Castle Aching

[Caley Jim]

Reading a book on the Highland Railways last night,  30 assorted 6 wheel carriages, wagons and horse boxes from Perth to Inverness, two locos on the front, one giving a push up the backside. For a while this was not an unusual event!!..

On 7th August 1888 the 7:00am Perth-Inverness had 37 vehicles from 9 railway companies comprising 4 LB&SCR; 8 LNWR; 1 NER; 5 MR; 4 NBR; 1 ECJS; 1 GNR; 2 WCJS; 11 HR; including 12 horse boxes, 2 carriage trucks, 6 luggage vans, 1 ECJS sleeping car, 1 HR PO van & a brake van.   It had 2 locomotives at the front, with one attached in the rear at Blair Athol It left Perth 20 mins late and left Kingussie 72 mins late.

 

Jim

[Martin S-C]

Isn't that the prototype equivalent of a modeller saying "let's add on every wagon we have and see what it can pull?"

[Edwardian]

On 7th August 1888 the 7:00am Perth-Inverness had 37 vehicles from 9 railway companies comprising 4 LB&SCR; 8 LNWR; 1 NER; 5 MR; 4 NBR; 1 ECJS; 1 GNR; 2 WCJS; 11 HR; including 12 horse boxes, 2 carriage trucks, 6 luggage vans, 1 ECJS sleeping car, 1 HR PO van & a brake van.   It had 2 locomotives at the front, with one attached in the rear at Blair Athol It left Perth 20 mins late and left Kingussie 72 mins late.

 

Jim

 

The material fact, as we lawyers are wont to say, is, presumably,that it is headed for the Highlands in early August  

 

You missed off the West Norfolk Railway family saloon.

[Regularity]

Some people, the Tory ultras like Rees-Mogg etc, voted for Brexit because they see it as a way to enrich themselves at others' expense, which is a perfectly rational reason if not a very nice one, but there is much anecdotal evidence that points to the vast majority of Leave voters being irrationally sentimental for a past that can not, and should not, be recreated which was indelibly racist, misogynistic, homophobic and no less corrupt than nowadays. To that extent at least they too are racists. Multiple attacks on people perceived as 'foreigners' since June 2016 show that they are active racists too. They are in effect the English equivalent of Trump supporters in the US and as such 'Losers' even when they win.

 

Now, back to the levity...

There is some evidence that some of the Brexiters are racist.

But also some of the remainers.

This also applies to some of those who didn’t vote.

 

To elide a nostalgic, rose-tainted view of a past which had many unpleasant sides to it with racism is a not inconsiderable step, and equating Brexit with supporting Trump is to try to explain the complex with the incomprehensible.

[Annie]

After Google searching for photos of Midland Railway open wagons with the appropriate keywords I haven't ended up with any, but I did find some very nice GER, MS&LR and GNR ones.  Mr Google fix your search engine pleeeease!

 

Edit:  Panic over, - a nice side on photo of a DY2489 open has been found.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by Annie

[Martin S-C]

While I enjoy every which way this wonderful threads develops I do think that politics should be left out. Lets talk instead about something radical, like .... trains. Are train discussions allowed here? I think I mentioned them once but got away with it.

[Guy Rixon]

To elide a nostalgic, rose-tainted view of a past which had many unpleasant sides to it with racism is a not inconsiderable step, and equating Brexit with supporting Trump is to try to explain the complex with the incomprehensible.

 

To wish for a return to a society that was openly and endemically racist is to support racism; not that current, endemic crypto-racism is much better. To support Brexit is not to support Trump, but the supporters of both seem to display the same tribalist world-view.

[wagonman]

There is some evidence that some of the Brexiters are racist.

But also some of the remainers.

This also applies to some of those who didn’t vote.

 

To elide a nostalgic, rose-tainted view of a past which had many unpleasant sides to it with racism is a not inconsiderable step, and equating Brexit with supporting Trump is to try to explain the complex with the incomprehensible.

 

 

 

Mmmm. I like the idea of "rose-tainted" nostalgia...   :-)

 

 

I make the connection with Trumpism because the two things are driven by much the same forces of foot-loose globalised capital which have destroyed the livelihoods of whole communities, exacerbated by a decade of austerity, which has given rise to a nativist/xenophobic response that will not address their (very real) grievances. Obviously this is all grossly over-simplified but I refuse to monopolise the next hundred pages of this thread with a more detailed response. It will have to do.

