IoW light rail conversion proposed

[rodent279]

I can't remember where I read about the 2MT proposal possibly backtrack .

When the IoWSR got a 2MT I wondered whether that proposal was behind it .

Would be good to see one in blue for a season!

Worth it just to see the bulging eyes and bursting blood vessels on the faces of the purists, and read the indignant letters in the railway press!

[009 micro modeller]

Better than privatisation liveries such as an A4 in Virgin colours.

Didn't somebody have that on their layout, based on the idea of using the livery of the TOC that sponsored the restoration or something? I think they had a South West Trains liveried Bulleid Pacific as well.

[John M Upton]

Nictum Boordrum or similar spelling if I recall had the Virgin A4 ansd SWT BoB.

[Zomboid]

A4s and pendolinos aren't that dissimilar in shape, so the Virgin colours suit them pretty well IMO.

 

But then I also quite like the VoR locos in blue (though the carriages also being all over blue didn't make sure a particularly pleasing whole train). A blue 2MT could probably look quite good if it were applied with a bit of thought. Fundamentally it's not that really different from BR green.

[PhilJ W]

Didn't somebody have that on their layout, based on the idea of using the livery of the TOC that sponsored the restoration or something? I think they had a South West Trains liveried Bulleid Pacific as well.

Photoshopped I believe.

[sem34090]

There are photoshopped ones online, but the layout John refers to goes around the Southern exhibition circuit (Indeed I have seen Johm viewing said layout!). If I recall correctly it's from Fareham MRC and is entitled 'Nictun Borrud' (Pronounced Nicked & Borrowed...).

 

As for 2MT's in blue... no. I did like the mock up the IOWSR did with one of the cast lions (AC Electric style) on the tankside of the first one to steam though, that looked really smart and was apparently what BR was planning to do when considering shipping 2MT's from Weymouth (IIRC) over to the Island. I think that is why the IOWSR justified having them as they were locos actually earmarked for shipping until LT produced an offer that was a bit more attractive.

 

Just think... IOW stock has a lifespan of 70-80 years or more, so we could definitely still be seeing 2MT's in service on the island line had that proposal been carried out. One must remember that they are newer than the '1938' stock by a considerable amount. The newest 1938 stock unit to have run on the island is 483006 (Built July 1940 - only one unit is left in operation that dates from before that year, this being 483004 of 1939) is 11 years older than 41298 and 11 years, 11 months older than 41313, which I believe makes the two Ivatts the most modern passenger motive power on the island ever!

 

W24 was 34 years old, the last O2's to be transferred at least 54 years old, the LBSCR E1's were 58/9 years old, the 'Standard' (23) stock 44 years old and the '38 stock 51 years old upon arrival. Does this mean that the 67/8 year old 2MT's are now at their prime for transfer to frontline service on the Island?!!

 

So, the '38 stock is 78-79 years old this year, the Ivatts are 67-68 years old this year. After the '38 stock, the next-newest passenger vehicle on the island is 6359, an 8-Compartment Bogie Composite built to an LBSCR design in 1924, so that's 94 years old this year. This made me wonder - which would regular travellers prefer? A modern vehicle built with current standards of passenger comfort (A breadboard nailed to an ironing board with moquette glued on top to give the impression of a cushion), the 1938 stock (Bouncy, but better than modern stock for actual seat comfort. The bounciness mainly comes from the track, so I'm told, as '38 stock is/was renowned for smooth riding) or pre-grouping designed coaches (The most comfortable stock I've ever travelled in!)?

 

I'd probably say that regular travellers would genuinely prefer the latter option! Had I the choice of a 377 seat (Slightly cushioned ironing/breadboard combination), a 158/9 seat (Fairly well padded), a 313 seat (Ironing board/breadboard combination) or an LBSCR Third I know which I'd choose for my journeys along the coast...

[rodent279]

Now there's a thought-a blue 2MT with a cast aluminium lion or cast arrows, and cast aluminium numbers too. Add in a small yellow end on the bunker, and a yellow front buffer beam, that would be smart!

 

Going back to the VoR, didn't they have cast aluminium or cast brass BR arrows?

Edited May 13, 2018 by rodent279

[rodent279]

A4s and pendolinos aren't that dissimilar in shape, so the Virgin colours suit them pretty well IMO.

 

But then I also quite like the VoR locos in blue (though the carriages also being all over blue didn't make sure a particularly pleasing whole train). A blue 2MT could probably look quite good if it were applied with a bit of thought. Fundamentally it's not that really different from BR green.

Let's be really outrageous. How about an A4 in ICE white & red, or first gen TGV orange & white?

 

Actually, Thalys dark maroon & grey might suit them.

[rodent279]

Going back on topic, for me the best solution would appear to be some sort of light rail conversion. Whether that would be using the existing 3rd rail infrastructure, new ohl, battery hybrids or some combo of all 3 I don't know.

 

Appealing though the ideas of blue 2MT's, Mk1's, 1938 tube stock etc are, I don't think they can really be serious propositions if the Island Line is to remain a prominent part of the transport infrastructure, and not turn into a theme park, or an extension of the IoWSR.

 

You'll never please everyone-just don't let it descend into a Bristol Metrobus style farce.

[009 micro modeller]

Photoshopped I believe.

No I saw it at an exhibition in Basingstoke.

 

Regarding the 2MTs, I think these were proposed before the steam ban, so unless they became a tourist railway exception to this like the VoR then they would probably have been withdrawn anyway soon afterwards.

