IoW light rail conversion proposed

[John M Upton]

I was told that the Island Line tracks are running on the former tramway beds on the pier and the vacant ones are the old mainline ones?

[Mike Storey]

I was told that the Island Line tracks are running on the former tramway beds on the pier and the vacant ones are the old mainline ones?

 

I don't think you have been told correctly about that? The heavy rail tracks are right were they used to be, on the east side, and the old tram link route in the middle is just girders now, with the pedestrian walkway on the west side? At least that is how it was last time I was there, about two years ago (visiting cousins in Bembridge and Cowes). I remember them being that way around when I lived in George Street, Ryde, when a wee nipper, and the tram was still working, and was our preferred mode when catching the ferry to the mainland.

[009 micro modeller]

The old tramway route is the vacant one. It doesn't curve round like the railway does. Having previously read about the the tramway I can't remember how it managed to keep going in competition with the main line.

[PhilJ W]

How about Openstreetmap?

 

Ryde is here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/11398930#map=17/50.73176/-1.15537

Studying the map has given me an idea. Firstly the line would need to be converted to light rail as my suggestion includes some sharp curves and some fairly steep inclines. Firstly the tunnels would not be used instead the line would continue along the Esplanade on a rising viaduct to just past Peter Pan's Funfair where it would turn south and follow the line of Cornwall Street, still on viaduct. The line would cross The Strand and Simeon Street still on the viaduct. After crossing Simeon Street the line would descend to ground level using the area between Marymead Close and the Simeon Street Recreation Ground, the line can then rejoin the existing formation. I'm aware that threading the line/viaduct through Cornwall Street could be problematical as there would only be space for a single track. Also noise and privacy issues will have to be addressed (perhaps by enclosing the line within a box as on certain metro systems). Hopefully this will not involve the demolition of any properties but there may be objections to the viaduct obstructing the 'sea view' from some properties but this might be aleaviated if the is space to carry the line to the north of Peter Pan's funfair. The tunnels could be given over to pedestrians and cyclists.

The old tramway route is the vacant one. It doesn't curve round like the railway does. Having previously read about the the tramway I can't remember how it managed to keep going in competition with the main line.

Cheaper fares.

[roythebus]

The original tramway started somewhere else in Ryde and had some street running through Ryde. I can't remember the exact details as I read about it many years ago.

 

In latter years the tramway wasn't in competition with the main line, it complemented the railway for passengers who wanted to go to Esplanade from Pier Head. Trams ran more frequently than the trains and both services were operated by the Southern Railway and later British Railways so weren't in commercial competition. When the tramway closed, the down railway line was used as a shuttle service from Esplanade to Pier Head, but this was later withdrawn as demand fell off.

 

I would suggest that any talk of trams in the streets of Ryde these days would be a no-go as there just isn't the demand or financial incentive for that sort of investment in island transport. It's bad enough trying to get newer trains, let alone provide a very expensive new tramway that would cost tens of millions.

Edited May 16, 2018 by roythebus

[Mike Storey]

The original tramway started somewhere else in Ryde and had some street running through Ryde. I can't remember the exact details as I read about it many years ago.

 

In latter years the tramway wasn't in competition with the main line, it complemented the railway for passengers who wanted to go to Esplanade from Pier Head. Trams ran more frequently than the trains and both services were operated by the Southern Railway and later British Railways so weren't in commercial competition. When the tramway closed, the down railway line was used as a shuttle service from Esplanade to Pier Head, but this was later withdrawn as demand fell off.

 

I would suggest that any talk of trams in the streets of Ryde these days would be a no-go as there just isn't the demand or financial incentive for that sort of investment in island transport. It's bad enough trying to get newer trains, let alone provide a very expensive new tramway that would cost tens of millions.

 

I never knew it ran further than the Esplanade, but cannot find out much more about it, other than it ran as far as St John's Road, where the current train service from Shanklin/Ventnor terminated, from 1871 to 1880, when the main line tunnel opened and trains ran through to the pier. The only thing I have found so far about the route is this interesting snippet from a contemporary objector, which makes remarks about Simeon Street.....

