Fiddlers Ferry & Rugeley Power stations to close

[Allegheny1600]

I'm barely knowledgeable enough about all this to comment, even though I did work for BBPN at the time and amongst other projects, did my small part to help build the "Scotland - N. Ireland Interconnector" (which I see is now known as the "Moyle Interconnector") - which was a pretty tough job for our engineers, I can assure you! The weather at times was horrific.

Anyway, what happens when the price of (all the imported) gas goes up?

Cheers,

John E.

[APOLLO]

 

 

Anyway, what happens when the price of (all the imported) gas goes up?

 

The price of electricity will shoot up, as well as the price of gas. Double whammy.

 

What is more concerning is the ongoing / potential worsening political (in)stability of the countries we import LNG (liquefied natural gas) from. It's also a double whammy if the UK's continuity of gas supplies become at risk in future.

 

This site is well worth a look at.

 

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/westfield-development-centre-fife-april-2012.t70355

 

The plant was built by British Gas back in the 60's to make SNG (substitute natural gas) from coal. It was a success, but as more NSea gas was discovered it was not needed. The technology is proven though. We've shut all the pits now.

 

It's a strange road into uncharted territory we are heading. If all else fails I see a return to coal in a few years time, it will take a catastrophic energy failure over several winters before any decisions are made. It's either that or Nuclear.

 

Brit15

Edited February 29, 2016 by APOLLO

[Arthur]

Great link Apollo, there's some fascinating stuff on the 28dayslater site. Is that plant still there or has it now been demolished?

 

It looks a bit like a modern producer gas plant, commonly used by several industries up to the 60's to gasify coal on site. Most steelworks had them. Steam was blown through a bed of incandescent crushed coal to make producer gas, the flammable components of which are carbon monoxide and hydrogen.

 

Interesting that it's a proven technology and was considered a success.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Arthur

[APOLLO]

Nowt new Arthur. I don't know the "Lurgi" process that was used at Westfield, though I remember that as it was later a test plant and many different sources / grades of coal were tested.

 

At the old "Town Gas" works at Longford, Warrington (and most others also) there was a "Water Gas" plant which produced Carbon Monoxide etc by passing steam over red hot coke. This was used to adjust the CV (calorific value) of towns gas produced by mixing them to keep the supply to the public at a constant CV value. This value varied as to the types of coal used - quite a process and the main job of the gas works chemist was to test samples of the various coals received .

 

As well as Water gas (sometimes called Producer Gas in the gas industry) there were other processes also at various locations.

 

I don't know if the Westfield plant still exists, probably not. Hope they didn't lose the blueprints !!!!

 

More interesting info  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140625194132-74775225-so-long-westfield

 

Brit15

Edited February 29, 2016 by APOLLO

[Arthur]

 

Thanks for the extra info Apollo.

 

I should say that I wasn't intending to down play the success of the plant with my clumsy last sentence. Really just noting that a process once used on a local scale seemed to have been translated into a method of supplying gas in bulk.

[jjb1970]

Reforming hydrogen and carbon into synthetic hydrocarbon gases and liquids is technically straightforward (if expensive) using a number of techniques. Germany and South Africa both developed a lot of expertise with some of the techniques in order to secure supplies of "oil" under...ahem....difficult circumstances. At the moment there seems to be more interest in gas to liquids rather than coal to gas or liquid.

I tend to think that it is difficult to see coal return to favour unless there is a transformation in the economics and technical issues associated with CCS and also if the economics of coal stack up in a way they don't at the moment. I do think there will be a market for gas for the foreseeable future and if CCGT plants can be built with a decent heat client then CCGT CHP can be extremely efficient however I really think that the future is more likely to be renewable supported by new generation nuclear.

[jjb1970]

A positive story on where electricity will come from:

 

http://www.offshorewind.biz/2016/03/03/seajacks-scylla-christened-in-great-yarmouth/?utm_source=emark&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-update-offshore-wind-2016-03-04&uid=55671

[lmsforever]

Power stations are being closed and now the talk is of connecting us up to Denmark so as we can keep the lights on what a country we live in.

