Fiddlers Ferry & Rugeley Power stations to close

[russ p]

It's hardly a once in a hundred year event now every time the idiots close another we get closer and closer to this.

The other thing that doesn't seem to have factored in is all the railway electrification that is taking place. Makes you wonder if this is why some been suspended?

Edited February 9, 2016 by russ p

[Revolution Mike]

Historically it hasn't mattered too much relying on a relatively small number of large plants.  The Grid can reduce voltages and ask major energy users to reduce their consumption.  At the same time there are some plants that are only used for peak demand though the problem with some of them can be their ability to react quickly enough.

 

For some things eg combustion plants you need the scale to give you the best thermal efficiencies. There have been numerous occasions where there have been unexpected shutdowns of large plants (eg over the last few years the nuclear fleet has been particularly creaky at times). Of course the narrower the amount of slack in the system the more difficult things become!

 

Renewables win on the grounds that they are distributed over a wide geographical area so any intermittency shouldn't in theory affect everywhere (though inevitably there will be some low wind days!).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Anyone know why Ratcliffe doesn't seem to be generating anything at the mo?

[avonside1563]

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

 

Is a good site to watch what happens when the weather, or other major events, influence electricity demand. There is a nightmare scenario which had been tested by academic exercise only, where one large station is offline for maintenance, another succumbs to a breakdown and the weather turns icy cold with no wind at the same time. The demand then causes the voltage and frequency to fall so low that large parts of the grid shut down.

 

Personally I'm trying to persuade Mrs 28xx to allow a diesel generator to be bought.

DRS are looking to dispose of 12 locomotives soon, perhaps one of these would make a lovely diesel generator in the garden?

[28XX]

If large chunks of the grid ever do shut down there is also the problem of a dark start (I think that's the term) Most plants rely on the grid being available to get themselves going again from a shutdown, from the point of view of instrumentation and services, but also there needs to be a connected load, at voltage and frequency, to synchronise with.

Edited February 9, 2016 by 28XX

[lmsforever]

Ah well someone will be happy with these closures the green lobby will not stop until we depend only on windmills but there is all that gas coming from hetland now so maybe the lights wont go out .Could be interesting if someone buys a 66 and wants to put It on a preserve line were would it go?

[Derekstuart]

I made this point a little while back. If I was feeling charitable to our politicians I would say this (and North Sea gas/oil too) deliberate run down was to protect in case of future emergencies. However, I have long since given up on the concept of government- both red and blue alike- that they would think beyond their next brown envelope and press release.

There is still a concern about being beholden to other countries but another way to look at this is that we are sat on massive coal reserves.  If one day there isn't an alternative we can always get our shovels out again.

[Reorte]

If large chunks of the grid ever do shut down there is also the problem of a dark start (I think that's the term) Most plants rely on the grid being available to get themselves going again from a shutdown, from the point of view of instrumentation and services, but also there needs to be a connected load, at voltage and frequency, to synchronise with.

Hydroelectric can provide that and there's a fair amount of that up in Scotland. Open the sluices by hand (or at worst lugging a small generator over to them).

[Revolution Mike]

Ah well someone will be happy with these closures the green lobby will not stop until we depend only on windmills but there is all that gas coming from hetland now so maybe the lights wont go out .

 

This is just nonsense and anyone from the "green lobby" that says such a thing would/should be told so. The thing is that I don't think there are many in the "green lobby" (and I work regularly with many of them) that think what you claim. Just as the green groups do themselves no favours at times with some of their tactics (see FoE on fracking this week) neither does this black/white approach do you any credit.

[Arthur]

 

So what do the green lobby find acceptable? Seriously?

 

I've never heard any in favour of gas, coal, fracking, nuclear (though James Lovelock has become a convert).

 

Which leaves us with what, currently wind power? Tidal power generation is in its infancy, schemes like the Severn barrage arouse the ire of some environmental groups.

 

So what do they find acceptable as the medium term solution?

[APOLLO]

So what do the green lobby find acceptable? Seriously?

 

I've never heard any in favour of gas, coal, fracking, nuclear (though James Lovelock has become a convert).

 

Which leaves us with what, currently wind power? Tidal power generation is in its infancy, schemes like the Severn barrage arouse the ire of some environmental groups.

 

So what do they find acceptable as the medium term solution?

 

"They" have not got a clue Arthur.

 

Amber Rudd the energy secretary has a degree in History -- Specialised subject "The dark ages" no doubt !!!!!

