Bachmann 2016 Announcements

[jjb1970]

I don’t really agree that we should view models differently from other consumer items. They’re a discretionary purchase and a purchase that is driven by a passion for either the hobby or the prototype. That hobby may be modelling or collecting but either way people are clearly pretty passionate to be spending significant sums on what most in society would consider to be toys. Yes, things like cars and telephones are several orders of magnitude more expensive to design, manufacture and market and the size of those producing them are very different (the “big” model producers like Kader and Hornby would be pretty insignificant on the books of a company like VW or Samsung) however the fundamentals of clever design, efficient manufacture and marketing are neither unique to any one sector nor irrelevant to specialist sectors. To return to my cycling comparison, many of the suppliers in that market are corporate minnows and there is still a significant amount of cottage industry and artisan producers yet they seem to be much more adept at adding perceived value to their goods (some of the mark ups would make Kader green with envy I suspect) and their customers are willing to pay the price that the suppliers deem appropriate for their product.

There is a cliché in sport, “all the gear, no idea” to describe those who spend ££££££££’s on the best equipment despite being pretty clueless about what to do with it, which indicates that where products are well marketed and are seen to offer something that customers really want then people will pay for it. You see the same in photography. I know people who are on modest incomes but who have built up an outfit of eye wateringly expensive professional quality photography equipment, not because they need it but because they want to and have made sacrifices in order to do so. Model railways seem a bit unusual in being in the world of specialist hobbies appealing to an adult market in being so price sensitive and where much of the focus is on the input side of the equation (i.e. the price of a model) rather than the output side (what value does the model bring to the purchaser, be that modelling potential, just pleasure of ownership, collection completeness or any of a 100 other possibilities). A few months ago my wife bought some Kitchen Aid food mixer thing, it cost probably 4 or 5x plenty of other food mixers which seemed perfectly good to my eyes but she wanted it and has not regretted the cost of buying it. Why does somebody happily spend £500 on a food mixer which does nothing that a food mixer at less than £100 will do perfectly well and display no signs of regretting the price paid yet passionate modellers are fixated on the price of models?

None of which alters the other fundamental fact, if people do not consider that models offer good value then they shouldn’t buy them. I’m not advocating that people should be oblivious to price or swallow anything manufacturers offer. I certainly see some models which I do not consider to be worth the prices asked and so will not buy. However it does strike me that perhaps pursuing a hobby and expecting cheapness is not the way to approach things. The old adage “less is more” springs to mind, if prices go up then buy less but apply more selectivity and do more with what you buy and people might find they get far more pleasure from what they buy.

[Fenman]

... Model railways seem a bit unusual in being in the world of specialist hobbies appealing to an adult market in being so price sensitive ...

I agreed with most of your post, it's just the bit above that raised a doubt. Do we know this hobby is particularly price sensitive, or do we just hear lots of (unrepresentative?) voices on here? The evidence we have, of plummeting sales in model shops, might be as much due to supply shortages as consumer price resistance. I'm not certain about this either.

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

I agreed with most of your post, it's just the bit above that raised a doubt. Do we know this hobby is particularly price sensitive, or do we just hear lots of (unrepresentative?) voices on here? The evidence we have, of plummeting sales in model shops, might be as much due to supply shortages as consumer price resistance. I'm not certain about this either.

 

Paul

 

Both valuable points I think.  One of my 'local' model shops - the one that is only an hour's drive away - has suffered numerous supply problems from, mainly Hornby in recent years and they have not been the only ones; good shop, great reputation, excellent service, and they pay their bills on time but people dealing from their front room buying through Hornby's wholesaler have at times had better and more immediate stocks than that retailer.  And they can't sell things or plan cashflow etc when goods are not delivered in the ordered quantities on due date.   People go elsewhere or they go for what they see as a bargain price elsewhere.

 

The matter of price sensitivity is slightly different but if a survey carried out in a recent thread is any guide it is almost entirely down to a vocal (and repetitive) minority - or maybe they ignored that thread.  In reality there is no objective information available (beyond the quick survey in that thread) but I bet the reps and sales management etc from Bachmann and Hornby sometimes speak to their customers and I bet they have a  pretty good idea of what the market will bear price wise and where they can set their balance between numbers produced and price.