[Arthur]

 

On Radio 4 this morning there was the briefest of interviews with a female 'scientist'. I only caught the tail end of it so I don't know who or what she was, nor even what the general interview was about, but her last statement was something on the lines of, " it's too late to build gas and nuclear generating capacity we need to look at alternative sources'. I was left wondering just what these sources are which are going to be rapidly on line delivering large amounts of power.

 

 

I don't think that it has had much national coverage but EDF are still dragging their heels over committing to progress at Hinckley Point. Like most large French companies, there is a union presence on the EDF board, and, because of the financial exposure, the union reps are asking for a three year wait before progressing further. They also want EDF to solve some of the problems with the current build EPR at Flamanville. Reuters seem to believe that the rest of the board will out vote them.

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-edf-britain-idUKKCN0VB273

[jjb1970]

You can knock a gas turbine plant out pretty quickly in terms of actual delivery and construction time, the long bit tends to be the consent and planning process, reaching FID etc.

I'm no expert on the EPR but looking on progress as an observer it seems to have had a very troubled conception and I have a couple of friends who've worked on the Finnish plant whose opinions on that plant are pretty much unprintable.

[D1059]

 I was left wondering just what these sources are which are going to be rapidly on line delivering large amounts of power.

 

 

 

The plan is probably to install an exercise bike in every household and hook it up to a genny - solves the country's power shortage and obesity issues at the same time

[Reorte]

The plan is probably to install an exercise bike in every household and hook it up to a genny - solves the country's power shortage and obesity issues at the same time

So I'll power the bike with an electric motor. Just need to crack that perpetual motion problem and I'm sorted!

[Dava]

News reports on the Hinckley Point EPR indicate increasing uncertainty over if & when it may be built, the delays & cost increases to the similar designs in #109 dont inspire confidence. UK Govt could end up being stuffed either way on this one; maybe best to think again? Just as well the remaining AGRs have been signed off to trundle on for an extra few years.

 

Dava

[jonathan452]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35930335

[Derekstuart]

They can't be seen to shut too many power stations at the same time as letting our steel plants go to ruin.

 

Without being political, I think maybe putting traffic cones all around Britain and hanging signs saying "closed until further notice" is probably not a bad thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35930335

[woodenhead]

Taking out the Steel industry would probably solve a lot of problems with power supply, unfortunately the downsides are more important and we have to maintain a steel production capability on multiple sites unless we really do want to give up completely being anything other than a country of bankers.

[lmsforever]

The lack of power generation is going to be significant soon and relying on foreign companies to build nuclear is not good but the tree huggers have the lead and will block any sensible solutions.Agree about the future of the UK we will cease production of anything and rely on the largesse of elsewhere to exist my father who was an engineer would be so angry at the state of things.

[08221]

There is talk locally of proposals to build a gas fired station on the site of the existing Rugeley power station if/when it finally closes.

[Derekstuart]

I wouldn't hold my breath. It would be 10 years of talking about considering setting up a committee to identify the possibility of the discussion (subject to authorisation by mumsnet, friends of the earth, the wi, various think tanks, rupert murdoch and yougov opinion polls) of doing everything that is possible and ruling out nothing- except doing something- until after the next election.

 

It is getting harder and harder to avoid breaking the no politics rule on this forum, but I just give up with the whole sorry state of affairs. Regrettably history will always repeat itself so instead of looking forward, just look backwards and we know what comes next.

 

Perhaps giving up modelling railways and modelling battlefields and crumbling infrastructure will be the next big thing.

[Revolution Mike]

Sorry but that is just nonsense about 10 years of delay etc for a gas-fired plant - a 1 minute look round Google will show the new gas plants opened in the last decade. That is without even including the biomass plants (or the renewable plant) - which you can easily find in DUKES (5.10).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Arthur]

Taking out the Steel industry would probably solve a lot of problems with power supply,

 

Not really, the big works like Port Talbot and Scunthorpe, those currently most threatened, generate their own power on site. They may even be net exporters of power, many were at one time.

 

Tata had only recently put in planning permission to double the generating capacity at Port Talbot from almost 100MWe to something between 170 and 225 MWe.

