Coleshill (Forge Mills ) layout and stock

[farren]

I have to admit 6170 is one of my favourite 4-6-0s. when Tommy designed her he did a wonderful job.

Though the sloping steam pipes hindered the steaming of the locomotive it did make it distinctive and pleasing to the eye. 
 

I’ve  done this model a couple of time. And have spoken to Ian the smoke box works out as a couple of mm longer. If I remember correctly you need the running plate of a re-built Scot with the cab of the re- pat pat. The Scot as the buffer beam small cuts outs  the frame extensions are unique to 6170 but not that hard to make from plasticard. 
 

I did build my in late BR condition but after switching to pre war LMS I stripped it down and re built it. 
 

look forward to seeing your build. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by farren

[46256]

Hello Farren, as you know I follow both your and Iain’s work on the ex LMS fleet. I have both the RB patriot and Scot bodies which will be soon dismantled to utilise the various parts required. May I ask can you remember where the cuts were made to elongate the smoke box. The bulbous steam pipes, yes the raked ones were eye catching, the late David Jenkinson if I recall,stated it was his favourite design. I am awaiting delivery of the chassis and new mounting piece and ensuring that works before commencing on the body works. In the meantime looking for appropriate material to create those steam pipes.  I’m also conscious this thread sits under kitbuild and scratch, most of the work described is really modifying rtr… 

[46256]

As a bit of a diversion my now former colleague and fellow railway nut Guy, asked me to build this Hardys Hobbies Manning Wardle H class. It fits a Hornby Peckett W class 040 chassis. It has working three link couplings. The wagon is one I converted at one end to couple up to my big Bertha build. The chassis is a superb runner. Guy has left me the Peckett body, which is the same type as those used at Hams Hall. I’ve just got to buy my own chassis to under it. Method in my madness though some of the Pecketts offered on eBay don’t have my preferred body, the one I’ve just acquired though is .

[John Tomlinson]

26 minutes ago, 46256 said:

Hello Farren, as you know I follow both your and Iain’s work on the ex LMS fleet. I have both the RB patriot and Scot bodies which will be soon dismantled to utilise the various parts required. May I ask can you remember where the cuts were made to elongate the smoke box. The bulbous steam pipes, yes the raked ones were eye catching, the late David Jenkinson if I recall,stated it was his favourite design. I am awaiting delivery of the chassis and new mounting piece and ensuring that works before commencing on the body works. In the meantime looking for appropriate material to create those steam pipes.  I’m also conscious this thread sits under kitbuild and scratch, most of the work described is really modifying rtr… 

 

More interesting progress on Water Orton.

 

I noticed you've kept the Bachmann chassis with "Eire" and wondered if you have a hard and fast criteria for building a new chassis, such as the RTR one is split chassis design, or just broken? I find the new Bachmann and Hornby chassis often to be pretty good, although the models may need a clean and oil, and also some weight.

 

I had the same thought in your last sentence when I started a (much shorter) workbench thread in K&S. Very difficult unless a very prolific modeller to run two, the other in "modifying RTR", and anyway where would you draw the line? Soldering up a Comet chassis and assembling the vale gear is a fair bit more than simple modification, I suspect many on here would regard anything with an iron as beyond them - even though you and I know it really isn't!

 

Best wishes,

 

John.

[46256]

