PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[bertiedog]

Really sorry to disagree, but unless the new points are similar to the Warley sample, why would they cost 100% more than the current offering? If I am going to be paying £30 a pop then I want something that looks a lot better than the current HO offering with just a change in rail profile and sleeper spacing as this would still be nowhere near the same standard that we now expect for loco's and rolling stock. 

I really cannot see Peco introducing a product which is visually inferior and so different to the sample which was seen at the Warley Exhibition by so many. They would be shooting themselves in the foot, especially as the motivation to introduce these products in the first place was due to the forthcoming availability of realistic product from alternative manufacturers

I use slow action point motors so I take the spring out of the point and I think the general movement in point motors is away from solenoid type which require the centre over spring.

I really do hope we don't get the hinged blades as I for one will think twice about paying the premium for something which is not that much better than what we already have.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

The difference is the cross section of the rail, bullhead is more difficult to locate in the moulds so is inserted into the moulding afterwards , a more costly procedure than the basic flatbottom. Also at least till it takes off the price must reflect that it is a niche market, not as big as the current products and therefore any profit will be wafer thin, it may even be a lost leader for them till sales pick up as it gets more popular. There are other ways to hinge the blades but the current method works well, and gives a light action. So far Peco have not released any further details, but the cost reflects the market and I don't think it will alter. Whatever happens in the details it looks like a great success even before release.

[Pacific231G]

On a dawn raid into Kent from my long boat (well into Faversham, the Hobby Shop - most truly excellent), I obtained a dozen short metres by threat of parting with your English pounds.

 

On my return to the Mother Barn, where I am sacreligiously using Peco Code 83 for the BR running lines (for the Code 8 angle point work) I posed the new Peco Code 75 BH track. The contrast is outstandingly outstanding, and my sidings will be very clearly differentiated from the rest. Something you could not really do before, unless you built it yurslve.

 

Thank you M. Pritchard and your Patent Product Company.

Funny thing is that I've been looking at some old images of mainline track on the old Ouest/Etat out of the Gare St. Lazare and the sleeper spacing and width looks more lke American practice so maybe 83 line would be a contender.

 

 

They also seem to have made their sleepers on the "wild west" principle of splitting a suitable log, knocking the bark off and planing a couple of flats to screw the rail to before chucking it onto the ballast. Some of the sleepers they were using with bullhead rail and chairs weren't much better. I know the Ouest was going bust before the Etat took it over before WW1 but really !!

 

I am eyeing up the new Peco bullhead track for service in H0 sidings in La France Profonde and I suspect the St. Malo corsairs will soon be pillaging model shops along the S. coast and spiriting this track across the channel. I wonder if the millenium beacons are still in working order.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Pacific231G

[bertiedog]

Maybe the State of the French track indicated a wood shortage during the period of WW1 forcing the use of split wood. Materials for the front came first, and decent wood may have been hard to find.

Stephen

[hayfield]

, it may even be a lost leader for them till sales pick up as it gets more popular. 

 

Or to retain their dominance in the mass sales market.

 

The additional benefits they have over their competitors are, keeping everything in house, their purchasing power to lower costs, economies of scale

[Adams442T]

 Also at least till it takes off the price must reflect that it is a niche market, not as big as the current products and therefore any profit will be wafer thin, it may even be a lost leader for them till sales pick up as it gets more popular. There are other ways to hinge the blades but the current method works well, and gives a light action. So far Peco have not released any further details, but the cost reflects the market and I don't think it will alter. 

 

As Steve45 said, I cannot believe that Peco would even consider offering a 'hinged blade' point.  Anything materially different from the sample shown at Warley would surely raise a huge outcry, and really cause their sales to 'bomb'.  We have already been told that the degree of hand-assembly would mean an increase in price.

 

I also cannot believe that it will be sold as a 'loss leader' either.  That implies an increase at some future stage, when we have already been primed for a higher price over the standard product.  One of my primary reasons for using hand-built trackwork was the appalling 'hinged blades'.   I may be considering changing to this improved appearance track, but NOT if it was released with hinged blades!