 

I despair, but sod it, I'm retired now after 40 years in the gas industry.

 

Aldi do a nice hand held 60 LED rechargeable handlamp for a tenner. I've bought a couple, keep em charged up and close to hand, just in case !!

 

 

 

Brit15

[Revolution Mike]

So what do the green lobby find acceptable? Seriously?

 

I've never heard any in favour of gas, coal, fracking, nuclear (though James Lovelock has become a convert).

 

Which leaves us with what, currently wind power? Tidal power generation is in its infancy, schemes like the Severn barrage arouse the ire of some environmental groups.

 

So what do they find acceptable as the medium term solution?

 

Depends on who you are talking to! Plenty of people that might be considered green readily accept gas, coal and nuclear as part of the solution!

[russ p]

I bought some LED camping lamps the other day,partly because we have had a lot of power interruptions this year due to transmission lines down ,but also I don't trust the current energy policy

[Derekstuart]

Reduce their consumption? I take it that you aren't old enough to remember the 3 and 4 day weeks and lights going dim or off.

Historically it hasn't mattered too much relying on a relatively small number of large plants.  The Grid can reduce voltages and ask major energy users to reduce their consumption.  At the same time there are some plants that are only used for peak demand though the problem with some of them can be their ability to react quickly enough.

 

For some things eg combustion plants you need the scale to give you the best thermal efficiencies. There have been numerous occasions where there have been unexpected shutdowns of large plants (eg over the last few years the nuclear fleet has been particularly creaky at times). Of course the narrower the amount of slack in the system the more difficult things become!

 

Renewables win on the grounds that they are distributed over a wide geographical area so any intermittency shouldn't in theory affect everywhere (though inevitably there will be some low wind days!).

 

You've just written pretty much just that above.

This is just nonsense and anyone from the "green lobby" that says such a thing would/should be told so. The thing is that I don't think there are many in the "green lobby" (and I work regularly with many of them) that think what you claim. Just as the green groups do themselves no favours at times with some of their tactics (see FoE on fracking this week) neither does this black/white approach do you any credit.

 

Oh yes, green types are open to discussions and reality. I will take greens (the movement not the party (that that natalie... dear oh dear)- RMW no politics rule) more seriously when they stop flying to Corfu for 2 weeks in the sun, stop using cars, stop using trains, stop using electricity and by extension stop using computers. Any idea how much electricity is used to keep internet servers running? Also to save building on green lands they can forage for pieces of wood to build tents. Until a green spokesman can claim to have done all that they should stop telling ME to do it. Now if you'll excuse me I have an appointment with my V8 Jaguar at the petrol station.

Depends on who you are talking to! Plenty of people that might be considered green readily accept gas, coal and nuclear as part of the solution!

[arran]

Historically it hasn't mattered too much relying on a relatively small number of large plants.  The Grid can reduce voltages and ask major energy users to reduce their consumption.  At the same time there are some plants that are only used for peak demand though the problem with some of them can be their ability to react quickly enough.

 

For some things eg combustion plants you need the scale to give you the best thermal efficiencies. There have been numerous occasions where there have been unexpected shutdowns of large plants (eg over the last few years the nuclear fleet has been particularly creaky at times). Of course the narrower the amount of slack in the system the more difficult things become!

 

Renewables win on the grounds that they are distributed over a wide geographical area so any intermittency shouldn't in theory affect everywhere (though inevitably there will be some low wind days!).

HI All

 

Try some NO wind days all over the UK there are sites you can look at to see what the output of various power come from and some days wind can be as low as 0.2mg which is basically useless. Solar well the sun goes to bed at night and when its cloudy it way down so let not kid our self's on all this But i fear it will take a major power cut to wake the masses up to all this supposed green nonsense.

 

Regards Arran

[highpeakman]

As I understand it (and I am open to sensible and reasoned correction if I am wrong of course) it is not just "no wind" days that stop power generation by windmills but they are also turned off when the wind is too strong (presumably a lot recently).

 

I also understand that, in many cases, their power generation ability is taken over by standby diesel generator "farms" to fill in at these times.                   Not very "green", not thermally efficient and costly!

 

This information came from someone who sells such generation systems and had no points to gain by discussing it.

 

It would be so nice to get sensible and truthfully balanced information on types power generation without it being biased by groups with axes to grind (however well meaning or commercially interested they may well be). Yes, we do have to do something about climate change but we cannot just shut coal burning generation down in the next few years. When the lights start going out, putting lives at risk because we are closing coal fired stations too quickly I hope the people who lobbied for it still think it was the right thing to do. Yes, I do remember the 70s but everyday life now is much more dependent on power generation than it was then with the internet, etc. That includes railways of course!