Thanks John we both follow a number of threads on a number of topics, what they all have in common is sheer enthusiasm,and an enjoyment in creating or improving on something. I have no hard and fast rule in respect of chassis. My modelling reawakening happened in the mid seventies when Mainline and Airfix set new standards. I never thought I would see model Peaks or Royal Scot’s… then Jubilees. Of course we then discovered the limitations of the split chassis and tender drive . In my case another milestone….the old Tennents shop in Halesowen town centre.it was a three storey Victorian building, a mixture of pharmacy and model shop.  I became good friends with the Tennent brothers , other members of staff and other regular customers. I was entrusted to go upstairs to the higher levels. All sorts of modelling delights were found. Nick Tilson of N brass locos repute had a small workshop tucked away up a corner of the second floor behind book racks full of modelling magazines. I spent many happy hours in Nicks company as he repaired yet another customer loco. He introduced me to Model Railway Journal, of which there were many on the shelf. I was smitten by the Finescale bug. It coincided with my frustration with the tender drive and split chassis RTR. I resolved to go EM, it was also the time that Comet models, at that time a part Birmingham based enterprise was launched. I resolved to have a small fleet of locos and build a fictional layout on a might have been branch from Whitacre to Coleshill town centre. ( This was an alternative to the real line the Stonebridge railway that ran from whitacre to Hampton in Arden and bypassed the town). My small collection of Finescale EM locos and stock soon went adrift as more and more excellent RTR became available. I then decided to build my layout of a lifetime Water Orton.  One too many botched EM conversion of an expensive Hornby chassis led me to re gauge to OO. I had built Water Orton by then so all the track had to be relayed. A number of locos were sold rather than try to regauge to OO …many with Portescap motors

 

Sorry to go on in simple answer I enjoy building chassis. My mantra, the end of the day if it ain’t broke don’t fix it I have a number of split chassis which still run well.

 

or is it as Terry Wogan stated if it ain’t broke fix it till it is !

 

best wishes Brian

[farren]

5 hours ago, 46256 said:

Hello Farren, as you know I follow both your and Iain’s work on the ex LMS fleet. I have both the RB patriot and Scot bodies which will be soon dismantled to utilise the various parts required. May I ask can you remember where the cuts were made to elongate the smoke box. The bulbous steam pipes, yes the raked ones were eye catching, the late David Jenkinson if I recall,stated it was his favourite design. I am awaiting delivery of the chassis and new mounting piece and ensuring that works before commencing on the body works. In the meantime looking for appropriate material to create those steam pipes.  I’m also conscious this thread sits under kitbuild and scratch, most of the work described is really modifying rtr… 

The cuts are along the line between the smoke box/ boiler joint for both smoke boxes. One of the smoke box’s you then cut 2 mm from the cut you’ve just made. Which gives you the extension you need. The rivet detail will need sorting as you wil have the duplicate of the end rivets. As for the steam pipes for the square type I glued pieces of plasticard together and filled to shape. I went that way as I could use plastic weld to glue to the model giving a much stronger model. 

[46256]

Thank you Farren I’ve just spent the afternoon trying to shape a piece of square brass into the required form. You probably do the same, you leave your work say overnight, then return later..and what seemed ok isn’t quite right. I feel this is going to be a learning process. I too love plastic weld and probably try that method as well. Sincere thanks for your reply and assistance. Best wishes Brian

[46256]

Thank you to both Iain and Farren. I think I have the process of creating the boiler and smokebox for 46170. The RB patriot uppers will have a cut 5 mm into the smokebox. This will replicate the extra 15 inches in boiler length. Rivet detail will be filed off and new top feed moved back on boiler. Smokebox from Royal Scot will be initially cut at the rivet line with boiler. It will further be reduced by 2mm hopefully retaining the rivet detail with smokebox door, and glued to the revised Patriot boiler. The smokebox cradle position altered. This assembly with the Patriot cab still in place, will then be attached to the Royal Scot running plate. New smokebox steam pipes to be created and added. In the words of that great spoof series Soap….confused you will be!

Edited July 10, 2022 by 46256

[46256]

Well in scenes reminiscent of the scrapping shed at Crewe works, and thinking of that great Cat Stevens /PP Arnold song “the first cut is the deepest” 

 

Shortened smokebox added to elongated boiler firebox, top feed removed and first attempt at steam pipe showing the brass square it was produced from

[46256]

46170 taking shape. Uppers now United with Scot running plate. The reversing lever fettled out of spare etch, missing pipe work replaced and top feed added.

