RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 24, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2016 evening everyone just a quick and possibly a stupid question! We all know what happened with the great train robbery, the robbers hooked up a battery to the lights to change the distant and home signal to yellow and red, now this might seem a stupid question but would the bell of rang in the cab because the driver had a clear route because the signals were in fact green?? I'm guessing just hooking a battery to the yellow/red light would not if caused the aws horn to go off? Sorry if this has been asked and covered before. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 24, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2016 If the section of line was fitted with AWS, you are correct. But the driver should class it as a wrong side failure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Not sure if the line was AWS fitted at the time, but as has been mentioned if you get a bell instead of a horn you would stop and report it. If you were going too fast to stop at that signal you would stop at the next one to report it. If he got a bell at that one as well he would be thinking it was a fault with the AWS equipment on the locomotive rather than the magnet on the track. The robbers could have disconnected the electro magnet part of the AWS to give a horn instead of a bell, but if they did I have never seen any mention of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 25, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 Thanks for the replies fellas. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The green lights continued to shine. They were obscured by putting a leather gloves over the lamp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 25, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 The green lights continued to shine. They were obscured by putting a leather gloves over the lamp. So a bell would of sounded in the cab rather than the aws horn. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 Was looking for AWS implementation dates but the best I can come up with is approval in 1956 http://www.railsigns.uk/info/aws1/aws1.html And as usual the community on here leads the way in meaningful explanations http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97877-functions-of-aws-and-tpws/ But we still don't know if AWS was fitted on that part of the WCML in the early 60s, although given that the Harrow and Wealdstone smash was a major driver it would look surprising if not.... Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 As a general rule the AWS would fail safe. I believe that the signal actually failed even though the robbers tried to alter the aspect without warning the controlling box, there are reports of a signal failure sounding in Leighton Buzzard box (the controlling box - The box at Sears Crossing was replaced by IBS in 1961), and I would expect the AWS, if it were provided, to sound the warning. Saying that ... This was the time of the electrification and resignalling, I would guess it was pretty chaotic and things weren't always quite 100% perfect - being the good railwayman he was, driver Mills saw a red and stopped his train at it, the AWS probably didn't even register as such - there was a red and he needed to stop, despite having passed the distant at clear running at (probably) 80/90 mph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 And, with that signal being an IBS he would have made moves to get on the phone and apply rule 55. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I understood that AWS was fitted to distant signals (like the GWR ATC system) to repeat the signal's indication in the cab and apply the brakes. Even if AWS were installed lighting the red lamp would not have triggered it. ATWS does the same for home signals, but is a later application and would not have been present in 1963. Maybe I've got it wrong, in which case please correct me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I don't know what type of signal it was, but suspect it was a multi-aspect type, which would trigger an AWS warning with all aspects except green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 But the system is ' showing' clear(green) and that's what the AWS gets its feed from Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2016 But would locally feeding the aspect operate the detection relays and therefore cause a fault condition with the AWS, so that it would sound a horn? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Beast has confirmed that it was an IB signal controlled from a local box so the multiple-aspect signalling that was part of the electrification project was not yet in use (even though pictures from the time show most or all of the OLE itself in place). Therefore the signal was a stop signal in an Absolute Block area and at that time would have been unlikely to have had AWS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 The distant may have had it though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 From a signalling circuitry design point of view, false-feeding the lamp would not alter any other functions of the circuit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 25, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 Thanks for all the replies chaps. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 I don't know what type of signal it was, but suspect it was a multi-aspect type, which would trigger an AWS warning with all aspects except green. The IB Homes were 2 aspect (red/green) signals, I presume the distants were also 2 aspect (yellow/green but can't recall taking much notice of them from passing trains). Something niggling in my mind suggest the IB signals weren't plated as IBs - anybody know for certain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The story I heard was the green was covered with a red jersey. This was related at the time in quite a few places. It wasn't a perfect red, but the train stopped because of the irregular light. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 25, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2016 I came across this before might be of interest. http://m.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/video-great-train-robbery-could-have-been-avoided-1-5935129 Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The IB Homes were 2 aspect (red/green) signals, I presume the distants were also 2 aspect (yellow/green but can't recall taking much notice of them from passing trains). Something niggling in my mind suggest the IB signals weren't plated as IBs - anybody know for certain? Mike, for some reason I'm unable to post it, but I have a photo taken from the IBS Home signal a few hours after daybreak on 8th August '63, the back of the signal head is open and it is clearly a two aspect type. I found it by googling images of the robbery so you may be able to find it. Gang member John Cordrey left the battery behind on the signals safety platform so you can easily see how it was rigged up. Regarding the state of play with the OLE at the time of the robbery, at Sears Crossing the gantries were in place along with some of the 'dropper' arms but no wires were present. (I think I need to change my settings to allow me to link images directly from my Photobucket account!). ***managed to make it work!*** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Another image showing the gantry... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 This view was taken from the overbridge seen in the distance in the first photo I posted, looking south, left to right : Up Slow, Down Slow, Up Fast, Down Fast. Driver Mills stopped 1M44 at the signal on the Up Fast, it was whilst stopped here that 'Buster' Edwards and one other gang member entered his cab while two other members uncoupled the set between the second and third vehicles. From this point, Driver Mills was forced into moving the front portion down to Bridego Bridge... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Apologies for only posting one photo at a time folks... the view from the same bridge but taken over by the Down Fast... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Later in the day at Bridego Bridge... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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