[hayfield]

As Steve45 said, I cannot believe that Peco would even consider offering a 'hinged blade' point.  Anything materially different from the sample shown at Warley would surely raise a huge outcry, and really cause their sales to 'bomb'.  We have already been told that the degree of hand-assembly would mean an increase in price.

 

I also cannot believe that it will be sold as a 'loss leader' either.  That implies an increase at some future stage, when we have already been primed for a higher price over the standard product.  One of my primary reasons for using hand-built trackwork was the appalling 'hinged blades'.   I may be considering changing to this improved appearance track, but NOT if it was released with hinged blades!

 

 

The first thing is, was the item shown at Warley a prototype or pre-production model ? either way the final production model could still differ

 

As for price with some quoting £30 each, I think Peco would seriously damage their sales potentials of both the turnouts and flexi track, on the other hand I guess one should plan perhaps for a 50% increase in costs.

 

They may take some time to recoup the development costs, lost leader is a strong term but they could keep prices down by reducing their and the dealers margins as the real profits could come from flexi track sales and reducing lost sales to competitors, you could call it a lost leader on the other hand an inducement to buy other new product (flexitrack) which sells in much greater numbers and is far more profitable and or keeping the competition out of the market, A sales strategy I guess is already well planned for pricing the range and its profitably    

[Pacific231G]

Maybe the State of the French track indicated a wood shortage during the period of WW1 forcing the use of split wood. Materials for the front came first, and decent wood may have been hard to find.

Stephen

Hi Stephen, by split I didn't mean that the wood had spits in it but that it was rather crudely split from a log with the minimum of saw cuts. Your point about the effect of WW1 on the production of sleepers is interesting though and the trenches certainly had a voracious appetite for timber. I'm wondering if these sleepers had been cut in fairly crude sawmills in the forests rather than by the usual specialist sleeper making facilities.

 

During WW1 a lot extra forestry activity did take place, particularly in the vast artificial pine forests of Gascogny. The French, Canadian and American armies all had forestry units with thousands of men working in the region and NG railways, some of them quite extensive, were built to bring the felled timber  to their sawmills. .

Edited January 9, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Roy Langridge]

As for price with some quoting £30 each, I think Peco would seriously damage their sales potentials of both the turnouts and flexi track, on the other hand I guess one should plan perhaps for a 50% increase in costs.

I have no issue with £30 a point. Why? What is the cost of a point kit or parts? What is the cost of my time? When I take that into account and look at the prototype I think it balances out well.

 

Secondly, it is made in the UK. Look at other threads bemoaning late delivery/ lack of control from Chinese factories and wishing for UK production. Well, here is the answer and we may need to pay for it.

 

Roy

Edited January 9, 2017 by Roy Langridge

['CHARD]

I have no issue with £30 a point. Why? What is the cost of a point kit or parts? What is the cost of my time? When I take that into account and look at the prototype I think it balances out well.

 

Secondly, it is made in the UK. Look at other threads bemoaning late delivery/ lack of control from Chinese factories and wishing for UK production. Well, here is the answer and we may need to pay for it.

 

Roy

 

Who's this Johnny come lately Langridge fella anyway?  Barely 200 posts and I find myself clicking Agree rather a lot, plus I get the impression he has a fancy for the Transition Era!

 

Cheers Roy!!!!

[Roy Langridge]

Who's this Johnny come lately Langridge fella anyway? Barely 200 posts and I find myself clicking Agree rather a lot, plus I get the impression he has a fancy for the Transition Era!

 

Cheers Roy!!!!

LOL. I'm firmly in the TOPS era myself, but only just.

 

Roy

[sp1]

I have no issue with £30 a point. Why? What is the cost of a point kit or parts? What is the cost of my time? When I take that into account and look at the prototype I think it balances out well.

 

Secondly, it is made in the UK. Look at other threads bemoaning late delivery/ lack of control from Chinese factories and wishing for UK production. Well, here is the answer and we may need to pay for it.