 

http://www.historicrydesociety.co.uk/history/royal-victoria-arcade/ryde-pier/ryde-pier-in-the-1870s/ryde-pier-tramway/

[Mike Storey]

Think I have cracked it on the route of the 1871-1880 Ryde tramway. The evidence shows it ran right along the Esplanade as far as Cornwall Street, to the side of which it ran through a purpose made arch in a house, for reasons explained in the link below. This then explains why it would have crossed Simeon Street and then I presume it continued to avoid the brook by running roughly along what is now Marymead Close, and then on to what would become the route of the railway, north east of St John's station.

 

http://www.islandeye.co.uk/history/trams-trains-and-stations/ryde-tram-strand-arch.html

 

So all that would need to be done now is make a few holes in a few houses, to get a surface route?? 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Mike Storey

[PhilJ W]

Think I have cracked it on the route of the 1871-1880 Ryde tramway. The evidence shows it ran right along the Esplanade as far as Cornwall Street, to the side of which it ran through a purpose made arch in a house, for reasons explained in the link below. This then explains why it would have crossed Simeon Street and then I presume it continued to avoid the brook by running roughly along what is now Marymead Close, and then on to what would become the route of the railway, north east of St John's station.

 

http://www.islandeye.co.uk/history/trams-trains-and-stations/ryde-tram-strand-arch.html

 

So all that would need to be done now is make a few holes in a few houses, to get a surface route?? 

Thats exactly the route I proposed above being completely unaware of the previous tramway. The brook therefore must be culverted beneath Cornwall Street. I am going to check Google streets to see if the house that had the tramway running through it is still extant and if it is for any evidence of the tramway passage.

[PhilJ W]

Checked Google Earth and indeed the same house is still there with what appears to be the same front garden wall with the gap neatly filled in. The house now has a bay window where the tram passage was and there is no indication of its existance.

[009 micro modeller]

Frustratingly old-maps.co.uk doesn't seem to have one for the period the tramway was working that shows it clearly.

[lmsforever]

If light rail happens it is going to abstract traffic from the buses and they will not be happy so maybe they will have a go at their own networks it could be done I think but the cost will be high.Ryde Newport ,would be the only profitable line anyone got any ideas which route would be taken?

[Mike Storey]

If light rail happens it is going to abstract traffic from the buses and they will not be happy so maybe they will have a go at their own networks it could be done I think but the cost will be high.Ryde Newport ,would be the only profitable line anyone got any ideas which route would be taken?

 

I think Southern Vectis would be happy if they ran both, and if that was as a Management Contract to the IOW (or Hampshire CC), just like London Overground contracts, then perhaps there could be, at long last, coordinated transport, at least for the east of the Island, and some road traffic relief (obviating further expensive road and parking improvements, on which a business case could be partly made, along with a number of other socio-economic benefits). Whether any further extensions could ever be justified, is probably unanswerable unless or until some improvement is made to what they already have?

[Mike Storey]

Checked Google Earth and indeed the same house is still there with what appears to be the same front garden wall with the gap neatly filled in. The house now has a bay window where the tram passage was and there is no indication of its existance.

 Indeed, there is a present-day picture of it in one of the earlier posts.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think Southern Vectis would be happy if they ran both, and if that was as a Management Contract to the IOW (or Hampshire CC), just like London Overground contracts, then perhaps there could be, at long last, coordinated transport, at least for the east of the Island, and some road traffic relief (obviating further expensive road and parking improvements, on which a business case could be partly made, along with a number of other socio-economic benefits). Whether any further extensions could ever be justified, is probably unanswerable unless or until some improvement is made to what they already have?

 

I think IoW is unitary. So a county in its own right again.

 

It would certainly make sense to have a co-ordinated approach but that could run foul of certain legal aspects.

 

Ryde to Newport. There is only one sensible route and that's via the existing line!

