Fiddlers Ferry & Rugeley Power stations to close

[Arthur]

 

For some years no government of any colour have covered themselves in glory with respect to a coherent and long term energy policy. It's been a hot potato they've been happy to pass on to the next lot. That potato is rapidly cooling.

[jamie92208]

There's an article in todays Times about yet another warning that we are getting very close not having enough electricity generating capacity.   Not a good state of affairs.

 

Jamie

[jjb1970]

A friend of mine sent me the following link:

 

http://www.energypost.eu/end-coal-good-riddance-dangerous-gamble/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=linkedin&utm_source=socialnetwork

 

Quite interesting and I suspect representative of the views of many RMweb members. I find some of it to be well found, other bits are demonstrably either incorrect or only tell part of a story. For example gas fired CCGT plant generally has a quicker start up time than coal plant and is very flexible. The comments on NOx and SOx emissions also strike me as odd given that the technology to abate both has been around for decades and for example SOx control was a key part of the EC large combustion plant directive many years ago. Whilst the article does make some valid and well observed points I also tend to question the underlying motivation of a writer when some of the arguments presented are at best not entirely accurate and at worst misrepresenting an argument.

[bescotbeast]

For some years no government of any colour have covered themselves in glory with respect to a coherent and long term energy policy. It's been a hot potato they've been happy to pass on to the next lot. That potato is rapidly cooling.

Private Eyes "Old Sparky" column has been saying this for many years now and the current issue has a section about changes to the Generating capacity auctions and how it's been cocked up in favor of short term quick fixes.

[jonathan452]

So the penny is finally dropping - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mps-warn-blackouts-next-christmas-if-dangerously-small-energy-margins-not-tackled-1597115

[D1059]

So the penny is finally dropping - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mps-warn-blackouts-next-christmas-if-dangerously-small-energy-margins-not-tackled-1597115

 

I think the penny dropped some time ago for most, but these things tend to gather a momentum all their own and altering things now could be a bit like trying to alter course in a supertanker, even though you can see the iceberg dead ahead.

 

The time to tackle this issue was over 10 years ago, but the Blair regime studiously avoided taking ANY decisions, despite having committed us to the climate change treaties

[Davexoc]

So the penny is finally dropping - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mps-warn-blackouts-next-christmas-if-dangerously-small-energy-margins-not-tackled-1597115

Is this the real reason for postponing all those electrification schemes?

The problem lies with renewables. We've put a whole load off eggs in the solar and wind baskets. What has the weather done recently? Its been calm, dull and foggy. So solar has been almost useless, and wind not much better, giving a combined deficit of around 10GW.

The recent short cold snap saw Gas, Coal, Biomass, Nuclear and Hydro all running virtually flat out. If the power goes out, it'll be around 1700hrs when peak demand hits.

Add a couple more fleets of electric trains and a load more hybrid/electric vehicles that arrive home to be plugged in ready for the next day, and that will tip the balance.

Hinkley Point is years away, as are tidal projects, which are more reliable than current renewables. Looks like we need to convert some of the recently closed coal stations to co-fire biomass, and soon.....

 

If you want to see what demand there is, go to     http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

Dave

[russ p]

About three years ago I was speaking to a senior network rail electrification engineer he told me that for all the electrification planned they had been told they had to build a new power station. Obviously this has not happened so it maybe that projects have stalled due to lack of capacity in the grid

[Ray M]

Eggboro looked pretty well fired up yesterday,

as i was driving past.

[28XX]

The way out of this mess is to invest in utility scale energy storage. The technology exists and has been trialled in the States. It is suited to distributed deployment, i.e. every town should have one. This will support local micro generation schemes and avoid the creation of a juicy terrorist target such as a nuclear power station.

[Revolution Mike]

and avoid the creation of a juicy terrorist target such as a nuclear power station.

 

This is just nonsense and the worst type of tabloid scaremongering. Apart from the sites being well-protected (by the CNC), think about the civil engineering of a nuclear reactor and then think about what it actually takes to plough through several metres of concrete, steel and lead (?) etc.

 

Post 9/11 several bodies carried out computer simulations of modern wide bodied aircraft being flown into nuclear plants - the results said they wouldn't even breach the containment structure let alone the reactor vessel.

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately nuclear safety is indelibly associated with images of mushroom clouds and the memory of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in popular culture.

 

The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster was a triple melt down, well beyond what most would consider the worst case scenario yet it resulted in no direct fatalities. Expensive to clean up yes, but then again so was the rest of the damage caused by the tsunami which killed over 15,000 people.

[Zomboid]

I think Chernobyl is more relevant in peoples minds to nuclear power safety, though from what little I know of the circumstances, that's highly, highly unlikely to be repeated. Likewise 3 mile island. And of course the communities near nuclear power stations are generally in favour of them, because they are actually very safe and a large employer, often in places with little other industry.

Of more significance is the fact that there is nothing that can be done about the waste. Burying it is a solution that isn't really a solution.

[surfsup]

Of more significance is the fact that there is nothing that can be done about the waste. Burying it is a solution that isn't really a solution.

That's the nail you've hit on the head which concerns me about Nuclear Power generation. It's sad that while it may be considered 'green' to produce the electricity from, It's the subsequent disposal and storage I'm not keen on. I just hope we can work with scientists from around the world to reduce nuclear waste so that ultimately we wont just be buying it underground (I know how safe the procedure is) and leaving it for future generations to come.

