IoW light rail conversion proposed

[Coryton]

The great tragedy is that immediately on joining the EU, the UK Goverment declared the Isle of Wight was not an 'Island' and didn't suffer from any inconvenience as to travel or connection, thereby robbing us of monies available for island communities.  The same excuse is now being used to close facilities at our local hospital forcing very ill patients to travel to the mainland, to hospitals that do not understand that it can sometimes take hours to travel ten miles in a straight line.

 

The Aberdeen phone book includes (or at least used to include) Shetland.

 

You had to be careful to check the postcode when looking for a plumber.

[IWCR]

Re:  Free  OAP  travel

 

This  is  for  the  buses,  not  Island  Line.

Though  Im  pretty  sure  when  first  introduced  it  did  also  include  the  trains,  if  so  yes  there  would  have  been  a  reduction  in  numbers  traveling  when  the concession  ceased. 

Another   cause  of  reduced  numbers  was  a  prolonged  closure  at  the  beginning  of  2014  following  flood  damage.

Examination  of  the  passenger  numbers and  revenue  declared  gives  a  very  low  average  journey  price,  indeed  cheaper than  the  cheapest  fare  which  would  suggest  something  wrong  with the statistics,  I  suspect  the  revenue  from  tickets  sold  on  the  mainland  has  not  been  fully  credited.

 

Pete

[t8hants]

I  suspect  the  revenue  from  tickets  sold  on  the  mainland  has  not  been  fully  credited.- I think that was the excuse Dr Beeching used?

[roythebus]

Any proposals for re-opening other island lines would be rather daft. no end of schemes have been mooted and studied over the years, all would cost a fortune, all would need heavy subsidies.

 

the last proposal I am aware of was by the late Fred "Kingdom" Ward with others who proposed a "new tramway" on the island using the old track beds and secondhand Duwag trams from Germany. To repeat a quote from the book "the Great Isle of Wight Train Robbery"(regarding the Sadler Vectrail scheme of the late 1960s and the appeal for funding), "the Islanders were asked to put their hands in their pockets; they did and they stayed there."

 

But then Fred was "special".  

Edited May 17, 2018 by roythebus

[Mike Storey]

Re:  Free  OAP  travel

 

This  is  for  the  buses,  not  Island  Line.

Though  Im  pretty  sure  when  first  introduced  it  did  also  include  the  trains,  if  so  yes  there  would  have  been  a  reduction  in  numbers  traveling  when  the concession  ceased. 

Another   cause  of  reduced  numbers  was  a  prolonged  closure  at  the  beginning  of  2014  following  flood  damage.

Examination  of  the  passenger  numbers and  revenue  declared  gives  a  very  low  average  journey  price,  indeed  cheaper than  the  cheapest  fare  which  would  suggest  something  wrong  with the statistics,  I  suspect  the  revenue  from  tickets  sold  on  the  mainland  has  not  been  fully  credited.

 

Pete

 

Very much doubt the stats in terms of revenue allocated are significantly wrong (although the fairness of that allocation may well be).

 

If the majority of users were from mainland origins, the add-on element within LENNON (the national railway accounting system) which analyses passenger kilometres by route, based on ticket sales and planned train operation and the ORCATS system (which allocates revenue to operators based on a mathematical model), will have allocated a lower amount per trip on the IOW than the lowest point-to-point fares within the Island. This is true across the whole network, and was originally established under BR, using their CAPRI and ORCATS combination, under the selective pricing model, which moved away from fares (as opposed to charges or revenue share) calculated on a mileage basis.

 

The theory is based on the opportunity theory. That says that if a person could not travel by rail from, e.g. London, to any destination, they probably would not have travelled by rail for the final segment of that journey. If one accepts that this is true in the vast majority of cases, then a strict allocation on total mileage is applicable, for which the fare calculation tapers according to distance on most routes, and that, if there is more than one operator on any part of that route (in this case Thameslink or its subsequent versions, and in smaller parts, Southern and Great Western) then they too receive an allocation of that income, so that the final allocation of that ticket income to Island Line will be less than the market rate charged for a ticket from, say, Ryde to Shanklin.

 

It may not seem to fair to the IOW, as it is probably true that many people who drive to Portsmouth, go to Portsmouth & Southsea (where is there is plenty of parking nearby, unlike Portsmouth Harbour), buy their ticket from there to somewhere on the Island including the ferry, catch the train to Portsmouth Harbour, then go by foot on the ferry, and will use the train when on the Island, than is presumed by that theory, but it is a nationally agreed allocation system with which any data must conform (unless the IOW can make a case for a different calculation, which they have not, to my knowledge). Even the short journey from Portsmouth & Southsea to Harbour will have to be shared with two other TOC's. It does suggest that a completely independent operation on the Island, free of ATOC agreements, could demand a more realistic add-on amount for through fares, and that would better reflect the true revenue position. The converse argument is that this would never be enough to support major investment, and continuing subsidy, so that it is better to remain under national agreements and thus protection. What DfT has done is to demand that SWR produce entirely separate P&L accounts for the IOW, whilst still basing their income on national rules. Something here is not quite right, but I doubt, at present, there is sufficient extra (provable) potential to argue the point, without risking the ongoing nationally funded subsidy. Tricky.