[John M Upton]

Having travelled at speed on the 1938 stock south of St Johns Road I can tell you, quaint and historic they may be, as far as ride comfort etc is concerned, both the track and the stock needs to be completely scrapped and started again from scratch.

 

Harsh words I know but it needs to be said.

[IWCR]

Re:  the  Pier

 

Both  the  pedestrian  pier  and  the  derelict  tramway  pier  are  lightly  built  structures.

Neither  would  be  capable  of  carrying  light  rail  vehicles.  (the  original  trams  were  very  light)

The  pedestrian  pier  can  only  carry  light  vehicles  (cars / vans)  hence  not  even  buses  can  reach  the  pier  head.

No  chance  of  any  Isle  of  Wight  County  Council  money,  they  have  none.

Souhern  Vectis  would  just  close  the  line,  they  have  withdrawn  many  local  routes  on  the  Island,  even  ones  heavily  used,  the  problem  being  much of  the  ridership  is  on  free  OAP  passes,  many  of  the  village  routes  were  virtually  all  OAP  ridership,  these are  paid  for  by  the  IWCC  at  a  rate  which  Southern  Vectis  finds  is  unsustainable.  Central  government  grants  for  this  and  local  additional  monies  being  inadequate  to  pay  more.  This  is  also  the  problem  for  free  ridership  on  Island  Line for  OAPs,  great  in  theory  and  would  certainly  increase  passenger  numbers,  but  someone  has  to  pay,  who?.

 

Pete

Edited May 16, 2018 by IWCR

[Mike Storey]

Re:  the  Pier

 

Both  the  pedestrian  pier  and  the  derelict  tramway  pier  are  lightly  built  structures.

Neither  would  be  capable  of  carrying  light  rail  vehicles.  (the  original  trams  were  very  light)

The  pedestrian  pier  can  only  carry  light  vehicles  (cars / vans)  hence  not  even  buses  can  reach  the  pier  head.

No  chance  of  any  Isle  of  Wight  County  Council  money,  they  have  none.

Souhern  Vectis  would  just  close  the  line,  they  have  withdrawn  many  local  routes  on  the  Island,  even  ones  heavily  used,  the  problem  being  much of  the  ridership  is  on  free  OAP  passes,  many  of  the  village  routes  were  virtually  all  OAP  ridership,  these are  paid  for  by  the  IWCC  at  a  rate  which  Southern  Vectis  finds  is  unsustainable.  Central  government  grants  for  this  and  local  additional  monies  being  inadequate  to  pay  more.  This  is  also  the  problem  for  free  ridership  on  Island  Line for  OAPs,  great  in  theory  and  would  certainly  increase  passenger  numbers,  but  someone  has  to  pay,  who?.

 

Pete

 

Extremely practical points Pete. Although one wonders why ridership of the Island Line has fallen by around 22% over the last 4 years, against national trends, and especially if competing bus services have been much reduced and many users riding FOC?

 

But SWR were given the challenge to provide a sustainable solution, in the financial sense, which sounds to me like DfT would continue to pay the difference, at least for the foreseeable future. Whilst we pontificate on the possibilities, in a most enjoyable way (I have learnt an awful lot about a place I thought I knew well) in these few pages, I guess we will have to await the unveiling of the chosen solution after DfT have snorted a few stiff ones......Certainly, the 2016 Garnett solution of LRT essentially, was kicked into touch by the IOW Council, presumably on cost, but SWR seem to have a different proposal.

[009 micro modeller]

Extremely practical points Pete. Although one wonders why ridership of the Island Line has fallen by around 22% over the last 4 years, against national trends, and especially if competing bus services have been much reduced and many users riding FOC?

 

Surely it's because it's free - the railway would only be reduced so where journey time is not an issue the bus would win (assuming the 'free' bus rides are still recorded somehow). Doesn't Island Line already abstract traffic from/compete with the parallel bus route?

[Mike Storey]

Surely it's because it's free - the railway would only be reduced so where journey time is not an issue the bus would win (assuming the 'free' bus rides are still recorded somehow). Doesn't Island Line already abstract traffic from/compete with the parallel bus route?