[wagonman]

While I enjoy every which way this wonderful threads develops I do think that politics should be left out. Lets talk instead about something radical, like .... trains. Are train discussions allowed here? I think I mentioned them once but got away with it.

 

As everything is at some level 'political', not talking about it is a political choice... But, yeah, trains. I remember them from some pages back...

[Annie]

People tend to be alive for somewhere between 60 and 80 years baring terrible accidents and yet we seem to want to waste that short amount of time by snapping and snarling at each other and name calling and hating anybody who looks different or speaks different or dresses different.  Daft I call it.  Politics, - if I may quote an underground comic I read back in my 20's, - is poopadoddle so I ignore it because it is yet another waste of those precious 60-80 years which is all we have.   I cannot begin to understand anyone who has racist views, - even though I still think anyone who models BR's blue era is somehow mentally deficient, - and yet some people seem to think that beating up a person just because they're different is fine.

 

I used to be a social worker, but I've long since hung up my supergirl tee shirt and I have my doubts that all the thousands of hours I spent trying to right wrongs and injustices on  behalf of my clients actually did any good towards the betterment of the human race.  So now I play trains and I don't care.  I look out my window in the morning (if I'm awake) and if I don't see mushroom clouds or alien spaceships then I know that it's going to be a good day.

 

Personally what I think some people need is a good dose of a chronic illness with a hint of imminent mortality on the horizon to bring them to their senses and realise just how little time they have.

[Edwardian]

There is some evidence that some of the Brexiters are racist.

But also some of the remainers.

This also applies to some of those who didn’t vote.

 

To elide a nostalgic, rose-tainted view of a past which had many unpleasant sides to it with racism is a not inconsiderable step, and equating Brexit with supporting Trump is to try to explain the complex with the incomprehensible.

 

No one should want to live in the past. No one, perhaps, should even want to live in the age of their childhood; the reason Life on Mars worked as a TV programme is because it played on how alien to us are the mores of the 1970s.  Thus, my own past is very much already Another Country.

 

The further back you go, the harder it becomes to reconcile yourself to the mainstream attitudes and conditions of life of the day.  There is, perhaps, a reason why my layout is set in a place that never existed.

 

As we know, political discussions are against forum rules, and BREXIT is a toxically divisive subject.  That said, I suspect most of you will have inferred my views.  Since 24 June 2016, I have found that my strength of feeling has not in the slightest abated, so, sometimes this is bound to show through.  But that is surely the point, as a nation we remain as divided on the issue as we were before the vote.  In that sense, the referendum decided nothing; it merely guaranteed a generational battle for the soul of this nation.  That, very regrettable outcome is precisely why we should not discuss it here; debating from irreconcilable view points can only divide us.

 

If anyone is interested in who voted what and why, the Ashcroft poll makes an absolutely fascinating study: https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/  I commend the section near the end on social attitudes.  That is all I plan to say on the subject! 

[Caley Jim]

The material fact, as we lawyers are wont to say, is, presumably,that it is headed for the Highlands in early August  

Correct!  The object, of course, being Grouse, for the shooting of.   Along, no doubt, with the consumption of liberal quantities of usquebaugh!  (They didn't have Famous Grouse in 1888.)

 

You missed off the West Norfolk Railway family saloon.

But, remember, this was 1888.  Did the WNR have a family saloon then?

 

Jim  (who voted to leave to free us from having rules and regulations made by un-elected apparatchiks.  I have no problem with anyone, no matter what their ethnicity, faith, gender or sexuality.  We are all created equal.)

[Edwardian]

Correct!  The object, of course, being Grouse, for the shooting of.   Along, no doubt, with the consumption of liberal quantities of usquebaugh!  (They didn't have Famous Grouse in 1888.)

 

But, remember, this was 1888.  Did the WNR have a family saloon then?

 

 

 

I suspect so, and no doubt still going in 1905.

[Edwardian]

I still think anyone who models BR's blue era is somehow mentally deficient,

 

No one, perhaps, should even want to live in the age of their childhood

 

Quite!

[RedGemAlchemist]

Agreed. Even the 2000s seem alien to me now, let alone my childhood in the 90s!

[Regularity]

To wish for a return to a society that was openly and endemically racist is to support racism;

 

When people get wistful about the past, they only look at the good bits.

As Cyril Freezer once write, nostalgia is based on a polite agreement to overlook the faults of the past.

