Castle Aching

[Hroth]

4 minutes ago, brack said:

Probably not a diesel engine as we know it, but it would perhaps have run on diesel? 1903. Unless you have military involvement in CA's alternate geography I'm not sure how youd get away with one..

 

Possibly a horizontally mounted Bolinder semi-diesel?

 

You see (and hear...) Bolinders in Traditional Narrowboats.  The engine is kickstarted and has an erratic pulse.  In narrowboats they also have a huge brass blowlamp to bring the cylinder head to operating temperature before starting....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H39drBmwxL8

 

This one uses a retro-fitted propane blowtorch and the amount of "oiling round" would be familiar to a steam engineer!

[Nearholmer]

Brack

 

No, not that one, because that one had a hot-bulb engine. I've seen a works drawing showing the bulb, and (from memory, not notes/sketches) it was at the side of the combustion-space between the two opposed pistons.

 

It was a truly amazing locomotive nevertheless.

 

Incidentally, I've always wondered why the military in GB decided to put itself at the forefront of i.c. rail traction for a few years either side of 1900, and I wonder whether what they were really interested in was the engines, for wider purposes, and that rail happened to provide a good test-bed on dry land.

 

Kevin

[Nearholmer]

Hroth

 

"Semi-Diesel" is, IMO, a nonsense-term, foisted upon us, I think, by the American refrigeration firm De La Vergne, who held rights to produce Akroyd-Stuart engines, and c1917 wanted their products to sound better, so coined the term (they did start building Diesels in 1926, after a change of ownership caused by WW1). Pre-internet, before US terminology crept across the pond, I don't think the term was used in GB/UK, but I'm open to correction on that.

 

Hot-bulb engines are hot-bulb engines, and they are distinct from both pure/theoretical Diesel engines, and the sort of practical compression-ignition engines that are called Diesel everywhere except the UK, where they are sometimes given the fudge-term "Oil Engine", which is really a generic term for a multitude of different engines, with different ignition arrangements.

 

If hot-bulb engines were to carry the name of an inventor, it probably ought to be Akroyd-Stuart.

 

And, yes, a hot-bulb engine does ignite without the presence of an external heat-source (=blowlamp), if it is already hot, and it is kept running at a decent speed and load, so keeps hot, but it isn't running in compression-ignition. Akroyd-Stuart's patentees did alter one of his engines to run compression-ignition several years before Diesel built a working engine based on his principles, and it is sometimes used to support a spurious claim that "A-S invented Diesel engines before Diesel", which he didn't. [Edited to remove ambiguity that I spotted on re-reading]

 

Practical "Diesel" (UK = "Oil engine") engines, especially early, small, relatively low-compression ones, do usually need a bit of heat to the head to start them from cold, sometimes done using a blow lamp, sometimes the dreaded battery-flattening glow-plugs, or salt-petre plugs, so in a sense do start as hot-bulb engines, but they then run as proper compression-ignition engines.

 

To get into this properly, you need to look at indicator diagrams from hot-bulbs, and compare them with diagrams from theoretical and practical Diesel engines. A theoretical Diesel indicator diagram has "square corners", a hot-bulb diagram very "rounded corners", and practical diesels sit between the two, getting closer to "square", and starting without external heat, at higher the compression ratios.

 

Kevin

 

A fairly early Akroyd-Stuart, as built by the thousands by Hornsby. The initial military i.c. locos  had this engine, fitted to a frame built by Mannin-Wardle (IIRC, maybe it was Hudswell-Clarke), and a gear-box derived from winch practice.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Whilst each of those is handsome enough in its brutish way, mine's the only pre-Grouping one (so far)!

 

Looking around Norfolk, I see that the Great Eastern's No. 800 was a T.W. Worsdell Y14 Class 0-6-0 - surely one must show up at CA one day?

 

Yes, it has always been the intention to have a Y14.

 

No.800, incidentally, was renumbered in the 1890s, so couldn't make an appearance under that number on CA.

 

In the 1880s they were much needed motive power for coal traffic on the GN-GE joint line, but by the early 1900s were finding work in other places too, as later goods classes went to help on the joint line.  There were several at Norwich and 4 at Lynn.

 

As you know, several were fitted with Westinghouse brakes in order to be able to work passenger services.  These would have been built 1899 or so. These received passenger livery and were known on the GE as the "blue goods".

 

A number of the blue goods were also fitted with vac brakes (not to be confused with others of the class fitted with vac ejectors by the LNER in the '30s). 

 

The need to work vac-braked WNR stock on through services might provide a reason for one of the dual fitted blue goods to be stationed in the area. 