 

Quite honestly I suspect that inevitably decent quality new models that have never previously been available r-t-r will continue to sell as long as the 'right' prototypes are picked.  But hopefully the price on first run will recoup investment costs and make a positive contribution to the business - which inevitably means most locos are going to be well in excess of £100-130ish or more.  The Bachmann Coal Tank is currently priced at £114.95 and assuming they make a decent job of it and any price rises are in line with inflation I bet it will sell out from Barwell.  

 

Also coaches to the standards we seem to want are equally inevitably going to cost anything between c.£40 and £70. I notice that Bachmann are not advertising prices for auto-coaches so presume they are sold out from Barwell, notwithstanding the considerable criticism of the 'high' price when it was first known; maybe some retailers still have some in stock but seemingly Bachmann don't have any.

[Legend]

Well as the repetitive minority (not so sure it's the minority, by the way) we will just have to wait and see. On Autocoaches they may be sold out at Bachmann, but there are certainly many around at dealers. Contrast that with Hornby Colletts that are shifting fast. Different models, certainly but maybe an indication of sensitivity.its not exactly my era but the Colletts look nice and I'm tempted to have a small rake, on the other hand the Autocoach is just way to expensive. I fancy the Crimson and Cream and Maroon ones but it's ruled out on price. We have also had notes before from Hornby about price sensitivity and Gareth's note from Trains4U re volumes. We will just need to wait and see. What is clear is that it's not one size fits everyone. There are some who are extremely price sensitive others at other extreme. What I am encouraged and yet dismayed at is the number of posters on here that appear to be as price sensitive as me this year, certainly on this thread and the Blue Pullman one, so I suspect Bachmann have really gone pushed it on their last round of increases.

[The Stationmaster]

Well as the repetitive minority (not so sure it's the minority, by the way) we will just have to wait and see. On Autocoaches they may be sold out at Bachmann, but there are certainly many around at dealers. Contrast that with Hornby Colletts that are shifting fast. Different models, certainly but maybe an indication of sensitivity.its not exactly my era but the Colletts look nice and I'm tempted to have a small rake, on the other hand the Autocoach is just way to expensive. I fancy the Crimson and Cream and Maroon ones but it's ruled out on price. We have also had notes before from Hornby about price sensitivity and Gareth's note from Trains4U re volumes. We will just need to wait and see. What is clear is that it's not one size fits everyone. There are some who are extremely price sensitive others at other extreme. What I am encouraged and yet dismayed at is the number of posters on here that appear to be as price sensitive as me this year, certainly on this thread and the Blue Pullman one, so I suspect Bachmann have really gone pushed it on their last round of increases.

 

Perhaps the way the Colletts are shifting (apart from need/want of them by Western modellers) is because they are underpriced?  They're certainly cheap for what they are offering and I paid virtually full price for mine (£1 each off RRP).

[Revolution Mike]

On Autocoaches they may be sold out at Bachmann, but there are certainly many around at dealers. Contrast that with Hornby Colletts that are shifting fast. Different models, certainly but maybe an indication of sensitivity.its not exactly my era but the Colletts look nice and I'm tempted to have a small rake, on the other hand the Autocoach is just way to expensive. I fancy the Crimson and Cream and Maroon ones but it's ruled out on price. We have also had notes before from Hornby about price sensitivity and Gareth's note from Trains4U re volumes. We will just need to wait and see. What is clear is that it's not one size fits everyone. There are some who are extremely price sensitive others at other extreme. What I am encouraged and yet dismayed at is the number of posters on here that appear to be as price sensitive as me this year, certainly on this thread and the Blue Pullman one, so I suspect Bachmann have really gone pushed it on their last round of increases.

 

Which purely from a financial point of view does not make too much sense given that the Collett RRP is £40 and the Bachmann Auto Trailer RRP is £68.95 and given that a "shoprt rake" implies more than one where as presumably for an auto trailer you need one or possibly two max. ie you can get an auto trailer for less than 2 Colletts. Inevitably for such one-off type coaches that people are only ever going to buy one or two (as opposed to a rake) then Bachmann have to amortise the tooling across far fewer sales.