Edited May 13, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[PhilJ W]

Going back on topic, for me the best solution would appear to be some sort of light rail conversion. Whether that would be using the existing 3rd rail infrastructure, new ohl, battery hybrids or some combo of all 3 I don't know.

 

Appealing though the ideas of blue 2MT's, Mk1's, 1938 tube stock etc are, I don't think they can really be serious propositions if the Island Line is to remain a prominent part of the transport infrastructure, and not turn into a theme park, or an extension of the IoWSR.

 

You'll never please everyone-just don't let it descend into a Bristol Metrobus style farce.

The first generation Manchester Metrolink cars are being scrapped at the moment, another lost opportunity?

[russ p]

When you think back to the mid 60s it's surprising that some DMUs were not given cut down bodies as there were a lot of surplus ones and that would have probably been cheaper than electrification

[Joseph_Pestell]

The first generation Manchester Metrolink cars are being scrapped at the moment, another lost opportunity?

 

I did not know that. They would be perfect for the IoW so long as re-routed above ground from St John's to Esplanade.

[009 micro modeller]

I did not know that. They would be perfect for the IoW so long as re-routed above ground from St John's to Esplanade.

How practical is this given the layout of roads in Ryde?

[John_Hughes]

BR blue was - in my opinion - the only livery the VoR engines have ever worn which looked absolutely hideous on them; indeed, I don't think it ever suited anything at all.

 

But then, I don't think that blue suited the A4s either, though they looked really smart in lined green.

 

Just goes to show you can't please everybody, I suppose!

[PhilJ W]

I did not know that. They would be perfect for the IoW so long as re-routed above ground from St John's to Esplanade.

 

 

How practical is this given the layout of roads in Ryde?

Extra space could be created by filling in the tunnels and their approaches and utilising street running.

[Joseph_Pestell]

How practical is this given the layout of roads in Ryde?

 

As you rightly point out, it's not easy in Ryde with a lot of narrow streets around St John's.

 

But by taking the line from St John's in a north-easterly direction, there is a route possible to get to the Espanade with a turn there westwards to regain the existing route at Esplanade station.

[IWCR]

Prior  to  the  railway  pier  being  built  along  with  the  tunnel  and  line  to  St  Johns  the Pier  Tram  did  run  through  the  streets  to  St  Johns.  This  involved  some  nasty  curves  coming  off  the  esplanade  and  it  went  right  through  the  ground  floor  of  one  of  the  Victorian  villas,  an  opening  literally  one  room  wide  &  high.  This  property  is  still  there  though  the  tram  hole  has  long  since  been  returned  to  a  room.  Ryde  is  very  much  built  on  a  hill  and  any  rail / tram  route  is  forced  along  the  valley  of  Monkton  Meade  brook.

 

Pete   

[Geep7]

British Rail-owned Seaspeed operated hydrofoils between Portsmouth Harbour and Ryde Pier Head and Cowes during a brief period in the 1970s(?).

I'm sure I used it a couple of times using my LT priv card. But was it a hydrofoil or a type of hovercraft?

 

It was a hovercraft (an SRN6) that ran from a pontoon at Portsmouth Harbour to Cowes.

[009 micro modeller]

Prior to the railway pier being built along with the tunnel and line to St Johns the Pier Tram did run through the streets to St Johns. This involved some nasty curves coming off the esplanade and it went right through the ground floor of one of the Victorian villas, an opening literally one room wide & high. This property is still there though the tram hole has long since been returned to a room. Ryde is very much built on a hill and any rail / tram route is forced along the valley of Monkton Meade brook.

 

Pete

This sounds interesting - are there any pictures of the tram going through the house? I'm not sure it is a precedent for making it work today as modern trams may need a larger curve radius. Randomly reminded me of this: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/In_the_Middle_of_the_House.htm

[IWCR]

I  am  not  aware  of  any  photos  of  a  tram  going  through  the  house,  there  is  one  of  it  without  a  tram  but  with  the  track  either  still  in  place  or  recently  lifted,  (linear  marks  where  the  rails  would  have  been).

It  wouldnt  have  been  only  trams  using  this  as  the  tramway  had  sidings  on  the  quays at  Ryde  and  wagons  from  the  railways at  St  Johns  were  horse  hauled  to  these.

 

Pete

[Mike Storey]

As you rightly point out, it's not easy in Ryde with a lot of narrow streets around St John's.

 

But by taking the line from St John's in a north-easterly direction, there is a route possible to get to the Espanade with a turn there westwards to regain the existing route at Esplanade station.

 

That would be a good solution, but I have studied and studied the contours on that general route and cannot see any way of doing this without demolishing an awful lot of houses and creating a number of level crossings (or yet more tunnels and some steep gradients). Perhaps I have not looked at it properly. Do you have a more detailed route in mind?

[sem34090]

Not the most reliable, but I'll have a play around with Ryde in train simulator and show you all what various proposals would look like. As things are normally in the right place it may be useful to see what would need demolishing.

[sem34090]

According to TS, it would require the following to be removed if one were to route a tram from one end of the tunnel to the other:

1 footbridge

1 fence

Ryde Bus Station

2 Trees

1 Payphone

1 Garden & Wall

1 Roundabout

1 House

 

There are some pretty mean gradients and curves in there, but nothing that hasn't been seen on tramways in the past.

[PhilJ W]

Does the frequency of service require double track? If a single track is all that is needed it should be easier to fit it in and with traffic signals set to give the trams priority it should work.