Blinking hot up the loft…hope it’s worth it ! Perched on Galateas chassis for effect

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by 46256

[92220]

Hi Brian,

nice work.  It’s complicated even though the alterations appear small.  I would still like to redo mine.

did you replace the Hornby Rebuilt Scot/Pat chimney?  The Brassmasters one is a big improvement I think.  Also the Comet/Wizard one seems a better shape to me.

best wishes 

Iain

[farren]

43 minutes ago, 92220 said:

Hi Brian,

nice work.  It’s complicated even though the alterations appear small.  I would still like to redo mine.

did you replace the Hornby Rebuilt Scot/Pat chimney?  The Brassmasters one is a big improvement I think.  Also the Comet/Wizard one seems a better shape to me.

best wishes 

Iain

I remember when the re built Scot’s and re built Pats 1st came out Hornby dropped the ball with the chimney. There was a lot written about it on this forum and others. For once Hornby did take notice the following year the next batch  had a total redesign on the chimney. I thought they had got it right if memory serves. Trouble was the first run had a large number if I remember there where 4 possible even 6 models that year. (It’s a while ago so numbers are a bit iffy) 

[46256]

Thanks both , the chimney used is from the Scot body. I remember the views back then and indeed changed one of mine for the Comet version. I’ll be honest I’ve been preoccupied with other aspects of the conversion to register if it is a good representation of the one fitted to Legion. I’m in the process of buying other bits and pieces like whistle and smokebox door dart so may well be replaced, best wishes Brian

[46256]

Returning to John’s earlier message concerning chassis, I remember the frustration when my barely run Hornby Scot gears failed to mesh. If this had been through extensive use it may have been acceptable. In this case the loco had been taken out of the box , had completed a couple of circuits of the layout, then sat on my stock shelf for quite sometime. The failure was poor quality material literally corroding whilst it stood there. I mention this as I’m awaiting the chassis listed as spares describing this problem . I have the replacement retainer part and am eager to discover if this will solve the problem. I’ve been looking at the instructions which are with the eBay listing and it involves complete removal of the old retainer and attachments. I will record here how I get on. I still have a number of Hornby locos from this era when this Mazak rot , I think it’s called, was at its height. In fact the spare chassis has just been delivered ….more soon

[46256]

The Scot chassis has arrived, firstly my thoughts on the gear meshing problem. I believe at its heart is a poor design. It relies on the downward pressure of the motor worm gear / shaft,  to stay aligned. The first idler gear lies directly below the worm gears, on a groove in the frames, there are no side bearings to retain it. In every kit built gearbox , I have constructed from a number of sources , this first gear is captured by bearings allowing for a a nice mesh with a correctly positioned motor. This courtesy of the baseplate to make a true connection. The downward pressure, on the Hornby version, is created by the retaining piece, lying on the motor shaft. The retainer also has forward lugs, either side, that sit on the idler gear keeping that in situ.
My new chassis was lacking this vital mesh. I removed the retainer, the fixing post to the chassis was indeed broken. The kit comes with a new baseplate with post which was glued in place on the chassis. The new retainer was screwed to this, no mesh still. I finally filed the securing lugs allowing for a small piece either side to engage with the idler shaft…creating a T shape on the lugs. This is trial and error but with success. The chassis is now running well, slight modifications are required to fit it to my revamped loco body .

Edited July 14, 2022 by 46256

[46256]

Well famous last words. On my return to the loft gears unmeshed again, try as I might it will not run properly, or at least to my satisfaction. I’m glad I’ve tried this method but the lesson for me ….comet chassis high level gears will be my preferred method of powering my LMS fleet.  The Hornby chassis will be stripped wheels cylinders and motion added to comet frames. 46170 will have the Portescap powered chassis currently sitting under 46120.

[41516]

20 minutes ago, 46256 said:

wheels cylinders and motion added to comet frames

 

Could I ask what bearings do you use with Comet frames when recycling Hornby wheelsets?  I had a plan to use a set with Comet frames, but there is more slop than I'd like in the 1/8" bearings and I've not been able to find any with 3mm ID.

[46256]

Good  evening 41516 I use the supplied 1/8th bearings,.