 

Surely you agree with this, otherwise by modelling the past, you are also recreating scenes which existed within an openly and endemically racist society, which by extension of your own argument is supporting racism? Not being provocative or offensive, just pointing out the logical conclusion of your blanket statement, via reducio ad absurdum.

 

Also, there are almost certainly people on this forum who voted to leave the EU for reasons which have nothing to do with racism, which is what was being inferred in Wagonman’s post, and I for one think that is going too far.

 

What distressed me about the campaigns was that we had a poor argument based on feeling and bombastic, unsubstantiated rhetoric from one side, whilst the other side didn’t even turn up for the debate and wondered why they lost. Not a good argument for democracy!

not that current, endemic crypto-racism is much better.

Well, not that I would wish to return to such retrograde times, at least they were open and honest about it.

Personally, I am more concerned now with the very real threat to free speech imposed by a desire to box in and dismiss unpopular views by describing them as racist/sexist/homophobia/etc, and by the the use of phrases such as “fake news” to dismiss anything calling for analysis based on factual evidence. (He said, expressing his distaste for the extreme left and extreme right respectively.)

[RedGemAlchemist]

When people get wistful about the past, they only look at the good bits.

As Cyril Freezer once write, nostalgia is based on a polite agreement to overlook the faults of the past.

 

Surely you agree with this, otherwise by modelling the past, you are also recreating scenes which existed within an openly and endemically racist society, which by extension of your own argument is supporting racism? Not being provocative or offensive, just pointing out the logical conclusion of your blanket statement, via reducio ad absurdum.

 

Also, there are almost certainly people on this forum who voted to leave the EU for reasons which have nothing to do with racism, which is what was being inferred in Wagonman’s post, and I for one think that is going too far.

 

What distressed me about the campaigns was that we had a poor argument based on feeling and bombastic, unsubstantiated rhetoric from one side, whilst the other side didn’t even turn up for the debate and wondered why they lost. Not a good argument for democracy!

Well, not that I would wish to return to such retrograde times, at least they were open and honest about it.

Personally, I am more concerned now with the very real threat to free speech imposed by a desire to box in and dismiss unpopular views by describing them as racist/sexist/homophobia/etc, and by the the use of phrases such as “fake news” to dismiss anything calling for analysis based on factual evidence. (He said, expressing his distaste for the extreme left and extreme right respectively.)

Indeed. To truly know the past is to accept it warts and all IMHO. No period of time is perfect. Even today is not perfect ; these social issues are still problems, not to mention the slow return of fascism. We as a society cannot stop these things totally as they are part of the human condition. Humanity has always taken one step forwards and two steps back, that's just the way of things.

I actually voted to leave, not for reasons of racism but for a slightly more naive reason in retrospect. I was not expecting the leave vote to succeed, I just thought of enough people voted to leave it might shock the system into positive change. This was a stupid thought I know but I don't really understand politics very well. Though I do think the EU is an experiment just waiting to fail, there is still some potential for something good to come from it.

Anyway, shall we talk about a more positive subject? This is getting kind of depressing.

Edited October 9, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Regularity]

Jim  (who voted to leave to free us from having rules and regulations made by un-elected apparatchiks.  I have no problem with anyone, no matter what their ethnicity, faith, gender or sexuality.  We are all created equal.)

I know a lot of people who voted that way, for that reason.

I also know some (proportionally enough to swing the vote the other way) who voted to leave to register a protest, but thinking that we wouldn’t actually be leaving!

 

The problem with that is down to the structure of the EU, where legislation is broadly initiated by the Council of Ministers, created by the appointed “apparatchiks” in the European Commission, and reviewed but not approved by the European Parliament.

Some of this is good: employment and health and safety legislation has largely been harmonised, such that in the UK we gave not needed to do any of this for decades (bringing it back in-house will be costly) and free trade - which is what the U.K. supposedly champions - is facilitated by regulations, as everyone works to the same requirements.

 

With the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, the fundamental structure of what was once a “common market” has changed but in the U.K. and elsewhere this has not always been put to a popular vote. But that was up to our parliament to decide: Westminster chose to ratify these treaties on behalf of the people. In some other countries they felt that a constitutional change of such magnitude required a mandate from the masses. I side with that view, and in order for ratification, the case would have to be made by the government. Instead, Parliament effectively exercised the ‘Crown Perogative’ and Made the decision for us.

 

What we have seen is a concentration of power into a small committee of elected national leaders (the Council of Ministers), without a commensurate increase in the powers of the European Parliament and the acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the European people, not their governments. At the moment it is somewhat akin to your MP being selected from your local council, not via a direct election.