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Quite!

 

I learnt to distrust them at an early age ....

 

 

 

 

I maintain an interest in the Great Western in the 1930s.  I rather like the fact that I only model pre-Grouping railways! 

 

 

In our case ..... 

 

Video removed by the Ladies Committee for Public Decency

 

Um............     That's not the GWR works marching band is it?

 

My Mum told me to stay away from girls like that.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Annie
much more to say

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

Um............     That's not the GWR works marching band is it?

 

My Mum told me to stay away from girls like that.

 

Alas, I never got to within staying away distance of any 

[Nearholmer]

For some reason, unknown to me, I can't see that picture, and am now filling my mind with all sorts of imaginings. Which probably isn't A Good Thing.

[brack]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The initial military i.c. locos  had this engine, fitted to a frame built by Mannin-Wardle (IIRC, maybe it was Hudswell-Clarke), and a gear-box derived from winch practice.

Frame and cab are M-W, essentially identical to contemporary steam locos. They were building one of these at the same time...

 

[brack]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

For some reason, unknown to me, I can't see that picture, and am now filling my mind with all sorts of imaginings. Which probably isn't A Good Thing.

Public Health reasons. I hear looking at those sort of images can lead to blindness...

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, brack said:

Public Health reasons. I hear looking at those sort of images can lead to blindness...

 

No, that's absinthe.

 

Which makes the heart grow fonder.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[nick_bastable]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

No, that's absinthe.

 

Which makes the hear grow fonder.

if you have the bottle I have the sugar cubes 

 

Nick

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Quite!

 

I learnt to distrust them at an early age ....

 

 

 

 

I maintain an interest in the Great Western in the 1930s.  I rather like the fact that I only model pre-Grouping railways! 

 

 

In our case ..... 

 

 

 

Blimey.

[Hroth]

Kevin:  Thanks for the info on Ackroyd-Stewart, etc.  The "semi-diesel" term probably crept into inland waterways usage during the early part of the 20th century and stuck to differentiate the huge single-cylinder engines of that ilk from later more conventional ci diesels.  I also didn't mean to imply that the blowtorch/propane burner was kept going once the engine was running, they were merely to encourage starting!

 

10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I maintain an interest in the Great Western in the 1930s.  I rather like the fact that I only model pre-Grouping railways! 

 

In our case ..... 

 

 

 

 

Good lord!

 

Where DO you come across this ...  stuff?

 

I must admit, I had to re-watch it full-screen on the big monitor to ensure I hadn't missed any details.

 

7 hours ago, Annie said:

Um............     That's not the GWR works marching band is it?

 

My Mum told me to stay away from girls like that.

 

I concur, though like Mr Ed I never encountered anything quite like that.....

(I've led a quite sheltered life, it seems)

 

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Blimey.

 

It certainly leaves one speechless....

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Hroth

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Blimey.

 

I did some research. I failed to find a pre-grouping equivalent - 1928 was as early as I could find: 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

Thanks for the feedback on the West Norfolk Railway's new porters' uniform trial.

 

 

Seeing this video again after many years, it is rather raunchier than I remembered, which suggests that I had been somewhat de-sensitised by the prevailing culture! 

 

Certainly it is hard to see that anyone would be able to make such a video these days, though perhaps Italian and Anglo-American sensibilities were always out of step.  IIRC, this release was as recent as 2006. It seems a world away now. 

 

I found myself quite shocked!

 

I believe, however, that I have found the perfect antidote ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Kirkham]

10 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Possibly a horizontally mounted Bolinder semi-diesel?

 

You see (and hear...) Bolinders in Traditional Narrowboats.  The engine is kickstarted and has an erratic pulse.  In narrowboats they also have a huge brass blowlamp to bring the cylinder head to operating temperature before starting....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H39drBmwxL8

 

I'd never heard of Bolinder engines but hearing of them now rings a bell from long ago; I was on a canal boat holiday organized by my school and my boat was named "Lady Bolinda". I thought then that it was a pecular name and now fifty years later I know its likely origin.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Andy Kirkham

[Nearholmer]

Confusingly, Bolinder isn’t a type of engine, it’s the name of an engine-maker.

 

They made hot-bulb engines of gradually increasing compression ratio, then they made Diesels ditto. Both the hot-bulbs and then low-compression Diesels need pre-heating to start them.

 

Much as I think the term semi-diesel is misleading, engines either being or not being, it is no wonder it exists, because designs elided from not to being. And that doesn’t only apply to Bolinder.

 

[St Enodoc]

15 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Thanks for the feedback on the West Norfolk Railway's new porters' uniform trial.