[jjb1970]

So what do the green lobby find acceptable? Seriously?

 

I've never heard any in favour of gas, coal, fracking, nuclear (though James Lovelock has become a convert).

 

Which leaves us with what, currently wind power? Tidal power generation is in its infancy, schemes like the Severn barrage arouse the ire of some environmental groups.

 

So what do they find acceptable as the medium term solution?

Unfortunately this is where many environmental pressure groups and green advocates fall over and it ends up undermining the credibility of some of the arguments. I'm a bit of a tree hugger and advocate renewable energy but I do cringe at some of the people who seem very vocal who seem to object to everything. Unfortunately modern politics and the media tends to promote polarisation and exaggerates differences to present arguments in simplistic ways. The fact that some environmental activists are not the brightest bulbs and are much better at objecting to things than promoting positive solutions should not be seen as discrediting the fundamental arguments supporting increased investment in renewable energy.

At the moment and for the foreseeable future it is not a case of either or but both renewable and more traditional energy. Advocating renewable does not mean advocating switching off all fossil fuel plants no more than recognising that the grid needs flexible thermal plants should be considered as being anti-renewable.

[Revolution Mike]

Reduce their consumption? I take it that you aren't old enough to remember the 3 and 4 day weeks and lights going dim or off.

 

You've just written pretty much just that above.

 

Oh yes, green types are open to discussions and reality. I will take greens (the movement not the party (that that natalie... dear oh dear)- RMW no politics rule) more seriously when they stop flying to Corfu for 2 weeks in the sun, stop using cars, stop using trains, stop using electricity and by extension stop using computers. Any idea how much electricity is used to keep internet servers running? Also to save building on green lands they can forage for pieces of wood to build tents. Until a green spokesman can claim to have done all that they should stop telling ME to do it. Now if you'll excuse me I have an appointment with my V8 Jaguar at the petrol station.

 

Yes, reduce their consumption - it happens to large energy users on occasions (they generally get paid for it as well).

 

Nowhere have I claimed that it is renewables or nothing! I was talking about some of the advantages and disadvantages of both centralised and distributed generation.  You need both.

 

I'm not sure what the green party has to do with the much wider green movement.  Nor do I see why you feel to do exactly what you accuse the greens of by exaggerating to the point of ridicule.  One can have an environmental conscience while recognising some of the inherent problems (and sometimes hypocrisy).  Just because I would rather my electricity came from nuclear, gas, renewables than coal doesn't mean I should have to stop using electricity.

 

Highpeakman - yes, it is true that wind turbines are shut down at higher speeds.  The point about renewables is that many of them can be intermittent but if you install enough it is rare that they can't make meaningful contributions to the Grid.  You can see from the stats in the grid figures already provided that wind provides anywhere between 0 and 5 GW (ie upto 12-13% of our power). Yes, you need some back up provision (whether that is small scale diesel generation or larger scale plants) - if you were really bothered you could work out the tipping points of whether it was cleaner or not.  On coal we probably can (and will) close the majority of coal over the next few years until of course gas prices rocket!

[Derekstuart]

Paying people not to use electricity?

For goodness sake. That does not even deserve a discussion.

Yes, reduce their consumption - it happens to large energy users on occasions (they generally get paid for it as well).

 

Nowhere have I claimed that it is renewables or nothing! I was talking about some of the advantages and disadvantages of both centralised and distributed generation.  You need both.

 

I'm not sure what the green party has to do with the much wider green movement.  Nor do I see why you feel to do exactly what you accuse the greens of by exaggerating to the point of ridicule.  One can have an environmental conscience while recognising some of the inherent problems (and sometimes hypocrisy).  Just because I would rather my electricity came from nuclear, gas, renewables than coal doesn't mean I should have to stop using electricity.

 

Highpeakman - yes, it is true that wind turbines are shut down at higher speeds.  The point about renewables is that many of them can be intermittent but if you install enough it is rare that they can't make meaningful contributions to the Grid.  You can see from the stats in the grid figures already provided that wind provides anywhere between 0 and 5 GW (ie upto 12-13% of our power). Yes, you need some back up provision (whether that is small scale diesel generation or larger scale plants) - if you were really bothered you could work out the tipping points of whether it was cleaner or not.  On coal we probably can (and will) close the majority of coal over the next few years until of course gas prices rocket!