 

I have used them now in a number of comet chassis, with Hornby wheels and axles. I have not experienced any problems using them with high level gearboxes, which also have the same bearings.

[41516]

Thanks.  I'll order a set from Comet/Wizard (none supplied with the Black 5 frames that arrived last week)  - I can't remember where my last handful of bearings came from (Eileen's?) and they might come a little looser on the inner bore.  I do remember the bearings I used with Comet Jinty chassis needed a slight bit of broaching to fit the axles, so Comet/Wizard may be the answer.

[46256]

Yes my broach set is well used.
One of my best purchases in recent times, bought when I was scratch building my own frames , during the period Comet was in limbo,  is a five sided broach, great for opening out bearing  holes in frames , and the bearings themselves.

[46256]

Steam pipes fettled from brass, the nameplate splasher is due to have the excellent Fox British legion plates added, then to the loco…getting there, sitting on its new chassis donated by another of my Scots….portescap powered

[5 C]

On 13/07/2022 at 15:15, 46256 said:

The Scot chassis has arrived, firstly my thoughts on the gear meshing problem. I believe at its heart is a poor design. It relies on the downward pressure of the motor worm gear / shaft,  to stay aligned. The first idler gear lies directly below the worm gears, on a groove in the frames, there are no side bearings to retain it. In every kit built gearbox , I have constructed from a number of sources , this first gear is captured by bearings allowing for a a nice mesh with a correctly positioned motor. This courtesy of the baseplate to make a true connection. The downward pressure, on the Hornby version, is created by the retaining piece, lying on the motor shaft. The retainer also has forward lugs, either side, that sit on the idler gear keeping that in situ.
My new chassis was lacking this vital mesh. I removed the retainer, the fixing post to the chassis was indeed broken. The kit comes with a new baseplate with post which was glued in place on the chassis. The new retainer was screwed to this, no mesh still. I finally filed the securing lugs allowing for a small piece either side to engage with the idler shaft…creating a T shape on the lugs. This is trial and error but with success. The chassis is now running well, slight modifications are required to fit it to my revamped loco body .

This topic has come up elsewhere and I've commented, like you, that the whole chassis is a poor design. The design of the motor/gear retainer is just odd, with the lugs far too thin to withstand the forces exerted or it seems, extensive usage. The method of attaching the motion bracket (a push fit into a moulded slot) is a lazy design, prone to coming loose. Contrast this with say, the Black 5 chassis from the same era which is better thought out and more substantial in its construction.

 

I have a reasonable fleet of Hornby Scots (and Patriots which use the same chassis), which have or will suffer the same fate. Confirmation that recycling the wheel sets and motion is feasible using a Comet chassis and bearings is reassuring, as they are otherwise good models, essential for any WCML setting.

[46256]

Hello Andy, thank you for confirming my diagnosis of this problem. On the plus side  the second hand market is flush with Scot and Patriot bodies…. It was seeing the advert for the replacement retainer which made me venture down this route again. I’m sorry but it doesn’t address the fundamental flaw you describe. I would like to reuse the motion but again the motion bracket fudge doesn’t lend itself apparently to use with comet frames? I do have a set on order so will see if I can overcome that drawback. You may notice I have little drawers full of bits and pieces…just found a spare comet double chimney for the Scot….plus horizontal whistle. This find was sadly after ordering same…I will never be rich. Chimney now in place on model.

On the subject of gear design Heljan have a fantastic all in one set up in their 47 xx which just lifts out, then drops back in. That’s the good news, the rest of the  chassis as reported on this this thread, needed loads of work , so much so I would have been better served by building one from scratch. It kept me out of mischief!

[46256]

Too hot up loft nearly melted creating new steps as shown. Transfers being added in the relative cool of my dining room. More tomorrow

[46256]

I’ve just been up the sauna…sorry loft and have been running 46170. I noticed it develop a curious gait whilst negotiating a straight length of track in the fiddle yard…not far from my velux window……it’s not just the full size railway suffering from rail buckling due to heat! I think it will need replacing.