[royaloak]

 The point about renewables is that many of them can be intermittent but if you install enough it is rare that they can't make meaningful contributions to the Grid.  You can see from the stats in the grid figures already provided that wind provides anywhere between 0 and 5 GW (ie upto 12-13% of our power). Yes, you need some back up provision (whether that is small scale diesel generation or larger scale plants) - if you were really bothered you could work out the tipping points of whether it was cleaner or not.  On coal we probably can (and will) close the majority of coal over the next few years until of course gas prices rocket!

So the answer to realistic 'green' energy is to have a back up which is the least efficient and most polluting!

 

Brilliant.

[royaloak]

That's the nail you've hit on the head which concerns me about Nuclear Power generation. It's sad that while it may be considered 'green' to produce the electricity from, It's the subsequent disposal and storage I'm not keen on. I just hope we can work with scientists from around the world to reduce nuclear waste so that ultimately we wont just be buying it underground (I know how safe the procedure is) and leaving it for future generations to come.

Plenty of old coal mines where you could dispose of the spent nuclear fuel, just imagine in 500 years time when coal makes a comeback, how well the irradiated coal would burn! 

[Revolution Mike]

So the answer to realistic 'green' energy is to have a back up which is the least efficient and most polluting!

 

Brilliant.

I'm not sure where you got that from - my comment in brackets was that is how the back up generation is currently done, but that is no reason why it has to be those sources.  Technically you would be better of with modern CCGT plants for back up in most cases (though financing them may be an issue if only for back up).

 

Personally I think using banks of diesel generators is pretty stupid, but as I said you can relatively easily work out whether the emissions/inefficiency of such back up outweighs the benefits from renewables.

[jjb1970]

So the answer to realistic 'green' energy is to have a back up which is the least efficient and most polluting!

 

Brilliant.

 

To analyse this you need to consider both rate of discharge quantity and absolute quantity of discharge. Put simply, some inefficient use of hydrocarbon fuels for short periods in support of renewable forms of generation will probably result in far lower emissions than running clean and efficient hydrocarbon plants as the default mode of generation.

[lmsforever]

​ I'm stocking up on candles as I have thought for a long time that we are in trouble  especialy when I see so many windmills at a stand still due to no wind.

[jjb1970]

I think society needs to make its mind up, as a society I get the impression that:

 

• We want to reduce environmental impact and hand a planet to future generations which is not totally wrecked, but we don't want to pay for cleaner energy
• We suffer angst at the possibility we could be held to ransom by nasty countries that sell us oil and gas but then object to alternative energy
• We want to keep coal mining but the natural extension of a desire for cleaner energy is that it is very difficult to support continued use of coal
• We object to big windmills, but we don't want nuclear and we want to reduce GHG emissions, somebody else can figure out how to keep the lights on
• We tut tut at fuel bills whilst sitting in a toasty warm house in a T shirt and boxer shorts when it is -5 outside
• We demand cheap energy but also want huge investment in energy infrastructure

 

OK, that is all a bit flippant I know, but there is also a lot of truth in it. There is no such thing as zero impact energy conversion, and people need to understand that if they genuinely do want to reduce detriment to the environment then there is a cost to developing a low carbon energy future. One of the problems we have is that people want to cling to concepts which are exclusive.

[62613]

To analyse this you need to consider both rate of discharge quantity and absolute quantity of discharge. Put simply, some inefficient use of hydrocarbon fuels for short periods in support of renewable forms of generation will probably result in far lower emissions than running clean and efficient hydrocarbon plants as the default mode of generation.

Have you come across any STOR plants at all?

[jjb1970]

Have you come across any STOR plants at all?

The system always had such plants. EON still had the open cycle RR olympus gas turbines at Willesden (Taylor's Lane) which hardly ever ran but made a tidy sum when it was needed. Quite a few CCGT plants operated in a similar fashion at times.

[62613]

I think society needs to make its mind up, as a society I get the impression that:

 

• We want to reduce environmental impact and hand a planet to future generations which is not totally wrecked, but we don't want to pay for cleaner energy
• We suffer angst at the possibility we could be held to ransom by nasty countries that sell us oil and gas but then object to alternative energy
• We want to keep coal mining but the natural extension of a desire for cleaner energy is that it is very difficult to support continued use of coal
• We object to big windmills, but we don't want nuclear and we want to reduce GHG emissions, somebody else can figure out how to keep the lights on
• We tut tut at fuel bills whilst sitting in a toasty warm house in a T shirt and boxer shorts when it is -5 outside
• We demand cheap energy but also want huge investment in energy infrastructure

 

OK, that is all a bit flippant I know, but there is also a lot of truth in it. There is no such thing as zero impact energy conversion, and people need to understand that if they genuinely do want to reduce detriment to the environment then there is a cost to developing a low carbon energy future. One of the problems we have is that people want to cling to concepts which are exclusive.

Is this, to use a current buzzword, 'Having one's cake and eating it'?

[62613]

The system always had such plants. EON still had the open cycle RR olympus gas turbines at Willesden (Taylor's Lane) which hardly ever ran but made a tidy sum when it was needed. Quite a few CCGT plants operated in a similar fashion at times.

The ones I was involved with use diesel engines running on natural gas, on the Otto cycle, as mentioned above.

[APOLLO]

No free lunches in the energy industry.

 

Green energy will never supply UK base load at peak winter times. It's Nuclear, Gas, or Coal for the very large base load generators at these times. Biomass ain't green either, despite what it says on Hatton's wagons !!!

 

Fiddlers Ferry got a reprieve till March 2017, I wonder what will happen after that ?.

 

Brit15