Castle Aching

[Donw]

For us southerners the North starts around Manchester/ Sheffield  when the Midlands ends, well apart from those who think it is anything beyond Birmingham or even Oxford

One bit I had never heard mentioned which I found very beautiful was a bus ride from Selkirk to Carlisle. Perhaps the fact we got a good view from the top of the bus helped.

 

Don

[Edwardian]

You have to tread carefully here - historically, this section of the River Lune was the boundary between Yorkshire and Westmorland up to the start of the Lune Gorge, where the county boundary turned east across the fells. For many years this has all been Cumbria but the old county boundary was until recently the limit of the Yorkshire Dales National Park.

 

It's an area of Norse settlement; Danes from north of the old East Riding will appreciate the bleakness of the old North Eastern (Stockton & Darlington) line over Stainmoor with its twin forks to Tebay and Penrith.

 

Usual disclaimer: I have no connection with any of these northern counties than as a satisfied customer. 

 

Well, traditionally the border between Yorkshire and County Durham was the Tees, e.g. the branch line from Barnard Castle (County Durham) to Middleton in Teesdale (County Durham), where the station was on the south bank (Yorkshire). 

 

So I am probably currently in Former-Yorkshire!

 

Anyroad up, I'm half Yorkshire by blood, which, I feel, gives me a certain licence!

 

Traditionally the North was regarded as anything North of the Trent.  Of course, that may well have been a London perspective, and folk down south have often proved resistant to the idea that, in addition to the North and the South, there is something call the Midlands!  Though obviously DonW is a shining example in recognising the Midlands.  I grew up in the East Midlands, and it is a distinct and beautiful region in its own right.

 

That said, if the choice were binary, I'd say that Leicester feels like more of a southern city and Nottingham more of a northern one, so there may be something in that 'North of the Trent' idea, and it could well have some approximation to the borders of Danegeld!

Edited May 15, 2017 by Edwardian

[BG John]

For us southerners the North starts around Manchester/ Sheffield  when the Midlands ends, well apart from those who think it is anything beyond Birmingham or even Oxford

I always thought it started at Watford. I had and Aunt and Uncle in Rickmansworth, and that was as far north as I ever got until long after I could travel on my own!

[nick_bastable]

from deepest Kent the North starts at the Medway 

 

Nick

[mullie]

From where I live anything is north, in fact you drive around two miles just to get to England!

[BlueLightning]

from deepest Kent the North starts at the Medway 

 

Nick

 

I was about to comment something very similar!! :jester:

 

Gary

[phil_sutters]

When, in 1968, I was a young trainee social worker, newly arrived in London from Somerset, I and one David Williams, from - you have probably guessed south Wales already -  ran a discussion group in a day centre for elderly* people in south London. As part of our activities we took them on a short Thames river trip. We found ourselves telling some of the group members, who had lived in south London all their lives, what the buildings and locations were along the river. Quite a few had never crossed the Thames. People's abilities and inclinations to travel seem to vary enormously and equally there are huge differences in people's perceptions of other parts of the country and indeed the world, sometimes despite getting on planes and jetting off on holidays abroad.

 

*Incidentally, why is the term 'older people' preferred to 'elderly people'? Logically elderly indicates that one is getting towards being old, whereas if one is older that implies one has moved on from being old, to being older, but isn't as yet among the oldest. I suspect it was the p.c. brigade, disliking the term 'the elderly'.

[Nearholmer]

Scenic splendours aside, I've never quite been able to understand why early sapiens, en route out of Africa, carried on much further north than, say, the Dordogne. A quick foray further during the summer might have been OK, but permanent settlement??

 

I guess the climate must have been different way back.

 

K

Edited May 15, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Donw]

Edwardian says I am a shining example recognising the Midlands. However we had family living in Rushden and my maternal grandparents moved to Irchester. Born a cockney in London I grew up mostly in Reading. Later when married we became somewhat nomadic Living firstly in Birmingham then Ironbridge, Wenlock Edge, Broseley, Bayston Hill, Weston Super Mare, Coleford FOD, Brixham, Minehead, Isle of Wight, Minehead and currently slightly east of Minehead. So the Midlands is quite well known to me. 

My sister is interested in Family trees and recently discovered that my maternal grandfather's grandparents came over from nr Cork in Ireland to London, she had been over there looking at church records and grave stones.

Two years ago we visited Yorkshire and at Hawes spotted  this

 

 

Which must be somewhere near the railways you have been talking about. Mind you you would take a long time to get to Garsdale now on this train.

 

Don

 

 

[St Enodoc]

Keep up the educational stuff!

 

I might have studied at Lancaster for a year, but my knowledge of this mysterious "north" is summarised below.

 

Kevin

Having grown up in London, where a common road sign was "A1 Hatfield and the North", after moving to Edinburgh it tickled me to see signs such as "M6 Penrith and the South".

