a good 0.5mm bigger than the etched hole in the front of the cab. I'm not about to file off 0.25mm all the way round this etched area (cos I'm bound to drop a clanger). So, is it correct to fit the boiler to the face of the cab front? If it's not correct and I do fit it that way, will it have an impact on the front mounting point of the smokebox and be out by 0.3mm (cab front thickness) to everything else? Confused from Durham. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hello Mike, John's thread has encouraged me to make a start on my own LRM J25. Many years in the waiting. Your 2 photographs have already proved useful. There are buffer collars provided with the kit bolts. From your photographs you can see that 65693 has 4 bolts on each buffer collar. However, 65695 has 4 bolts on one and 8 on the other. Obviously things could change after maintenance but it is likely to influence my decision on prototype or will encourage me to check if I go for another loco. Thanks, Bob NER taper buffers had four bolts attaching them to the buffer beam. The collars (is that the correct name?) were in two parts held together with four more bolts but these stopped short at the rear collar. In NER days and earlier LNER days the bolts were countersunk so the heads were not visible when painted. In late LNER and BR days round-top heads were used giving the appearance of there being eight fixing bolts. The other thing not normally seen in models is another bolt at right angles to the shank near the front of the buffer. This retains ram & buffer head. My personal view is that the NER taper buffers commercially available have insufficient taper because of the overlarge buffer shank, The shank on NER taper buffers was only three and a half inches (a little over 1mm). I now include solid cast brass buffers in all my newer kits. These have the four bolts on the collar ArthurK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) John (or anyone else who might be able to help), I'm a bit confused about the the LRM instructions and wondered how you managed your way around the boiler to cab front fit. Paragraph 4.5 states " the two tails of the smokebox, when correctly formed, are the correct distance apart and sit snugly against the inside edges of the cab front". I assume it means firebox not smokebox but that isn't my issue. The suggestion is that the formed sides (and therefore the boiler) fit "inside" the cab edges. Does the boiler fit inside the cab front or just but up against it? The boiler diameter is a good 0.5mm bigger than the etched hole in the front of the cab. I'm not about to file off 0.25mm all the way round this etched area (cos I'm bound to drop a clanger). So, is it correct to fit the boiler to the face of the cab front? If it's not correct and I do fit it that way, will it have an impact on the front mounting point of the smokebox and be out by 0.3mm (cab front thickness) to everything else? Confused from Durham. One of the criticisms of the kit is the shape of the firebox, and I must confess I too struggled to make sense of the instructions. I did try to assemble it as suggested in the instructions, ie locating inside the cab front. But it looked wrong, and, using the footplate fixing hole matched to the hole in the boiler bottom made the firebox protrude well into the cab, making fixing the cast backhead impossible. Whether my solution is strictly accurate - I don't have an Isinglass drawing - what I did was to use the fixing point as a marker and then remove sufficient metal on the firebox to allow a snug fit against the outside of the cab. This also gives more freedom to bend the firebox bottom to be more accurate - I'm sure it should be wider than it would be if forced into the cutout of the cab front. Mike's build on his thread gives a good idea of what the final shape should look like.. Equally confused from Tyneside Edited January 4, 2018 by rowanj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 When folk refer to ‘collars’ on buffers to what feature are they referring please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) One of the criticisms of the kit is the shape of the firebox, and I must confess I too struggled to make sense of the instructions. I did try to assemble it as suggested in the instructions, ie locating inside the cab front. But it looked wrong, and, using the footplate fixing hole matched to the hole in the boiler bottom made the firebox protrude well into the cab, making fixing the cast backhead impossible. Whether my solution is strictly accurate - I don't have an Isinglass drawing - what I did was to use the fixing point as a marker and then remove sufficient metal on the firebox to allow a snug fit against the outside of the cab. This also gives more freedom to bend the firebox bottom to be more accurate - I'm sure it should be wider than it would be if forced into the cutout of the cab front. Mike's build on his thread gives a good idea of what the final shape should look like.. Equally confused from Tyneside John, The design feature of the firebox actually protruding