 

Before anyone blames that on the decisions made by Beeching, these systems did not exist then. That is a whole other matter.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Mike Storey

[mdvle]

Re:  Free  OAP  travel

 

This  is  for  the  buses,  not  Island  Line.

Though  Im  pretty  sure  when  first  introduced  it  did  also  include  the  trains,  if  so  yes  there  would  have  been  a  reduction  in  numbers  traveling  when  the concession  ceased.

 

Just for completeness, Island Line is available for a limited number of OAP passes, specifically those issued for a disability.  It can be found in the FAQ here https://www.iwight.com/Residents/Transport-Parking-and-Streets/English-National-Concessionary-Bus-Fare-Scheme/Faqs

[Titan]

I can't get this idea out of my head of ripping it all up and relaying it as a 15 inch gauge railway like the Bure Valley. A six coach train can't be far off a two car tube train for capacity, if not exceeding it. Probably bonkers, and it would hurt revenue of the IoW steam railway no doubt...

[Zomboid]

Not sure how useful it would be to people getting off the boat with any kind of luggage.

Though changing it to a larger narrow gauge might be more feasible. Something like the Zillertalbahn (760mm, basically 2'6") might be a more workable size. There should be plenty of rolling stock around the world that would be useable and smaller than standard gauge. Fantasy island stuff, of course...

[Trevellan]

 

Souhern  Vectis....  have  withdrawn  many  local  routes  on  the  Island,  even  ones  heavily  used,  the  problem  being  much of  the  ridership  is  on  free  OAP  passes,  many  of  the  village  routes  were  virtually  all  OAP  ridership,  these are  paid  for  by  the  IWCC  at  a  rate  which  Southern  Vectis  finds  is  unsustainable.

 

I would be very interested to learn the background behind your comment. The current Southern Vectis network is now more than a decade old and very stable. It is also comprehensive, with frequencies that compare favourably with larger conurbations, let alone a small island. Certain routes do not pay their way and are cross-subsidised by the viable parts of the network, yet this is not always understood by critics. I am not aware of any "heavily used" routes being withdrawn in the last 10-12 years.

 

Incidentally, the latest generation of electronic ticket machines do record concessionary passes and this is a significant figure.

[Titan]

Not sure how useful it would be to people getting off the boat with any kind of luggage.

Though changing it to a larger narrow gauge might be more feasible. Something like the Zillertalbahn (760mm, basically 2'6") might be a more workable size. There should be plenty of rolling stock around the world that would be useable and smaller than standard gauge. Fantasy island stuff, of course...

 

I am sure that there could be a luggage van, with guards compartment, wheelchair facilities etc. It would also mean that you would have the advantage of the luggage being under the watchful eye of the guard for security.

[rodent279]

Not sure how useful it would be to people getting off the boat with any kind of luggage.

Though changing it to a larger narrow gauge might be more feasible. Something like the Zillertalbahn (760mm, basically 2'6") might be a more workable size. There should be plenty of rolling stock around the world that would be useable and smaller than standard gauge. Fantasy island stuff, of course...

Why? I can't see why a 760mm railway, electrified at say 1500v DC overhead, using stock similar to the BOB in Switzerland, couldn't work. BOB is metre gauge, though, and even that might be a bit tight in the tunnel.

Edited May 18, 2018 by rodent279

[rodent279]

I am sure that there could be a luggage van, with guards compartment, wheelchair facilities etc. It would also mean that you would have the advantage of the luggage being under the watchful eye of the guard for security.

You mean like these? These are standard gauge, but the BOB has some metre gauge versions, I'm sure.

Edited May 18, 2018 by rodent279

[Zomboid]

Why? I can't see why a 760mm railway, electrified at say 1500v DC overhead, using stock similar to the BOB in Switzerland, couldn't work. BOB is metre gauge, though, and even that might be a bit tight in the tunnel.

It's fantasy because no one is going to pay for a gauge change. Sadly - a nice mixed gauge bit with the IWSR would be fun for the likes of us...

[009 micro modeller]

There is a sort of precedent for conversion to narrow gauge - the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley Railway was at one stage going to be revived with imported metre gauge stock to get round the reduced loading gauge there. This was a heritage railway project though, not part of the national network - even as a narrow gauge enthusiast I'm not sure it would be the best solution on the IoW.

[Zomboid]

There are several heritage railways running narrow gauge on former standard gauge routes - Welsh Highland, Bala lake & Brecon all immediately come to mind, and there's the one in Scotland which ran a bus replacement train service recently. Many others too, no doubt.

 

As a potential source of second hand smaller than normal rolling stock, European narrow gauge ought to offer a wider selection than standard gauge does, but clearly with other compromises, not least the need to replace all the track...

[sem34090]

Well, I entered my suggestions, so we'll see where this leads (if it leads anywhere!):

 

 

Thank you for your Email of 15 May 2018.