 

Summary of the proposal;

 

"Enhancement of existing 95.7 Mega Watt electrical (MWe) power station and installation of two new boilers (nominally 164 Mega Watt Thermal (MWth)) and two turbines (nominally 65 Mega Watt Electrical (MWe)) each. These will be housed in a new power station building with associated new pipe work connecting the new power station to the existing power station. The electrical generation capacity of the enhanced power station will be increased to between 170MWe and 225MWe (exact capacity will be confirmed when the Scoping Request is made). Some elements of the existing power station will be decommissioned once the new power station is in operation to maintain a continuous power supply. The primary fuel for the new power station will be gases which are a by-product of the steelmaking process. The new power station will provide capacity to significantly reduce the amount of these process gases that currently have to be flared."

 

Should these works lose their blast furnaces, they will then lose the gas generating capacity which would fuel the power plants.

 

 

The works most likely to survive are the smaller electric arc works like Aldwarke and Cardiff and yes, they do consume power generated elsewhere.

[jamie92208]

Not really, the big works like Port Talbot and Scunthorpe, those currently most threatened, generate their own power on site. They may even be net exporters of power, many were at one time.

 

Tata had only recently put in planning permission to double the generating capacity at Port Talbot from almost 100MWe to something between 170 and 225 MWe.

 

Summary of the proposal;

 

"Enhancement of existing 95.7 Mega Watt electrical (MWe) power station and installation of two new boilers (nominally 164 Mega Watt Thermal (MWth)) and two turbines (nominally 65 Mega Watt Electrical (MWe)) each. These will be housed in a new power station building with associated new pipe work connecting the new power station to the existing power station. The electrical generation capacity of the enhanced power station will be increased to between 170MWe and 225MWe (exact capacity will be confirmed when the Scoping Request is made). Some elements of the existing power station will be decommissioned once the new power station is in operation to maintain a continuous power supply. The primary fuel for the new power station will be gases which are a by-product of the steelmaking process. The new power station will provide capacity to significantly reduce the amount of these process gases that currently have to be flared."

 

Should these works lose their blast furnaces, they will then lose the gas generating capacity which would fuel the power plants.

 

 

The works most likely to survive are the smaller electric arc works like Aldwarke and Cardiff and yes, they do consume power generated elsewhere.

 

That's very interesting unfortunately I can't remember enough of my A level chemistry.  Is the gas mainly from the coke ovens that feed coke to the blast furnaces or does some come from the blast furnace itself.

 

Jamie

[Arthur]

Bit of both Jamie. The coke ovens produce coke oven gas (town gas) a clean fuel with a high calorific value.

 

The hot blast streaming up through the blast furnaces picks up a gas formed by the reduction of the ore (simply; a combination of oxygen from the ore and carbon from the coke fuel) which is carbon monoxide. CO, often referred to as the product of incomplete combustion, is a low value fuel, difficult to burn outside industrial facilities but as blast furnaces produce it at a rate of millions of cubic feet per hour it is wasteful not to utilize it.

 

This blast furnace gas is also very 'dirty', carrying iron and coke dust which, although largely removed in cleaning plants, limits the uses for it. Excess blast furnace gas can be seen being flared off with a lazy blue flame. It is also poisonous being responsible for many deaths at blast furnace plants over the years and it is why access to the tops of furnaces in blast is strictly controlled.

 

In the traditional, open hearth works, the cleaner coke oven gas was generally used to fire the steel making furnaces, some was sold into the national gas grid, whereas the dirty blast furnace gas was used in boilers and for firing the coke ovens and blast furnace stoves.

 

With the changeover to BOS steel making from the mid 60s onwards, the basic oxygen converters require no external fuel so these days integrated steelworks produce very large amounts of gas surplus to direct steel making purposes.

 

Port Talbot will produce a lot of both gasses, both suitable for firing boilers.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Arthur

[jonathan452]

Slightly further off topic - but related - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

 

Importing yet more steel/electricity will only add to this.

 

(Without getting too political on this forum) have the current government added one and one together?

Edited March 31, 2016 by jonathan452

[WessexEclectic]

A positive story on where electricity will come from:

 

http://www.offshorewind.biz/2016/03/03/seajacks-scylla-christened-in-great-yarmouth/?utm_source=emark&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-update-offshore-wind-2016-03-04&uid=55671

What will they say when the ship hits a fan?...

 

 

 

TAXI FOR ONE!!

 

Edit reason: Punctuashun.

Edited March 31, 2016 by WessexEclectic