 

 

Seeing this video again after many years, it is rather raunchier than I remembered, which suggests that I had been somewhat de-sensitised by the prevailing culture! 

 

Certainly it is hard to see that anyone would be able to make such a video these days, though perhaps Italian and Anglo-American sensibilities were always out of step.  IIRC, this release was as recent as 2006. It seems a world away now. 

 

I found myself quite shocked!

 

I believe, however, that I have found the perfect antidote ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Purely in the interests of research, you will understand, I've tried to find a pre-group ladies' musical ensemble but even the Luton Girls' Choir and the Dagenham Girl Pipers only date back to the 1930s (the Wikipedia entry for the LGC has it under the category "Culture in Luton", which, I was suprised to find, has nine entries. There is no category for "Culture in Dagenham").

[webbcompound]

Well to restore equanimity, and bring us firmly pre grouping, here is the band of the WSPU. (That is the Women's Social and Political Union, known more popularly as the suffragettes)

[Nearholmer]

Notice the notice indicating the ‘palmist’. Stern rationality and floaty irrationality in one building.

[Nearholmer]

Well, the Berlusconi Girl Band is now visible and, yes, 'blimey, in its original meaning, probably is the right word.

 

Brack

 

For completeness, the early British loco that may (or may not) have been a Diesel was a 2'6" gauge 0-6-0, and if a catalogue photo is to be believed, it possibly looked very like a miniature Class 08. It was built by McEwan-Pratt in 1911, and named "Eardley Wilmot". It was of nominal 80/100hp, with a four-cylinder engine, which is a pretty astounding power output for the time. [Civil & Etherington, The Railway Products of Baguley-Drewry, Industrial Railway Society, 2008]

 

"The biggest white elephant on the line was the EARDLEY WILMOT, a diesel locomotive built in 1911 by a firm (McEwan, Pratt & Co. Ltd.) which went bankrupt before construction was finished. It was completed at Chatham Dockyard but after four years’ efforts it still would not run. Finally by liberal and frequent applications of petrol the engine was persuaded to haul a load of some fifty tons up from Upnor to Chattenden. Shortly afterwards approval was given to scrap the STAFFORD, but not the EARDLEY WILMOT, so the nameplates were hurriedly switched and the white elephant was buried at last!" [D Yeatman, Industrial Railway Record, No.12, p277-292, 1966]

 

Now, it may actually not have been a Diesel, but the fact that it was a pig to start is highly suggestive, although multi-cylinder hot-bulbs are also known to be difficult beasts. My personal view is that it is unlikely that it was a spark-ignition engine, intended to be started on petrol and cut-over to oil supplied via a vaporiser when warm, because they had been around for a long time and were not difficult to start.

 

It was built at a time when there seems to have been a 100hp "arms race" going on between Britain and Germany, contemporaneous with a 100hp spark-ignition petrol-oil loco by Ruhrthaler, looking not dissimilar, which went to a railway in Australia. That loco was successful at the engine level, but useless for its shunting, because changing gear, especially reversing, through the winch-style transmission was seriously ponderous, and it was too low-geared for branch-line work, but it survived, and I think it may be preserved.[I misremembered the last part - it was dismantled and the engine put into stationary use. Lockyer, Light Railways, No.184, 2005.]

 

Given the builder, "Eardley Wilmot" may have had Hele-Shaw hydrostatic transmission, but it might have come just too early for that, and had a mechanical transmission.

 

In summary, all very mysterious: no known drawings or definite photograph; no certainty about the engine type; mere conjecture regarding the transmission.

 

ideal loco for freelance narrow gauge modellers to riff!

 

Kevin

Edited September 16, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

58 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

Well to restore equanimity, and bring us firmly pre grouping, here is the band of the WSPU. (That is the Women's Social and Political Union, known more popularly as the suffragettes)

 

 

Who would have thought that socially progressive politics could be such fun?

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

 

Who would have thought that socially progressive politics could be such fun?

 

 

Yes, inbetween setting fire to public libraries and Midland Railway carriages.

 

 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

Well to restore equanimity, and bring us firmly pre grouping, here is the band of the WSPU. (That is the Women's Social and Political Union, known more popularly as the suffragettes)

 

Now there's a gang you wouldn't want to cross!

 

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, inbetween setting fire to public libraries and Midland Railway carriages. 

 

I suppose their role was to create a diversion whilst their mates were down the sidings with rags and cans of paraffin....

 

[runs as required]

My Oh My! I've just found out what generates new pages fastest on CA ...

Hot Bulbs, getting Hotter !

dh

Edited September 16, 2019 by runs as required