 

Sorry - I don't understand your point? Ridership has fallen because it is free?

 

On journey time, if going to Brading or any point then to Shanklin, the train is far faster than the bus, even now. But the bus may have a better interval service.

[caradoc]

I can't help wondering where the finance would come from to upgrade the Island Line, given that its current ridership supports just two trains per hour consisting of two coach trains. If it still provides a vital transport function for the Isle of Wight, then of course it should be retained, and kept in a safe and reliable condition, but other than replacing the trains (with light rail vehicles perhaps) any projects involving major capital expenditure seem very unlikely to happen.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Having travelled at speed on the 1938 stock south of St Johns Road I can tell you, quaint and historic they may be, as far as ride comfort etc is concerned, both the track and the stock needs to be completely scrapped and started again from scratch.

 

Harsh words I know but it needs to be said.

 

I don't think that there is any doubt that the track needs work on it. So much more difficult of course on the island without modern p-way equipment available.

 

Interesting info about Southern Vectis reducing services due to inadequate compensation for free bus passes. Same thing has happened round here.

 

I don't think that there is much doubt about need for the railway given the time it takes for buses to travel from Shanklin to Ryde on the existing roads. No major money available so the best option would seem to be an upgrade of the existing line with some suitable secondhand rolling stock (unless new can be shown to have a lower whole-life cost).

 

The key factor is to enable a regular interval service that matches the ferry timetable and, preferably some extra trains for local commuters which will encourage reduced car usage.

[t8hants]

As an Islander the last thing I want is for Southern Vectis to get its hands on the Island line, if it doesn't close it immediately, it will price it out of existence.

The railway represents the last parcels of building land in the east Wight towns, so its failure is eagerly awaited by developers.

 

Its a shame that the new houses were built on the top of the tunnel, when the old place was demolished, but I can't complain about myself as I got work out of the new properties, but an opportunity was missed.

To many the value is in the ground not the track bed, but for me the railway connects me to the Mainland in away not possible by bus services.

[009 micro modeller]

Sorry - I don't understand your point? Ridership has fallen because it is free?

 

On journey time, if going to Brading or any point then to Shanklin, the train is far faster than the bus, even now. But the bus may have a better interval service.

Sorry, I misread the original post - thought it was only the buses and not the Island Line that were free.

[Coryton]

As an Islander the last thing I want is for Southern Vectis to get its hands on the Island line, if it doesn't close it immediately, it will price it out of existence.

 

I suspect that depends on whether they are expected to operate it without subsidy and with reduced income from people travelling on free passes or not.

 

Essentially, in the UK railways are a public service to be subsidised where necessary, and (outside London) running buses is a commercial activity based on where there is money to be made, not social necessity (apart from an ever shrinking small proportion of tendered services).

[t8hants]

Much as I would like to see it, I doubt very much if extending the line to any of its old destinations will ever be financially viable.

Running into Newport would probably see the extinction of the Steam railway, as I doubt the economics of operating a proper passenger service from 6:00am to midnight would feasible with steam and a mix of 'heritage' and commercial using the same route must present all sorts of problems of signalling and modernization upgrades.

Southern Vectis by culling some of its more outlying services have got a very good service operating on that route, so I doubt the passenger numbers are there to support any commercial rail service.

A more interesting extension for Island Line would be along the foreshore to Fishbourne, either to serve the existing ferry which is under utilized by foot passengers, or if the doom of the pier by silting up comes to pass, then as an alternative point for a fast passenger ferry.

 

The great tragedy is that immediately on joining the EU, the UK Goverment declared the Isle of Wight was not an 'Island' and didn't suffer from any inconvenience as to travel or connection, thereby robbing us of monies available for island communities.  The same excuse is now being used to close facilities at our local hospital forcing very ill patients to travel to the mainland, to hospitals that do not understand that it can sometimes take hours to travel ten miles in a straight line.