When, in 1968, I was a young trainee social worker, newly arrived in London from Somerset, I and one David Williams, from - you have probably guessed south Wales already -  ran a discussion group in a day centre for elderly* people in south London. As part of our activities we took them on a short Thames river trip. We found ourselves telling some of the group members, who had lived in south London all their lives, what the buildings and locations were along the river. Quite a few had never crossed the Thames. People's abilities and inclinations to travel seem to vary enormously and equally there are huge differences in people's perceptions of other parts of the country and indeed the world, sometimes despite getting on planes and jetting off on holidays abroad.

 

*Incidentally, why is the term 'older people' preferred to 'elderly people'? Logically elderly indicates that one is getting towards being old, whereas if one is older that implies one has moved on from being old, to being older, but isn't as yet among the oldest. I suspect it was the p.c. brigade, disliking the term 'the elderly'.

What's wrong with old, very old and bl**dy old?

[Edwardian]

When, in 1968, I was a young trainee social worker, newly arrived in London from Somerset, I and one David Williams, from - you have probably guessed south Wales already -  ran a discussion group in a day centre for elderly* people in south London. As part of our activities we took them on a short Thames river trip. We found ourselves telling some of the group members, who had lived in south London all their lives, what the buildings and locations were along the river. Quite a few had never crossed the Thames. People's abilities and inclinations to travel seem to vary enormously and equally there are huge differences in people's perceptions of other parts of the country and indeed the world, sometimes despite getting on planes and jetting off on holidays abroad.

 

*Incidentally, why is the term 'older people' preferred to 'elderly people'? Logically elderly indicates that one is getting towards being old, whereas if one is older that implies one has moved on from being old, to being older, but isn't as yet among the oldest. I suspect it was the p.c. brigade, disliking the term 'the elderly'.

 

The problem is with modern airline travel is that it gives no sense of the journey, the distance travelled and the relative positions of the places of departure and arrival.  You climb inside a metal box in a controlled environment with a limited view for most if the time of anything but sky and then exit somewhere completely alien from the place you left.  For all you have a sense of the journey there, you may as well have travelled via TARDIS.

 

Rail travel generally allows you to observe the changing scene between A and B and gain a sense of the geography travelled.

 

 

Edwardian says I am a shining example recognising the Midlands. However we had family living in Rushden and my maternal grandparents moved to Irchester. Born a cockney in London I grew up mostly in Reading. Later when married we became somewhat nomadic Living firstly in Birmingham then Ironbridge, Wenlock Edge, Broseley, Bayston Hill, Weston Super Mare, Coleford FOD, Brixham, Minehead, Isle of Wight, Minehead and currently slightly east of Minehead. So the Midlands is quite well known to me. 

My sister is interested in Family trees and recently discovered that my maternal grandfather's grandparents came over from nr Cork in Ireland to London, she had been over there looking at church records and grave stones.

Two years ago we visited Yorkshire and at Hawes spotted  this

 

HawesSta.jpg

 

Which must be somewhere near the railways you have been talking about. Mind you you would take a long time to get to Garsdale now on this train.

 

Don

 

Another station on my Pre-Grouping Layout Wish-list: A Midland station that, for all the world looks as if it's on the S&C but in the main served by green locomotives! 

[Northroader]

 

Another station on my Pre-Grouping Layout Wish-list: A Midland station that, for all the world looks as if it's on the S&C but in the main served by green locomotives!

 

What's stopping you? Until 1881 MR locos were green, not red, (Kirtley and early Johnson) and the S&C opened 1876.

[Edwardian]

What's stopping you? Until 1881 MR locos were green, not red, (Kirtley and early Johnson) and the S&C opened 1876.

 

Different shade of green, though! 

 

I did think of modelling Marple.  A further shade of green, of course, but it was a mainline until around the turn of the century; 1902 rings a faint bell.

 

Very attractive site, wedged in a cutting with an interesting footbridge array.  Aside from the ability to run 2 companies' trains, MR and GC, Marple seems to have been the place for stopping and re-marshalling trains, so operation would be very intensive, beyond that of most passing stations.

 

The whole way the canal weaves in and out of the scene via aqueduct and tunnels would make a splendid set piece.  Then again, the Sheffield & Midland route was replete with dramatic scenic features, just asking to be modelled, for instance the vicinity of New Mills.

 

There is much worth modelling arising from the Midland Railway's attempts to gain access to the north, more than just the culminating triumph of the S&C.

[Northroader]

Different shade of green, though! .

What's the "right shade" of green, then? MR started off Brunswick and ended up Emerald. My mate Mr. Stroudley "improved" on that, then there's Russian green and Saxon green. If you were of Irish descent you'd be able to detect fifty different shades, so they say.

[Edwardian]

What's the "right shade" of green, then? MR started off Brunswick and ended up Emerald. My mate Mr. Stroudley "improved" on that, then there's Russian green and Saxon green. If you were of Irish descent you'd be able to detect fifty different shades, so they say.