into the cab is not present on Arthur's J25, though the LRM B16/1, which I built, did use this technique with the firebox/backhead protruding about 5 mm into the cab. On the B16/1 I formed the firebox curves and then fitted a firebox former, about 2 mm from the rear of the firebox. This former had been checked against the aperture in the cab front and they differed only by the thickness of the firebox wrapper, which was correct. This meant that the former had to be an exact fit, with no gaps, into the rear of the firebox in order for the wrapped firebox to pass through the cab front. This did take a couple of hours to get 'spot on' but it was done without any gaps showing. The B16/1 backhead, which was scratch built, was then fitted to the rear of the firebox and shaped to exactly coincide with the firebox shape, again so that the whole assembly will pass through the cab front. Again, this shaping was done very, very slowly. It takes time (quite a lot of it) to achieve fully matching profiles on these 'related' assemblies!! On Arthur's J25 kit, the firebox butts up to the cab front and fits over some petals which surround the cab front opening, Even so, these are only a guide and the firebox must be formed correctly to avoid any gaps between it and the cab front. Again, this forming was done very slowly and was constantly checked against the etching on the cab front. Only when I was completely satisfied was the firebox finally fixed to the cab front. The whole exercise of forming the firebox curves took perhaps two hours. The flange plates, which are located at the bottom of each side of the firebox, also provide a final check on the firebox width, as they locate into slots on the footplate.. When forming the fireboxes on Arthur's kits, I use a wooden block (measured to be the exact distance between the lower portions of the firebox and longer than the firebox) to check the firebox width. Only when this block fits precisely with both sides of the lower extremities of the firebox and along the full length of the firebox, is the width and profile of the firebox considered to be correct. The attached photos should show the J25 firebox and its relationship to the cab front and the firebox and backhead of the B16/1, though the sequence of the photos is 'all to ---k'. Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) When folk refer to ‘collars’ on buffers to what feature are they referring please Would "flange" be a more accurate description? We are referring to the round metal "collars" at the buffer beam end of the buffers where they are attached. Mike's latest photo illustrates them perfectly. On this kit, they are designed to sit behind the buffer casting, soldered to the buffer beam, I photographed the etches at 237, and you can see the collars - 2 on each of the first and second etches. Edited January 5, 2018 by rowanj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Would "flange" be a more accurate description? We are referring to the round metal collars" at the buffer beam end of the buffers where they are attached. Mike's latest photo illustrates them perfectly. On this kit, they are designed ti sit behind the buffer casting, soldered to the buffer beam, John, Arthur (yes, i know I keep mentioning him and his kits) produces lost wax brass castings for both the LNER group standard buffers and for NER tapered buffers. The latter, the NER buffers, include the collar with four bolts, so the castings can be fitted directly to the buffer beam and - job done! Where the NER buffers have been packed out - to accommodate the LNER drawgear - then a suitable washer (n/silver or brass) can be inserted over the spigot of the casting and sandwiched between the casting and the bufferbeam. Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Thanks Mike. I think you have given more perfect examples of the quality of Arthur's designs and the tips helpful to assist in kit building generally. I've sent you a PM. I wonder if the firebox issue on the LRM J25 is an effect of the O to OO reduction. There are 2 slots in the footplate ahead of the cab front where the firebox sits, but they are well outside the line of the cab cutout,. There are no locating slots in the boiler/smokebox to match them, but, after studying prototype photos and your model. I concluded that they were more or less (not very precise, I know) where the firebox bottom should meet the footplate, some used them as a guide until it looked right. I probably spent the same couple of hours as you trying to get it to look right, though I doubt I achieved your accuracy. John Edited January 5, 2018 by rowanj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Thanks Mike. I think you have given more perfect examples of the quality of Arthur's designs and the tips helpful to assist in kit building generally. I've sent you a PM. I wonder if the firebox issue on the LRM J25 is an effect of the O to OO reduction. There are 2 slots in the footplate ahead of the cab front where the firebox sits, but they are well outside the line of the cab cutout,. There are no locating