 

Roy

I agree with most of that. The fact that it is made in the UK means ready availability- if stocks run low you don't need to wait for it to be made in China (or elsewhere) and then add on three months or so while it floats across the sea.

 

I would hope, however, that the price is nearer to £20, which is still nearly double the price of the current medium radius (yes, I know the first release will be large radius).

 

I take your point about building track - something I enjoy but have limited time for - factoring in your time is, I think, debatable for what is an enjoyable hobby activity but if you look at the cost of a Marcway (copperclad) turnout at around £25 this gives some sort of perspective- and that for something completely hand made.

 

Even though they say there will be some hand assembly Peco will still be mass producing a lot of the parts by machine- something the home builder or even Marcway would be unable to do. For this reason I suspect the price will be below £30: or to put it another way, somewhere between £15 and £30!

[hayfield]

I have no issue with £30 a point. Why? What is the cost of a point kit or parts? What is the cost of my time? When I take that into account and look at the prototype I think it balances out well.

 

Secondly, it is made in the UK. Look at other threads bemoaning late delivery/ lack of control from Chinese factories and wishing for UK production. Well, here is the answer and we may need to pay for it.

 

Roy

 

 

Roy

 

What you have said about price is quite reasonable and well thought through, and I guess will be echoed by others

 

However only just over a year ago the number of negative replies about those wanting a 4 mm scale track system for 00 gauge dwarf those in favour, cost being the main complaint even if it was the same price as the H0 scale stuff.  Why spend unnecessarily on new track, even at the same price was the cry

 

Where have all the detractors gone ? 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 

Where have all the detractors gone ? 

 

They'll be back with the warmer weather

[BlackRat]

I've only just seen Paul's link with the picture of the large radius point......

 

I think I have just wet myself........the most exciting thing I've seen today......and I've seen a fair bit on the net today!

 

Hats off to Peco, and pants off here!

 

I can't wait.

[bertiedog]

The problem with removing the hinge is that it would be different to the rest of the range in operation, which is, where set, it remains set with the assistance of the spring, and the action with the hinge is light. If the solid blade is needed then a latch of some sort, more powerful than just the spring would be needed to be added to the design. The light action suits the solenoid type point motors, and Peco have always kept compatibility with older products foremost over the years.

 

The example at Warley was reported by visitors as being described by the Peco reps as a dummy prototype, made from parts,(presumably Peco's own) as a sample to display the concept, rather than be exactly what will be made.

 

By all means contact Peco and find out, but I suspect the planning was long term and they are committed one way or another now, with Easter release mentioned at the Show. (reported by others).

 

By a lost leader, it does not mean you sell at a loss, it merely means after the investment in the development you are less likely than usual to get a fast return on the product. You can reflect the full development costs in a higher price, but by accepting longer term returns it means you can set a price where you know it will sell, and sell they will at the announced level. Peco are nothing if not experts in selling model railways.

 

The other issue that might come up is running back through a set point, at the moment most locos and will flip the blades on a return loop, something the hinge allows but solid would not.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do not like the hinge or the folded blade, but getting rid of it may be very difficult. They could of course just use a new design of hinge, but the options seem limited.

 

The track is extremely good so far, it is heading to be the flagship track for 00 for the general modeller in the UK, and looks like it will sell even in the States from comments on US sites.

[Merfyn Jones]

Having not yet had the chance to examine a sample, can somebody who has please coment on which wheels are happy to run on this track in comparison with the likes of SMP and C&L.

[martin_wynne]

The problem with removing the hinge is that it would be different to the rest of the range in operation, which is, where set, it remains set with the assistance of the spring, and the action with the hinge is light.

 

The issue of solid machined blade v. hollow stamping is separate from the issue of loose-heel (pivoted) or flexible switches. In the latter case both types are prototypical for different prototypes and periods.

 

I suspect a great deal can be learned about the design (and the price) by looking at Peco's existing bullhead track for 0 gauge.