 

There are no right or wrong shades of green, so far as the prototype was concerned.  Only different shades.  More the merrier, so far as I am concerned, though my particular reference was to Darlington Green at a S&C-style station, assuming the picture concerned (DonW's Post 3609) to have been of Hawes.

 

Thus, Hawes is on the list as a "[Midland] cake and [North Eastern] eat it" location.

 

Logically, it is not possible that there is only one right shade of green as the Great Western had more than one.  QED.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Edwardian

[Donw]

That photo certainly was Hawes and the Station building is now the Hawes National  Park Centre http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/visit-the-dales/essential-information/tourist-information/hawes-national-park-centre Not overwelming for the rail enthusiast. We we there for the walking. 

 

 

 

Don

 

[phil_sutters]

I did think of modelling Marple. 

I thought that the gentlemen in #3439 were more your period.

 

By the way, I recently bought the 1981 Model Railway Constructor annual. It has an 18 page article on  GWR Dean Period Coaches (History and notes on varying types) by John Lewis. I know that the GWR is at the wrong point of the compass for you, but the huge range of diagrams, including converted BG ones, convertible gauge ones and standard gauge types, is fascinating. Having modelled railways 50 years ago, these old magazines and annuals are very nostalgic.

[Edwardian]

 

 

By the way, I recently bought the 1981 Model Railway Constructor annual. It has an 18 page article on  GWR Dean Period Coaches (History and notes on varying types) by John Lewis. I know that the GWR is at the wrong point of the compass for you, but the huge range of diagrams, including converted BG ones, convertible gauge ones and standard gauge types, is fascinating. Having modelled railways 50 years ago, these old magazines and annuals are very nostalgic.

 

The Great Western, my first and most enduring love ... Must look out for that book.

 

The Constructor was a great magazine.

 

I thought that the gentlemen in #3439 were more your period.

 

 

 

Not sure I can remember that far back ....

 

Bowls?

[phil_sutters]

The Great Western, my first and most enduring love ... Must look out for that book.

 

The Constructor was a great magazine.

 

 

Not sure I can remember that far back ....

 

Bowls?

Do I detect feigned ignorance? Holmes and Watson surely would not approve of you encouraging Miss Marple to busy-body her way into their investigations.

Since you mention bowls, Lewes Castle has one of the world's oldest bowling greens within its precincts.

[Edwardian]

Do I detect feigned ignorance? Holmes and Watson surely would not approve of you encouraging Miss Marple to busy-body her way into their investigations.

Since you mention bowls, Lewes Castle has one of the world's oldest bowling greens within its precincts.

 

Aha.  Very good.  No, not feigned ignorance, merely genuine stupidity on my part. 

 

You are correct.  Wrong period for Miss M.  Mr Holmes should still have been around, and, of course, the innocent Father Brown.

 

I suspect that Mr Hannay was still mining in S Africa, so it is to be hoped that Agents of a Foreign Power don't start anything, at or least that Davies and Carruthers have sufficiently spiked their plans.  Remember, the launch of our first Dreadnought is still nearly a year away!

[DonB]

There are no right or wrong shades of green, so far as the prototype was concerned.  Only different shades.  More the merrier, so far as I am concerned, though my particular reference was to Darlington Green at a S&C-style station, assuming the picture concerned (DonW's Post 3609) to have been of Hawes.

 

Thus, Hawes is on the list as a "[Midland] cake and [North Eastern] eat it" location.

 

Logically, it is not possible that there is only one right shade of green as the Great Western had more than one.  QED.

 

 

From the depths of profound ignorance of railway practice on Yorkshire's rail systems, (the closest I have been to that fine County's railways was walking part of the track bed of the L&Y as part of a WEA course in the late 1970's ).....may I ask.... 

1) is this train running "Wrong  Rail"? or as a push-pull service? 

2) has the image been reversed? (compare with picture in post 3609 )

[Shadow]

I think that the photo in #3609 has been taken from the bridge in the background of your one. So therefore Mr Watson, it's either wrong track (Single line working, second platform not in use) or push-pull.

Would it be tender first for push-pull, probably not, so going for bi-directional platform. Also, two lamps on front (?) of engine. Only one if it's the back I think!!!

Well that's my deduction anyway...

[ChrisN]

I assume you know about this website?

[Edwardian]

I assume you know about this website?

 

Ah yes, but had not visited for a goodly long while, and I note a section on bogie coaches, including clerestories, has appeared.

 

It shall now be my constant study!

 

Thanks, Chris

[Caley Jim]

 

1) is this train running "Wrong  Rail"? or as a push-pull service? 

2) has the image been reversed? (compare with picture in post 3609 )

As Shadow points out, there are lamps at the front of the loco (local passenger train).  Saving and enlarging the photo, it's just possible to make out 'No' to the left of the drawhook on the buffer beam, so the photo has not been reversed.  Looking at a 6" map on the NLS website, the branch was single track, so it looks like it was the practice, when trains were not passing, to use the platform with the station building on it.

 

My 2d worth.

 

Jim