Fiddlers Ferry & Rugeley Power stations to close

[APOLLO]

Read the other day Fiddlers Ferry coal fired power station is to close 3 of its 4 generators this year, the remaining one will close in 2017. They will be paying a £33milion "fine" to renege on their existing contract to supply.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35489028

 

Rugeley is to close also by early summer this year.

 

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2016/02/08/150-jobs-at-risk-as-rugeley-power-station-announces-closure/

 

Already announced for closure this year, and discussed on other threads are Ferrybridge and Eggborough.

 

Now its a fairly cold winters night, 18.40 PM - Peak Load. What are these plants generating at the moment. (MW)

 

                                   max generation                      generating now 8 feb 2016 at 18.40  

 

Fiddlers Ferry               1980                                      1795

 

Rugeley                        1006                                        460

 

Eggborough                  1960                                      1741

 

Ferrybridge                   1960                                        470   

 

 

That's a heap of generating capacity that won't be available (or replaced) by next winter.

 

That is a real loss to our railways, and will have drastic employment consequences for both power and railway workers.

 

I won't discuss the pro's (if any) & cons personally as I would only be repeating what I (and many others) have wrote on the Didcot and Ferrybridge / Eggbourough etc threads.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69666-the-end-of-didcot-power-station-a-look-at-the-trains-that-served-it/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99404-ferrybridge-power-station-to-close/

 

I am more than a little concerned regarding security of the nations electricity supplies next winter.

 

Never mind, we have biomass trains running round the area in shiny new swoopy wagons !!!!!

 

Brit15

Edited February 8, 2016 by APOLLO

[enginelane]

Do not worry - it's all covered by the private sector coming in to take up the slack including decades away nuclear power with prices confirmed way over normal prices

[russ p]

This is absolutely ridiculous, all just so the a###hole can say we are meeting our quotas .

The other thing is that they don't mothball them just in case

[russ p]

I see fiddlers ferry and ferrybridge aren't that far off flat out. How will we manage if it was properly cold!

[New Haven Neil]

Fiddlers Ferry is a base load station - it is supposed to run almost flat out all the time.  They have gas turbine sets for 'peak lopping' - or they did have when  went around it 'some' years ago.

[jjb1970]

The main value of the coalers in recent years has been flexibility. The coal and CCGT plants give the system the flexibility to compensate for renewables intermittency and react to demand variations quickly. One of the problems with new build coal proposals is that the real value in them lay in flexibility but that flexibility means compromised efficiency. CCGT plants also have to compromise efficiency for flexibility but it generally less so than a large coal plant plus they tend to be quick and cheap (in large power plant terms, a very relative thing) to build.

[jonny777]

Do not worry - it's all covered by the private sector coming in to take up the slack including decades away nuclear power with prices confirmed way over normal prices

 

 

And we can always buy our emergency electricity from the French, also at exhorbitant prices no doubt.

[Derekstuart]

I am mindful of the no politics rule, but we may just find that the current situation changes over the next year or so.

 

I don't just mean in relation to the referendum, although that will play a big part in it. But I think that ALL parties have their share of good, hard working and wise politicians and a share of career spivs. It is no secret that the spivs seem to brown nose their way to the top leaving the better ones in the shadows.

 

I think that regardless of which way the referendum goes we are going to see a role reversal between those two types of politicians. I wouldn't go planning to watch these demolitions just yet.

 

(I have been politically neutral and I hope that fits just within the rules- if anyone thinks otherwise, PM me please and I will review/delete).

 

This is absolutely ridiculous, all just so the a###hole can say we are meeting our quotas .
The other thing is that they don't mothball them just in case

[jjb1970]

I don't think it is impossible we will see a reversal of policy but I think it is unlikely. New coal is dead in the water in the UK, not impossible but carbon capture is expensive and high technical risk and whether or not carbon capture is fitted the concept is politically toxic. Plans to fit CCS to the proposed Kingsnorth 5 & 6 did not do anything to make the idea of new build coal any less divisive and the plant became a magnet for protestors. CCGT offers a quick, relatively low cost bridging option between where we are now and the introduction of new nukes sometime in the future and steadily increasing renewables and whilst not exactly loved by the environmental lobby they're a much easier sell than new coal. Particularly if you can develop CCGT as CHP then the thermal efficiency can be very high. Obviously there is a risk of gas supply but the growth of international LNG trades gives us a lot more potential diversification of supply if necessary.

[Mark Saunders]

To the Conspiracy theorists this is all to justify Fracking!

[Dava]

Never mind, Northern Powerhouse will be wind driven (in your dreams?)

 

Dava

[pharrc20]

I bet National Grid are happy loosing Fiddlers Ferry and Rugeley... two double 275kV circuits from Fiddlers serving the North West and double 400kV circuits from Rugeley.

 

Cheers Paul

[enginelane]

Never mind, Northern Powerhouse will be wind driven (in your dreams?)

Dava

Not wind power but run by a lot of hot air that is already running out of puff.

[Derekstuart]

JJB

 

Like I wrote, you might just see a reverse of policy. I hear that people have found a few cellars dotted around the Country packed with common sense and they are threatening to open the packing crates.