slots in the boiler/smokebox to match them, but, after studying prototype photos and your model. I concluded that they were more or less (not very precise, I know) where the firebox bottom should meet the footplate, some used them as a guide until it looked right. I probably spent the same couple of hours as you trying to get it to look right, though I doubt I achieved your accuracy. John John, Thanks for the kind words. I think I have benefitted from doing these test builds for Arthur in many ways :- Inevitably, there are no instructions for the test builds and, often, the etchings have never been assembled so there is no guarantee (other than Arthur's skill, which is considerable) that things will fit, hence the emphasis on checking and double checking. The sequence of assembly has to be deduced (no instructions) and, even then, is oft times deduced wrongly! Folks talk (and post) about a two foot rule, three foot rule, but with these test builds, then the rule has to be the minimum focal length of the digital camera in macro mode - around nine inches! Now I use the same rule (the minimum focal length of the digital camera in macro mode - around nine inches) on all builds; there are no exceptions. Anyway, it has been, and is, a great learning curve and a very enjoyable one. Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 The instructions for the LRM J25 explains: "Prepare the cab front - this was originally designed for use with a turned boiler and separate etched parts for the firebox side. we have now replaced the boiler with an etched component, supplied ready-rolled, and the etched firebox sides ......... should be discarded". I think the etched holes in the footplate will have been to accept these firebox sides. What I don't understand is, if these slots mark the required position of the firebox sides, why weren't tabs included on the replacement etched part? Furthermore, these slots line up with modification made to the cab front and suggest that the firebox should fit inside the cab front. This means that I must remove 0.25mm from the hole in the cab front to be able to accept the firebox. Bearing in mind that this is a kit and not a scratch built model, I think it is unacceptable to be forced to spend 2 hours modifying parts which should have been etched to the correct dimension in the first place. The alternative is that the manufacturer sends me several sheets of brass and I will do the work for him. If this is the approach of some kit manufacturers, is it a surprise that many modellers are put off from kit building. I am still at the early stage of this build and I'm already identified issues with the design of the kit and the reliability of the instructions. Goodness knows what there is to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I'll feedback your comments to John Redrup at LRM. I haven't built any NER locos kits, other than the NER G1/LNER D23 which I designed for LRM using, among other things, a copy of the GA.. This has a 4' 3" (plus cladding) diameter boiler IIRC, which may be the same as the J25. If so, the attached pdf of the internal firebox former for the D23 may be of help in working out the firebox cross section.. The boiler on the D23 is held in place by a bolts though the cab front and up through the footplate into the underside of the smokebox. The former shown fits inside the back of the firebox. NER G1 boiler former.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) I'll feedback your comments to John Redrup at LRM. I haven't built any NER locos kits, other than the NER G1/LNER D23 which I designed for LRM using, among other things, a copy of the GA.. This has a 4' 3" (plus cladding) diameter boiler IIRC, which may be the same as the J25. If so, the attached pdf of the internal firebox former for the D23 may be of help in working out the firebox cross section.. The boiler on the D23 is held in place by a bolts though the cab front and up through the footplate into the underside of the smokebox. The former shown fits inside the back of the firebox. NER G1 boiler former.pdf Hello Jol, Could you add a scale to the pdf so that I can ensure the correct copy size please? Bob By the way, I built a LRM G5 with no such issues. Edited January 5, 2018 by RBAGE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Bob, sorry I forgot that. The page size is A4. Jol NER G1 boiler former.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Hello Jol, Could you add a scale to the pdf so that I can ensure the correct copy size please? Bob By the way, I built a LRM G5 with no such issues. And I have three LRM (ex George Norton) G5's to build. So a reasonable 'vote of confidence' in their kits! I've seen this kit built a few times and it does build into a lovely model though, like all etched kits, it requires care and attention to detail to attain the best results! Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yes- I'd forgotten to mention the instruction to remove the indicated parts of the etch from the cab front, Even so, I found I couldn't match the profile of the cutout with the firebox photos. How much of that was me and how much was the kit design is another matter... However, as far as general assembly is concerned, I suspect you will find that that is the only tricky bit, and I find it tricky on all etched kits I've built.! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yes- I'd forgotten to mention the instruction to remove the indicated parts of the etch from the cab front, Even so, I found I couldn't match the profile of the cutout with the firebox photos. How much of that was me and how much was the kit design is another matter... However, as far as general assembly is concerned, I suspect you will find that that is the only tricky bit, and I find it tricky on all etched kits I've built.! Another issue is that you are instructed to fit the cab front with the etched side of the spectacle windows facing into the cab. That would make the etched slot for the reversing lever on the wrong side. No big issue but I would have expected etched rings for the spectacle windows (as per side windows) but I can't find any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I have built the J25 without problems. I bought mine as a 07 models kit but got an etched boiler off George later. I fitted this into the cab as per design and can't recall any problems with it The instructions were brief with a drawing of the loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowanj Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 It just needs crew and tender buffers fitted, so these pics will complete the LRM J25 build. It had it's challenges, and has it's issues, but I enjoyed building it and I'm happy with what I've got at the end of the exercise. Other than the issues on the firebox/cab relationship, I "had" to ;- Build the 2 levers in the cab and the shelves above the cab seats/rear splashers Use crankpin washers to represent where the handrails meet the cab front Fabricate the reinforcing strip where the firebox meets the footplate Replace the provided buffers with more prototypical looking ones Ditto for chimney dome and smokebox door (though I stress this was just my personal preference), Fabricate NER style lamp irons (from a 52F etch) Fit wire to represent sandpipes on the chassis. I also found the fold-up version of the tender chassis too wide to allow the fitting of wheels in OO. I don't have any problem in recommending the kit. For a more modern, better detailed version, ArthurK's will be a better bet when it is available, as Mike's build demonstrates. However ,the LRM version may prove easier to get hold of - I don't know what sort of production run Arthur has in mind. As I've said, I'm not going to post any more builds unless something different turns up - unlikely in the case of the next couple, a Dave Alexander Fletcher Cab J77 and a PDK B16/2. But I'm grateful to hose who have followed my adventures and have offered help and encouragement. Thank you. John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) John, Looks the part, though you appear to have fitted a screw coupling to the front of the loco when this loco is not vacuum fitted. Would this loco would have had a screw coupling or three link coupling? Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Mike, Your post 331 shows a loco with screw coupling with apparently no vacuum. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Mike, Your post 331 shows a loco with screw coupling with apparently no vacuum. Bob Bob, It does, yes. But another photo of this same loco - 65693 - shows it with a three link coupling, so I guess either is correct. I wonder if the fireman, shown on this photo, is within the loading gauge? Cheers Mike Edited January 5, 2018 by mikemeg 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted January 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) May I add the following comments regarding various comments on this thread.1. I simply used the term collars because that what others were using. Buffer flange would seen to be more appropriate although I don't know the correct term.2. NER unfitted locos were normally had three-link couplings but looking at Mike's photo screw couplings were not unknown.3. The J25 boiler was a nominal 4' 3" diameter. Add the cladding to that and it becomes 4' 6 1/2". the firebox base was 3' 11" wide and assuming that the cladding there was the same as the rest of the boiler it becomes (say) 4' 3" which is the dimension that I use.4. Most, if not all, NER cabs with round windows did NOT have a brass bezel surrounding them. The brass that you see in photos was the opening window frame BEHIND the cab front sheet. This was often kept polished by the crew.I hope that this clarifies a few points.ArthurK Edited January 5, 2018 by ArthurK 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Now I understand what the term ‘collar’ is meant to convey. A previous generation thought of them as ‘buffer bases’ because the were cast vertically. Yer pays yer money... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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