 

I agree that that the whole situation had become cumbersome and increasingly undemocratic below the surface.

I also think that extreme right-wing parties are increasingly popular in many European countries and that racism is much stronger in some if not most member states. We were a good counterbalance to that, but this is one area where I am glad to be distanced from Europe!

I think that most EU law comes from a Roman law mindset, and has not landed well in a common law country. A prime example is the Working Time Directive, which in most of Europe is seen for what it is, a step towards reducing working hours and the exploitation of the workforce , but over here was misinterpreted as health and safety legislation.

 

Germany has been the powerhouse behind greater and greater integration (notably assisted by the French), with the Euro forced through to pay for reunification (which is naughty of them as the division was a consequence of WWII and therefore for them to pay for) and it may have taken them a century, but they have realised that the domination of Europe is more effectively and enduringly achieved via the economy than warfare. The Euro is fundamentally a good idea, removing the effects of currency speculation and extending a fiscal shield from richer nations to poorer, but has been rushed through in a very cack-handed manner with manipulation of the ERM to benefit the German economy and kid everyone else involved that they were in a better economic position than they were. (The Mark was devalued, making German products cheaper, thereby increasing exports within the ERM area from Germany. This made people in other member states feel that they were achieving real material growth, whilst simultaneously keeping employment levels high in Germany. Frankly, I admire their cheek and can’t blame them for putting their own people first, but what was everyone else thinking?)

 

The solution to this is to slow things down, and to reform the structures. The UK was the only country with a big enough economy to do this, which is why they are happy for us to go. Structural reform would eventually lead to the abolition of the Council of Ministers, replaced by a senate, and the diminution of national leaders to the level of State Governor. You can see why first Ministers of member states don’t want that to happen! (Especially here, where the PM has enormous powers to make decisions on our behalf - it’s the Crown perogative again.)

Sadly, our departure will be bad for them, and it will have negative impact on the UK as a consequence.

 

That’s a long-winded way of saying that I think leaving is akin to throwing out the baby with the bath water, but fundamentally Cameron called this referendum for internal party politi reasons, framed the question as he did for the same reason, did little to support his point of view as he didn’t see why he needed to make the case, and then ran away. What a disaster.

 

I wish we had stayed in, to try to make it more democratic from within, to create a genuine unified trading group rather than a “Superstate”. We have typically been one of the few countries not to enact legislation such as the 3 month rule for intra-EU migration, whereby you can only get benefits for up to 3 months if staying in a different member state. The U.K. has been a beacon of decency within the EU, and decent enough not to make the point vehemently enough to make the others look bad.

 

Sadly, we weren’t given the option to have a third choice (reform, and if we can’t, renegotiate) and we were not given genuine facts and explanations. To reduce such a complex question down to a simple stay/go decision with no real debate was, us, and always will be a travesty as most voters on both sides made their choice based not on informed opinion, but on gut feeling influenced by cant, hyperbole, obfuscation and downright lies from the two campaigns.

[Regularity]

Having got that off my chest, let’s move back to the frivolous world of Castle Aching.

[Martin S-C]

Regularity, the thread owner asked that the discussion cease some way up the page. I also asked people to stop. Why did you post? I think just deleting that would be the best course of action. I am not interested in reading that wall of text - I am not interested in anyone's politics here; yours or anyone else's. And as Edwardian reminded you, the topic is BANNED on RMWeb,so please, just delete it, hm?

[Edwardian]

Agreed. Even the 2000s seem alien to me now, let alone my childhood in the 90s!

 

I don't remember the 1990s.  I think I may have been drunk at the time. 

[TheQ]

A

 

Agreed. Even the 2000s seem alien to me now, let alone my childhood in the 90s!

Aliens in 2000? I suppose with Dr Who around he / she could turn up anytime..

[Regularity]

Regularity, the thread owner asked that the discussion cease some way up the page. I also asked people to stop. Why did you post? I think just deleting that would be the best course of action. I am not interested in reading that wall of text - I am not interested in anyone's politics here; yours or anyone else's. And as Edwardian reminded you, the topic is BANNED on RMWeb,so please, just delete it, hm?

Well, that’s me told.

[Edwardian]

Peace, Man!

[drmditch]

I don't remember the 1990s.  I think I may have been drunk at the time. 

 

Wasn't that the 1970's?