[jjb1970]

I think it all depends on the individuals perception of common sense. I’ll admit I have reservations about the subsidy regimes that have been used in the electricity sector and the fact that renewable energy basically came to mean wind and subsidised solar panels (although there are some good projects trying to utilise wave and tidal) and I think that for the foreseeable future we will need a reliable base load capacity. However I also think the move to renewables and a new generation nuclear program is the right thing to do. The world is in a technological transition phase, transitions are seldom without some sort of trauma and blind alleyways but I think a shift to alternative energy is needed. What I would say is that I think much more effort is needed to promote efficiency (it makes me cringe when sensible efforts to promote efficiency are ridiculed for no other apparent reason than that they emanate from European institutions) on the basis that the cleanest power plant (I’ll include renewables in that) is the one you don’t need because you’ve reduced demand through efficiency. I also think that for renewable energy to really come of age needs more effort on energy storage and I’d like to see a lot more effort in that field. Interestingly, cars which have always been the great evil to the eco lobby may actually be part of the solution as a large scale shift to plug in electric cars could potentially provide significant energy storage by charging up overnight and then being used through the day.

[jonny777]

 Interestingly, cars which have always been the great evil to the eco lobby may actually be part of the solution as a large scale shift to plug in electric cars could potentially provide significant energy storage by charging up overnight and then being used through the day.

 

 

That is a great point jjb and I have never really thought of it in those terms, but millions of cars being charged overnight would also be a steady but predictable use of base load generation which would not require any extra expensive generators to be switched into the system as there would be no overnight "spikes" as in the day.

[woodenhead]

Without wanting to get political, what have Labour said about the Government plans to abandon coal.

 

If it was nothing or little then unless the lights start going out I think the coal powered power stations are on a route to oblivion and the Government's plans will come about quite quickly as contracts run out or investment is required on the remaining stations.

 

It will also be no surprise to any of the generating companies and what is happening now is part of the medium term plan to rid the UK of coal fired stations.

[Revolution Mike]

I don't think it is any particular surprise that coal is on its way out - the inability to make CCS "work" financially was the deathknell, particularly with low gas prices.

 

For all the doom and gloom there are coal plants being converted to multi-fuel (biomass) units and new biomass units and CCGT plants being built. So while the isolated figures of plant closing looks bad, without new plant figures (or existing plants being re-opened) they are one-sided!

 

Cheers, Mike

[Waverley West]

Surely there must be a strategic plan somewhere which sets out our projected power needs and where that power is going to come from over the next few decades? 

Or is that just a silly idea?

[Clearwater]

Surely there must be a strategic plan somewhere which sets out our projected power needs and where that power is going to come from over the next few decades? 

 

Or is that just a silly idea?

Yes - DECC and National Grid both publish such documents...

 

In my view, the issue that creates a narrow reserve margin is that the net margin earned on a power station is less than the capital cost of building such a station. Take the cost of a new build gas or coal plant and compare it to the spark spread (the difference between the power price and the cost of fuel) and you'll find the Net present value is below the build cost.

 

The only reason renewables get built is because the subsidy makes it financeable.

 

David

[GordonC]

isn't Germany building a whole load of Coal-fired power stations to replace their nuclear ones? what is different about them that they're 'allowed' within EU rules and our existing ones aren't or cannot be made to be 'allowed'. We surely cant be expecting the increase in renewables over the next year to cover the shortfall from Fiddlers Ferry and Rugeley being closed.

[woodenhead]

I don't think it is any particular surprise that coal is on its way out - the inability to make CCS "work" financially was the deathknell, particularly with low gas prices.

 

For all the doom and gloom there are coal plants being converted to multi-fuel (biomass) units and new biomass units and CCGT plants being built. So while the isolated figures of plant closing looks bad, without new plant figures (or existing plants being re-opened) they are one-sided!

 

Cheers, Mike

It is very easy to look at this from the rail enthusiast perspective; Rugeley, Didcot, Fiddlers Ferry, Ferrybridge - all very iconic places and our past when watching MGR trains bouncing around the country.  The old Carrington Power Station that used to be rail served but long demolished has had a gas power station just built on it's footprint and there are plenty of other similar new stations dotted about.

 

There is still a concern about being beholden to other countries but another way to look at this is that we are sat on massive coal reserves.  If one day there isn't an alternative we can always get our shovels out again.

[Revolution Mike]

isn't Germany building a whole load of Coal-fired power stations to replace their nuclear ones? what is different about them that they're 'allowed' within EU rules and our existing ones aren't or cannot be made to be 'allowed'. We surely cant be expecting the increase in renewables over the next year to cover the shortfall from Fiddlers Ferry and Rugeley being closed.

 

Germany also has a much larger base of renewables installed than the UK, but you are missing the point.  "EU rules" * don't say you can't build coal but that if you do build or operate coal plants than they must meet certain standards on emissions.  For CO2 emissions that is governed by the emissions trading scheme, for other pollutants by the minimum requirements and best available technique (BAT) standards of the Industrial Emissions Directive.  Meeting those standards is technically achievable, but may not be economically worthwhile (particularly vs cheap gas). Fiddlers Ferry and Rugeley are both over 45 years old and it may not have made any economic sense to upgrade them.

 

Clearwater's point on the lack of incentive to invest in new plants is (IMHO) the bigger medium-long term issue.

 

* declaration of interest: I was involved in setting some of the technical standards for large combustion plants.

[woodenhead]

Also got to wonder if relying on a few massive generators is a national risk - if you have your energy production spread geographically as well as by source of fuel/renewable then you are less at risk.

[28XX]

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

 

Is a good site to watch what happens when the weather, or other major events, influence electricity demand. There is a nightmare scenario which had been tested by academic exercise only, where one large station is offline for maintenance, another succumbs to a breakdown and the weather turns icy cold with no wind at the same time. The demand then causes the voltage and frequency to fall so low that large parts of the grid shut down.

 

Personally I'm trying to persuade Mrs 28xx to allow a diesel generator to be bought.

Edited February 9, 2016 by 28XX