Fiddlers Ferry & Rugeley Power stations to close

[royaloak]

​ I'm stocking up on candles as I have thought for a long time that we are in trouble  especialy when I see so many windmills at a stand still due to no wind.

I do enjoy watching the telly by candlelight during a power cut! 

 

I can remember doing my homework by candlelight during the blackouts of the early 1980s, it wasnt easy.

Edited December 21, 2016 by royaloak

[APOLLO]

Had to pick up my sister at Wigan NW this afternoon. Whilst waiting on the platform a I saw a red DB class 60 hauled container train coming off the L&Y Manchester line and dropping down into Wigan Wallgate. Bit of a way away so didn't get the number. Quite a long train of newish looking blue containers. Once home realtime trains revealed it as a Wilton EFW terminal to Knowlsley Freight terminal working, one of two round trips today (I presume 2 seperate trains)

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H20506/2016/12/21/advanced

 

A bit of googling brought up this very interesting document, explains all.

 

http://www.nebr.co.uk/events/Sembcorp.pdf

 

Liverpool's waste burned to make electricity in Teesside. Makes sense to someone I suppose - but why not burn it in Liverpool, especially if Fiddlers Ferry is to close ?.

 

Brit15

[Fat Controller]

Had to pick up my sister at Wigan NW this afternoon. Whilst waiting on the platform a I saw a red DB class 60 hauled container train coming off the L&Y Manchester line and dropping down into Wigan Wallgate. Bit of a way away so didn't get the number. Quite a long train of newish looking blue containers. Once home realtime trains revealed it as a Wilton EFW terminal to Knowlsley Freight terminal working, one of two round trips today (I presume 2 seperate trains)

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H20506/2016/12/21/advanced

 

A bit of googling brought up this very interesting document, explains all.

 

http://www.nebr.co.uk/events/Sembcorp.pdf

 

Liverpool's waste burned to make electricity in Teesside. Makes sense to someone I suppose - but why not burn it in Liverpool, especially if Fiddlers Ferry is to close ?.

 

Brit15

The thing that makes this plant more efficent is that it will produce large amounts of steam that can be used in the adjacent chemical plant. The electricity generated is only half the story. Given the prevailing wind directions, it's probably no bad thing the site is on the eastern seaboard:- if it were in Liverpool, Manchester would have the smoke blowing over it.

[Mark Saunders]

It is strange how Liverpools waste goes to Teesside but Manchesters only goes as far as Widnes?

 

Mark Saunders

[phil-b259]

It is strange how Liverpools waste goes to Teesside but Manchesters only goes as far as Widnes?

 

Mark Saunders

 

Not really. You need to remember that as with everything else in public life, waste management MUST be contracted out by councils as per Conservative free market thinking. As such, it may well cost the local authority involved a lot less to send the waste to a plant on the other side of the country rather than to one on its own doorstep.

 

Similarly a reliance on 'the power of the free market' when it comes to recycling is a headache as councils can only collect what there is a viable resale market for, anything that cannot be sold on for a profit ends up in landfill (and subject to the landfill tax). The takeaway cups used by Starbucks, Costa etc are a perfect example of where this approch fails - while they all say they can be recycled, the process needed to separate the plasticiser (which stops the cardboard going soggy from the drink) is expensive, complicated and there is only one plant in the UK that could do it. Due to these factors the recycling process so they all get put in landfill while the retailers still get kudos for saying their products are recyclable (technically - yes, practically no). Were environmental concerns allowed to be the driver (rather than as is far to typical in the UK) money, then councils could pay to have the cups recycled anyway - which might then create a market as it were.

Edited December 21, 2016 by phil-b259

[28XX]

This is just nonsense and the worst type of tabloid scaremongering. Apart from the sites being well-protected (by the CNC), think about the civil engineering of a nuclear reactor and then think about what it actually takes to plough through several metres of concrete, steel and lead (?) etc.

 

Post 9/11 several bodies carried out computer simulations of modern wide bodied aircraft being flown into nuclear plants - the results said they wouldn't even breach the containment structure let alone the reactor vessel.

And your response is complacent nonsense. What about an inside job? What about computer hacking? What about the myriad of supplier companies whose components or services could be got-at in any number of ways?

[black and decker boy]

If they can hack a nuclear plant then we have no hope as modern life will stop if/when they hack simpler everyday systems: no workplaces email/ internet/servers, no landline or mobile communications, no TV, no traffic signals, no water, electric or gas, no food in Tesco, no fuel at BP.

 

I still think tidal power should be exploited in the U.K. But sadly the environmental lobby see it as the enemy rather than a good thing (doh! As a certain mr H Simpson would say).