Your comments regarding The Island Line have been noted and I appreciate the time and trouble you have taken to contact us about this.

Whilst I cannot guarantee your suggestions will be implemented, they have been logged and forwarded to the relevant manager for their attention.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Kind regards

Customer Service Centre Advisor

[IWCR]

Island  lines  passenger  numbers  are  given  as  around  1.3 million  in  2014/5,  income  is  given  as  around  £1 million.

This  gives an  average  income  per  passenger  of  77p

Something  not  right here.

 

Pete

[IWCR]

Re  Southern  Vectis

 

The  main  loss  of services  was  more  than  10  years  ago  and  yes  the  main  routes  do  have  a  better  service  than  ever.

However  even  in  the  last  few  years  several  villages have  lost  their  services.

 

Alverstone

Havenstreet

Newbridge

Newchurch

Newtown

Porchfield

Thorness

Yafford

 

Several  remaining  routes  were  only  kept  open  by  being  directly  subsidised  by  County  and  Parish  councils

These  includes  routes  such  as  Gurnard  which  was  busy  but  virtually  all on  Bus  Passes

 

Where  I  live  there  was  a  useful  half  hourly  bus  service  past  my  house,  now  nothing.   Nearest  bus  route  now  over  half  a  mile  away.

 

Wroxall  where  I  lived  before  was  served  by  the  rail  replacement  bus  from  Shanklin  station  to  Ventnor,  again  useful.

This  is  now  long  gone,  Wroxall  still  retains  a  bus  service  but  now  Shanklin  can  only  be  reached  via  Ventnor.   

 

Southern  Vectis  probably  is  a  good  company  compared  to  some  others  however  they  are  far  from  a  wonderful  comprehensive  local  transport  system.

 

Pete

[Mike Storey]

Island  lines  passenger  numbers  are  given  as  around  1.3 million  in  2014/5,  income  is  given  as  around  £1 million.

This  gives an  average  income  per  passenger  of  77p

Something  not  right here.

 

Pete

 

Please see my post #306, for at least a partial explanation of this. Someone has also pointed out that there is a free travel facility for certain classifications of passenger, and there of course other discounted fares. Additionally someone on here suggested that the vast majority of journeys now are just from the Pier Head to the Esplanade (current return fare £2.10), so assuming passenger numbers quoted are the usual single journey equivalents, and that fares were slightly lower in 2014, a return fare equivalent of 77p x 2 = £1.54, for the LENNON add-on. Add in a suspected high level of fare evasion/inability to find anyone to pay, it would support the reasoning I gave above.

[rodent279]

There are several heritage railways running narrow gauge on former standard gauge routes - Welsh Highland, Bala lake & Brecon all immediately come to mind, and there's the one in Scotland which ran a bus replacement train service recently. Many others too, no doubt.

 

As a potential source of second hand smaller than normal rolling stock, European narrow gauge ought to offer a wider selection than standard gauge does, but clearly with other compromises, not least the need to replace all the track...

 

Agree, you would need to replace the track, and it's probably well past it now anyway-but could you not do it on the cheap by simply moving one set of rails in, a la the Broad Gauge conversion in  1892? Obviously you might need to renew s&c work on places-but on plain line you could surely get away with that, if it's in sound enough condition in the first place?

[Joseph_Pestell]

You mean like these? These are standard gauge, but the BOB has some metre gauge versions, I'm sure.

 

The nearer one is standard gauge. The second one is metre-gauge Brunig Bahn.

 

But even with metre gauge, catenary is going to be a problem through the tunnel.

 

As, it seems, much of the track on IoW needs serious maintenance, there could actually be a cost saving by conversion to a narrow gauge.

[phil-b259]

 

Where  I  live  there  was  a  useful  half  hourly  bus  service  past  my  house,  now  nothing.   Nearest  bus  route  now  over  half  a  mile  away.

 

 

And?

 

I bet there are a large number of towns, let alone villages in England where the residents have to walk considerably more than half a mile to a bus stop.

 

From what I can gather the IOW bus service (coverage and frequency) is considerably better than the rest of the UK (outside large urban conurbations) so it sounds a bit petty to complain about the things you cite.

[PaulCheffus]

I bet there are a large number of towns, let alone villages in England where the residents have to walk considerably more than half a mile to a bus stop.

 

Hi

 

5 miles in my case.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[rodent279]

The nearer one is standard gauge. The second one is metre-gauge Brunig Bahn.

 

But even with metre gauge, catenary is going to be a problem through the tunnel.

 

As, it seems, much of the track on IoW needs serious maintenance, there could actually be a cost saving by conversion to a narrow gauge.

 

Apologies, I just assumed both standard gauge from the SBB-CFF on the side of the right hand one.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Apologies, I just assumed both standard gauge from the SBB-CFF on the side of the right hand one.

 

Easy mistake to make. The Brunig Bahn is SBBCFF (or was then anyway) and used the same livery. Interlaken-Ost is where one changed trains to get onto the metre-gauge northwards to Zurich.