[Kenton]

Sometimes, I think we are a lot of old worrying women!

Why do we use so much electricity?

Some folk on this planet manage perfectly well with none or a lot less.

I have a box of candles and a box of matches.

I can do without the telly and most other gadgets.

I know how to light a fire to boil my water and cook the odd dead animal.

It is not the end of the world, it is just an old power station.

Sorry, just cannot get worked up about it.

[Clearwater]

Paying people not to use electricity?

For goodness sake. That does not even deserve a discussion.

That's what can and does happens though. Generated electricity is traded in the same way as any other commodity. You can buy electricity on the "forward" market out for 18-24m, possibly longer in off market trades. A generator then has the obligation to deliver that power at a given point. To the extent they haven't got any power of their own to deliver at that point, eg their plant is down due to there being no wind or unscheduled maintenance etc etc, they have to buy power on the spot (ie immediate delivery) market. Therefore at times of peak demand, the spot price of power can peak to a multiple of the average daily price. That's when the "peaker" plants make their money.

 

Now Take, eg, a large supermarket chain. They are a large consumer of power. Does it really matter if they switch off power to their freezers for two mins at the 5pm peak? Probably not however it means the overall spot market price comes down as the demand falls.

 

Incidentally, this is part of the rationale behind domestic smart meters. Effectively an economy seven plan writ large backed by technology

 

David

Edited February 9, 2016 by Clearwater

[Bon Accord]

Sometimes, I think we are a lot of old worrying women! Why do we use so much electricity? Some folk on this planet manage perfectly well with none or a lot less. I have a box of candles and a box of matches. I can do without the telly and most other gadgets. I know how to light a fire to boil my water and cook the odd dead animal. It is not the end of the world, it is just an old power station. Sorry, just cannot get worked up about it.

 

Which is all well and good when it comes down to basic survival, however since we pretend to live in a civilised western European country we should perhaps aspire to somewhat more salubrious refinements.

Not forgetting that no leckie = no operating model railway...

[russ p]

What is so annoying about this is we are (or were) totally self sufficient in coal yet we have abandoned it instead of looking at ways of making it more environmentally friendly.

Yet we throw millions at foreign companies to build wind turbines .

I know not everyone will agree with this point of view but to any true railwayman there can be no other way.

[Dava]

Read the other day Fiddlers Ferry coal fired power station is to close 3 of its 4 generators this year, the remaining one will close in 2017. They will be paying a £33milion "fine" to renege on their existing contract to supply.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35489028

 

Rugeley is to close also by early summer this year.

 

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2016/02/08/150-jobs-at-risk-as-rugeley-power-station-announces-closure/

 

Already announced for closure this year, and discussed on other threads are Ferrybridge and Eggborough.

 

Now its a fairly cold winters night, 18.40 PM - Peak Load. What are these plants generating at the moment. (MW)

 

                                   max generation                      generating now 8 feb 2016 at 18.40  

 

Fiddlers Ferry               1980                                      1795

 

Rugeley                        1006                                        460

 

Eggborough                  1960                                      1741

 

Ferrybridge                   1960                                        470   

 

 

That's a heap of generating capacity that won't be available (or replaced) by next winter.

 

That is a real loss to our railways, and will have drastic employment consequences for both power and railway workers.

 

I won't discuss the pro's (if any) & cons personally as I would only be repeating what I (and many others) have wrote on the Didcot and Ferrybridge / Eggbourough etc threads.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69666-the-end-of-didcot-power-station-a-look-at-the-trains-that-served-it/

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99404-ferrybridge-power-station-to-close/

 

I am more than a little concerned regarding security of the nations electricity supplies next winter.

 

Never mind, we have biomass trains running round the area in shiny new swoopy wagons !!!!!

 

Brit15

I'm interested in where you get the power station live output data? Had a good look but couldn't find it. As Pete K said, Ratcliffe (our local) is not in your data but is boiling merrily. Cheers.

 

Dava

[phil-b259]

That's what can and does happens though. Generated electricity is traded in the same way as any other commodity. You can buy electricity on the "forward" market out for 18-24m, possibly longer in off market trades. A generator then has the obligation to deliver that power at a given point.

Why does everything in this country have to be done to benefit City Of London wheeler dealers and their gambling lifestyle. A good electricity supply is a vital to the overall well being of the country, not some arbitrary 'comodaty' to be traded for financial gain.

Edited February 9, 2016 by phil-b259