 

So your decision is going beyond the purely financial to a more emotional(?)  value decision - that isn't wrong just a different sense of "value". I wonder if there is also an element of I'd rather have 2 cheaper things than 1 more expensive item.

 

It has always been clear that one size can not fit all, but on the scales of production we are talking about for model trains it is often not realistic to segment the market (in the way that say mobile phone manufacturers can).

 

Cheers, Mike

[jjb1970]

I agreed with most of your post, it's just the bit above that raised a doubt. Do we know this hobby is particularly price sensitive, or do we just hear lots of (unrepresentative?) voices on here? The evidence we have, of plummeting sales in model shops, might be as much due to supply shortages as consumer price resistance. I'm not certain about this either.

 

Paul

That’s a good question and one which is hard to answer. Clearly from the amount of comments generated on RMweb there is a significant body that is very unhappy with the price rises however many others are apparently willing to accept the prices and the silent majority haven’t indicated any opinion. That may mean they’re accepting, may mean they’re unhappy but don’t want to post about it or could indicate other possibilities such as apathy or that they’re interested in other model products. I think the only real indicator of market reaction will be if products go unsold and end up having to be heavily discounted or linger for years, but even then is that because the price is too high or is it because the market just doesn’t want the model? Or were too many produced. Two of my favourite Bachmann releases of recent(-ish) times are the London Midland Class 350 and the BR Class 85’s, both are lovely models yet both lingered for a long time and are still easy to find several years after release, was that because of price, were too many made or am I unusual in liking them?

[DropTheTap]

You've not been paying attention for the last 30 years have you. The whole reason production went overseas in the first place was because of labour costs.  Now the Far Eastern labour costs are starting to catching up to western ones the years of cheap models are over.

 

So then move production to Mexico, then India via Afghanistan, before we end up back in the UK...?

 

Although obviously flippant, if, as was said earlier in this thread, Chinese labour is approaching the 8 quid an hour mark by the time insurance is added, wouldn't that place it close enough to the Western markets for them to be able to compete? Although Bachmann own a plant in China, wouldn't other manufacturers potentially be able to outsource to a different (cheaper) labour market more easily?

[Clearwater]

I'd note Mode Railways Direct's recent sales mail had autocoaches at good discounts. Interestingly, the largest discount was on the Crimson version. Presumably that sold least well.

 

Most people have some limits on both their expenditure and modelling interests. The trick as a manufacturer is to balance these and to time your releases to market to benefit from this. I suspect Hornby will have made a good chunk of their budget this month from sales of the collets. However, if you assume a good portion of your ultimate buyers have spent a good chunk of their budget for the year, the last thing you want to do is release another gwr/WR item next month. Hence the decent planned gap from delivery of King in Autumn 2015 to now.

 

In bahcmnann sales, I'd be interested to know how much the derided modified hall has cost them in post sales. The fact that they produce other such good models, eg C1, 64xx, autocoaches helps them in polls but may not help their overall position

 

David

[Legend]

Which purely from a financial point of view does not make too much sense given that the Collett RRP is £40 and the Bachmann Auto Trailer RRP is £68.95 and given that a "shoprt rake" implies more than one where as presumably for an auto trailer you need one or possibly two max. ie you can get an auto trailer for less than 2 Colletts. Inevitably for such one-off type coaches that people are only ever going to buy one or two (as opposed to a rake) then Bachmann have to amortise the tooling across far fewer sales.

 

So your decision is going beyond the purely financial to a more emotional(?) value decision - that isn't wrong just a different sense of "value". I wonder if there is also an element of I'd rather have 2 cheaper things than 1 more expensive item.

 

It has always been clear that one size can not fit all, but on the scales of production we are talking about for model trains it is often not realistic to segment the market (in the way that say mobile phone manufacturers can).