Edited December 21, 2016 by black and decker boy

[cunningduck]

And your response is complacent nonsense. What about an inside job? What about computer hacking? What about the myriad of supplier companies whose components or services could be got-at in any number of ways?

If those are your concerns the I would refer you to the literature that each Nuclear Site Operator can provide you with to demonstrate their adherence to Nuclear Site Licensing Conditions, which (amongst other things) will demonstrate how they ensure security of their site.

[Davexoc]

Not really. You need to remember that as with everything else in public life, waste management MUST be contracted out by councils as per Conservative free market thinking. As such, it may well cost the local authority involved a lot less to send the waste to a plant on the other side of the country rather than to one on its own doorstep.

 

Similarly a reliance on 'the power of the free market' when it comes to recycling is a headache as councils can only collect what there is a viable resale market for, anything that cannot be sold on for a profit ends up in landfill (and subject to the landfill tax). The takeaway cups used by Starbucks, Costa etc are a perfect example of where this approch fails - while they all say they can be recycled, the process needed to separate the plasticiser (which stops the cardboard going soggy from the drink) is expensive, complicated and there is only one plant in the UK that could do it. Due to these factors the recycling process so they all get put in landfill while the retailers still get kudos for saying their products are recyclable (technically - yes, practically no). Were environmental concerns allowed to be the driver (rather than as is far to typical in the UK) money, then councils could pay to have the cups recycled anyway - which might then create a market as it were.

The other problem is there are too many different recycling schemes, with nearly every council adopting a different strategy. Recent figures put over 40% of recyclables being contaminated and going to landfill or incineration. We need one coherent national scheme. Japan were recycling glass and metal, then burning the rest for power 20 years ago....

 

Recently the state of the art milk bottle recycling plant went bust. Why? Because by the time you've cleaned them to reuse, it costs more than producing the raw material.

There are plenty of ways to recycle materials, but please, choose an effective way, and don't make composites in the first place (hot drinks cups, juice cartons, etc.).

 

Dave

[28XX]

If those are your concerns the I would refer you to the literature that each Nuclear Site Operator can provide you with to demonstrate their adherence to Nuclear Site Licensing Conditions, which (amongst other things) will demonstrate how they ensure security of their site.

Any fool can tick boxes. They would hardly issue a document identifying the known risks, to say nothing of the unknown ones. Mandy-Rice Davies applies.

[cunningduck]

Any fool can tick boxes. They would hardly issue a document identifying the known risks, to say nothing of the unknown ones. Mandy-Rice Davies applies.

Ticking boxes and the Nuclear Regulatory framework in this country are two very different things.

[Revolution Mike]

And your response is complacent nonsense. What about an inside job? What about computer hacking? What about the myriad of supplier companies whose components or services could be got-at in any number of ways?

 

Do you have any idea (at all) as to how difficult any of those would be to actually carry out? I've seen plenty of chemical and waste plants (let alone nuclear which are much more heavily protected) where it would be incredibly difficult to do any of what you are suggesting with any sort of meaningful impact.

 

If you want to be concerned about nuclear there are more than enough reasons to be concerned by legacy clean up, decommissioning, waste streatment/storage, cost, AREVA (tongue in cheek slightly) etc than inventing stories to scare people with.

[jjb1970]

I don't think that there is much doubt that verifying the performance of software based control systems for safety critical systems is rather challenging and a major cost however that is a challenge faced by almost every industry in the modern world. Airliners, chemical process plants, trains, nuclear plants, offshore oil and gas, ships and lots more, almost all modern systems are reliant on software based control systems. Until not that long ago there was segregation between control and safety systems and going back further there was still hard wired trips and protection for certain functions but nowadays it is increasingly the norm to have integrated control and protection systems with limited or no hard wired back up. My worry is not really malicious intent and cyber attack, my worry is hidden faults which will only become apparent following a system failure or the magic service engineers lap top with patches and updates. That said, whilst these issues are real, we should keep a sense of perspective and modern control and safety systems have an excellent service record.

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/uk-hits-clean-energy-milestone-50-of-electricity-from-low-carbon-sources

 

Good news!

[phil-b259]

The other problem is there are too many different recycling schemes, with nearly every council adopting a different strategy. Recent figures put over 40% of recyclables being contaminated and going to landfill or incineration. We need one coherent national scheme. Japan were recycling glass and metal, then burning the rest for power 20 years ago....

 

Recently the state of the art milk bottle recycling plant went bust. Why? Because by the time you've cleaned them to reuse, it costs more than producing the raw material.

There are plenty of ways to recycle materials, but please, choose an effective way, and don't make composites in the first place (hot drinks cups, juice cartons, etc.).