 

The 0 gauge turnout I have in front of me now has solid blades machined from solid rail, but is loose-heel and lightly sprung. The heel pivots neatly in a slightly loose rail joiner, in the same way as the prototype using loose fishplates.

 

It is about 20 years old, so I don't know if current 0 gauge production is the same.

 

All in all, Peco's bullhead track for 0 gauge is a very good representation of UK bullhead track, and demonstrates that they do know about track, and always have done. Correctly calling them turnouts and not points shows that.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Having not yet had the chance to examine a sample, can somebody who has please coment on which wheels are happy to run on this track in comparison with the likes of SMP and C&L.

 

 

I guess much the same as their own code 75 fb & SMP  will allow a little coarser wheels than C&L owing to the shape of the inside part of the chairs on C&L

[Merfyn Jones]

I guess much the same as their own code 75 fb & SMP  will allow a little coarser wheels than C&L owing to the shape of the inside part of the chairs on C&L

 

Thank you, just what I wanted to hear before I go out and buy some to try.

[coachmann]

Thank you, just what I wanted to hear before I go out and buy some to try.

Where around here van you go out and buy some to try Merf? Not for me 'o course, but a pal is interested.

[bertiedog]

All the wheels I could find ran on it, from early Farish, but not Tri-ang, and the only problems are LIma and other continental makers wheels, which would not like the points at all when they come.

 

The Lima bump the chairs, but mainly as they are Pizza cutters, no root radius, whereas Hornby early run fine on the track as the root of the flange keeps the flange off the chairs.

 

The track is more universal than C&L, where more makes hit the top of the chairs.

All modern stuff goes along the track, RP-25 spec, Bachmann, Hornby, Oxford, ( who have a bigger flange by a small margin), DJ Models and Heljan, all miss the chairs completely. You may find strange exceptions where the flange is like a Pizza cutter, but smaller than Lima where they just touch.

 

All comment on the track, not the points, which are bound not to be as totally universal as Streamline. Time to change the wheels if there are exceptions.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Where around here van you go out and buy some to try Merf? Not for me 'o course, but a pal is interested.

Most Peco stockists seem to be taking new stock so it should be everywhere (if it is ordered).

 

Stephen.

[Merfyn Jones]

Where around here van you go out and buy some to try Merf? Not for me 'o course, but a pal is interested.

 

None at Photoworld or Hippo. Will try Rhuddlan when they are open.

[Merfyn Jones]

All the wheels I could find ran on it, from early Farish, but not Tri-ang, and the only problems are LIma and other continental makers wheels, which would not like the points at all when they come.

 

The Lima bump the chairs, but mainly as they are Pizza cutters, no root radius, whereas Hornby early run fine on the track as the root of the flange keeps the flange off the chairs.

 

The track is more universal than C&L, where more makes hit the top of the chairs.

All modern stuff goes along the track, RP-25 spec, Bachmann, Hornby, Oxford, ( who have a bigger flange by a small margin), DJ Models and Heljan, all miss the chairs completely. You may find strange exceptions where the flange is like a Pizza cutter, but smaller than Lima where they just touch.

 

All comment on the track, not the points, which are bound not to be as totally universal as Streamline. Time to change the wheels if there are exceptions.

 

Stephen.

 

Thank you for the info.  I am thinking for a club layout where people want to run all sorts of antiques.

[Adams442T]

Might l suggest that people go back and read post # 2147 on page 86, where PMP actually spoke to the staff manning the Peco stand, including senior staff members, and received replies indicating that the new bullhead turnouts would be as shown, solid blades, and all!

 

As Martin Wynne also said above, post #2170, the O gauge points, which in my experience work fine, also have solid blades.

 

Oh, and it's 'loss leader',   A loss leader is a pricing strategy where a product is sold at a price below its market cost to stimulate other sales of more profitable goods or services.

 

It's not a 'Lost Leader' unless you're referring to Politicians!!

Edited January 13, 2017 by Adams442T