 

Cheers, Mike

Quite right Mike, it is a value thing. The short rake , may well end up at 6 Colletts although I suspect I may have to wait for the second batch. And that's much more than the price of two Autocoaches. However , it is my perception of value,I'd much rather reward a company that's delivering to enthusiasts at moderate cost than otherwise. the Airfix Autocoaches can hold on for a bit longer.

[Coryton]

Well as the repetitive minority (not so sure it's the minority, by the way) we will just have to wait and see. On Autocoaches they may be sold out at Bachmann, but there are certainly many around at dealers. Contrast that with Hornby Colletts that are shifting fast. Different models, certainly but maybe an indication of sensitivity.its not exactly my era but the Colletts look nice and I'm tempted to have a small rake, on the other hand the Autocoach is just way to expensive. I fancy the Crimson and Cream and Maroon ones but it's ruled out on price. We have also had notes before from Hornby about price sensitivity and Gareth's note from Trains4U re volumes. We will just need to wait and see. What is clear is that it's not one size fits everyone. There are some who are extremely price sensitive others at other extreme. What I am encouraged and yet dismayed at is the number of posters on here that appear to be as price sensitive as me this year, certainly on this thread and the Blue Pullman one, so I suspect Bachmann have really gone pushed it on their last round of increases.

 

With the auto-coach, another factor may be that the old Airfix models are fairly easily available second hand and really don't look that bad.

 

I had one many years ago and it was by far the best looking coach I had. It even had slim-line couplings unlike all my other models. It didn't go round my 1st radius curves so it wasn't much use though.

[wombatofludham]

Well, amongst all this talk of price rises, I had a shock last Thursday when I went to a proper model shop somewhere in the Black Country to find the latest "yellow bib" Class 85 release at under £85.  That's less than a certain Liverpool based box-shifter at £119 and much less than the £134.95 rrp from Bachmann.  Before anyone starts trotting out the hoary old gonads of "electrics don't sell", the same level of deep discounting applied to other stuff including popular kettles, coaches and even sound fitted diesels.  I can only assume the owner has compromising pictures of their local Hornby and Bachmann sales reps to get that kind of deal.

 

Suffice it to say not only was I tempted to open my wallet despite having forked out for the remainder of the APT-E balance this month, but I'll be going back there again soon.

[dibber25]

So then move production to Mexico, then India via Afghanistan, before we end up back in the UK...?

 

Although obviously flippant, if, as was said earlier in this thread, Chinese labour is approaching the 8 quid an hour mark by the time insurance is added, wouldn't that place it close enough to the Western markets for them to be able to compete? Although Bachmann own a plant in China, wouldn't other manufacturers potentially be able to outsource to a different (cheaper) labour market more easily?

I was told several years ago that Hornby had tested production in India but that dexterity in assembling the very small parts was far better in China than anywhere else that they tried. India was OK for moulding and packaging kits, hence the production of Airfix in India. (CJL)

[No Decorum]

Well, amongst all this talk of price rises, I had a shock last Thursday when I went to a proper model shop somewhere in the Black Country to find the latest "yellow bib" Class 85 release at under £85.  That's less than a certain Liverpool based box-shifter at £119 and much less than the £134.95 rrp from Bachmann.  Before anyone starts trotting out the hoary old gonads of "electrics don't sell", the same level of deep discounting applied to other stuff including popular kettles, coaches and even sound fitted diesels.  I can only assume the owner has compromising pictures of their local Hornby and Bachmann sales reps to get that kind of deal.

 

Suffice it to say not only was I tempted to open my wallet despite having forked out for the remainder of the APT-E balance this month, but I'll be going back there again soon.

I suppose you can’t be blamed for not telling us which one. You obviously want the bargains to still be there once you’ve sold off all the female members of your family to raise funds.

[wombatofludham]

I suppose you can’t be blamed for not telling us which one. You obviously want the bargains to still be there once you’ve sold off all the female members of your family to raise funds.

 

Actually it was Modellers Mecca in Kingswinford.  Frankly if you are in the area it's worth a visit, and it's in everyone's interest to support traditional model shops even if it means someone else might get what you are looking for, so as a very happy customer I'm happy to share.