 

Dave

 

Which could be addressed by the domestic tax system and regulation of business to focus on specific standards / procedures (especially for perishables like milk containers). However that goes against the 'Power of the free market' principles so beloved by a certain political party who still cannot get their heads round the fact that money is not the be all and end all of everything - and some sectors / aims DO need state intervention / control to obtain the best output for society / the environment / the long term needs of the country.

[locoholic]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/uk-hits-clean-energy-milestone-50-of-electricity-from-low-carbon-sources

Good news!

It's not good news if you count the wood-burning lark at Drax.

[Davexoc]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/uk-hits-clean-energy-milestone-50-of-electricity-from-low-carbon-sources

 

Good news!

You've got to love the optimism, 3rd Q when the sun was out and it was mild. Now look at the real picture on a cold foggy evening in December, and that 3.6% for coal is running at 18.8% because total low carbon doesn't even make 20% of demand with wind a mere 1.7%.

Someone worked out that if you built an on-shore wind farm to replace Drax, it would be 1000 sq.km. Basically filling an area just south of York to just north of Doncaster, centred on Drax itself. He did go on to work out how much space was required to grow the required Biomass rather than importing it, I don't think we had much space left to grow foodstuffs....

 

Dave

[Ken.W]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/uk-hits-clean-energy-milestone-50-of-electricity-from-low-carbon-sources

 

Good news!

 

"Low carbon power now accounts for 50% of UK electricity"

 

Yeah, that's great news, with 'renewables' largely from solar and wind...

It's now winter and peak load comes after dark, and there's little wind at present,

oh, hang on a minute, why's the light going dim?

 

Interesting to note, from the graph in linked article, the largest increase has been in (carbon) Gas production, virtually directing replicating the fall in coal

oh, hang on a minute, what was coal composed of?

 

Also interesting to note, from the same graph, what increase there was in 'clean' energy was largely from nuclear, with that from 'renewables' being negligible.

 

Reminds me much like the famous quote;

"there's lies, d*mned lies, and statistics"

[Ken.W]

 He did go on to work out how much space was required to grow the required Biomass rather than importing it, I don't think we had much space left to grow foodstuffs....

 

No, the space left over will have been taken up by solar farms

[royaloak]

Just had a look and our highest energy producer is nuclear (28.87%), gas (28.49%), wind (15.56%), coal (12.75%), biomass (7.38%), the rest is made up with a bit of hydro and imports (7.something%)

 

So it looks like nuclear is the future!

Strange that coal is so high at 02:30 in the morning, I would have expected that to be well down at this time.

[jamie92208]

Just had a look and our highest energy producer is nuclear (28.87%), gas (28.49%), wind (15.56%), coal (12.75%), biomass (7.38%), the rest is made up with a bit of hydro and imports (7.something%)

 

So it looks like nuclear is the future!

Strange that coal is so high at 02:30 in the morning, I would have expected that to be well down at this time.

Probably because coal and nuclear are both suited to generating for the base load running at a steady output.

 

Jamie

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/29/christmas-day-2016-renewable-energy-uk-green-electricity

[jamie92208]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/29/christmas-day-2016-renewable-energy-uk-green-electricity

 

It makes interesting reading but doesn't detail how much was from such things as wind and solar and how much was Drax's wood burners.   It seems to be a publicity release by Drax which appears to include their several 1000 megawatts of woodchip power.

 

Jamie

[Davexoc]

It makes interesting reading but doesn't detail how much was from such things as wind and solar and how much was Drax's wood burners.   It seems to be a publicity release by Drax which appears to include their several 1000 megawatts of woodchip power.

 

Jamie

Typically wind is up to 15%, biomass about 5% and nuclear 20%. If the sun is out that could be about 5% or more for a few hours. But as they are looking at the lowest daily demand of the year it is all pretty irrelevant because the coal and gas stations have been wound down. If the demand was only around 30GW as compared to a maximum of 60GW, then the 40% claim is only 20% when it matters.

 

Dave

[jonathan452]

I do enjoy watching the telly by candlelight during a power cut! 

 

I can remember doing my homework by candlelight during the blackouts of the early 1980s, it wasnt easy.

I trust you really mean the early 1970's? (Particularly the winter of 1973/74.)

 

With Ted Heath's three day week and all of that.

 

Was gutted when the children's TV got canned due to a black out.

 

Remembering how the local paper produced a rota schedule of the envisaged low, medium and high risk areas for black outs in 'not so sunny' St.Albans on a week by week basis. And how most of the chain stores were rigged up with temporary lighting fed from emergency generators.