 

Plus being single I don't have any immediate family members to sell into white slavery although on the other hand I don't have any awkward questions to field when I make model railway purchases, so swings and roundabouts and all that...

[Trains&armour]

I'd note Mode Railways Direct's recent sales mail had autocoaches at good discounts. Interestingly, the largest discount was on the Crimson version. Presumably that sold least well.

 

Most people have some limits on both their expenditure and modelling interests. The trick as a manufacturer is to balance these and to time your releases to market to benefit from this. I suspect Hornby will have made a good chunk of their budget this month from sales of the collets. However, if you assume a good portion of your ultimate buyers have spent a good chunk of their budget for the year, the last thing you want to do is release another gwr/WR item next month. Hence the decent planned gap from delivery of King in Autumn 2015 to now.

 

In bahcmnann sales, I'd be interested to know how much the derided modified hall has cost them in post sales. The fact that they produce other such good models, eg C1, 64xx, autocoaches helps them in polls but may not help their overall position

 

David

Thanks David.

Just bought me a Bachmann Crimson Autocoach. Wanted one of these since it's release, but it does't fit within my period, GWR 1939-1945, so couldn't justify it to myself as something I 'needed'. And it was a tad expensive for an impulse buy. Yes, the Horby- ex Airfix autocoach does fit my period and is, for it's age, still a nice model. But it's nowhere near as good as the Bachmann one! And while it was built after nationalization, it certainly looks like a GWR autocoach!

And with the discount from Model Zone, my resistance just collapsed. Maybe I will repaint it in GWR Wartime brown and call it a prototype....

It's a hobby after all, and needs and prices are all relative!

(Until SWMBO finds out...  )

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Indeed, almost impossible with Airfix 1/76 tanks...  

Sadly, I have to confess that I simply couldn't remember the scale. Were the Airfix military vehicles 1/76 and the planes 1/72 then? Probably all the poly cement has rotted my brain. (One impressive thing I do remember is that even in polystyrene it was possible to demonstrate why the sloped armour of a T34 was beneficial compared to the four square armour of a Panzer 3. This experiment performed courtesy of Julie Lacey's air pistol with darts.)

 

Design clever hopefully never went away. The mistake Hornby made was firstly announcing it to the world, and secondly poor execution. However I'd hope that all model manufacturers design their wares for ease of assembly and to minimise labour requirements during assembly. And there is a balance between striving for high brass model levels of detail and a train set 0-4-0 tank loco. The crucial thing is that the compromises are not obvious to the consumer.

 While agreeing with the general argument, I rather the think the 'compromises' cannot all be concealed and in many ways should not be. There's this aspect I have droned on about before, what I think of as 'the mix' of features in the product.

 

Some things that go into 'the mix' are not for compromising. Producing models that as nearly as technique allows are the correct dimensions and shape, with a decently accurate livery rendering; hard metal tyred wheels that are concentric, correctly profiled and in gauge, as examples. The technique and materials choices need not be identical, so long as the end result is up to standard.

 

But other things in 'the mix' can differentiate very nicely. For getting on a decade I far preferred Bach's 'mix' on steam locos. Little to no cab interior detail, and what there was moulded as a single piece, and definitely not individually applied painted parts as Hornby's practise which must push up cost. No tender pick ups, just good loco pick up arrangements with sprung driven axles (this is what is required for the total adhesion tank engine so common in UK steam operations to work well, so concentrate effort on being good at this technique!).

 

If applied detail pushes up the cost beyond what it is believed the market will accept, leaving off off said detail completely is always preferable to giving the owner the task of first carving off the inaccurate moulded substitute, repairing the paint finish, then adding DIY detail parts. There are superior compromises...

 

(I don't care overmuch about the 'how' of a model, so long as it is accurate and runs well, and proves durable and repairable. If someone finds a way to grow models with all the required features in a vat from primordial soup, much would I care; and that really would be 'design clever'.)

[Bernard Lamb]

I agreed with most of your post, it's just the bit above that raised a doubt. Do we know this hobby is particularly price sensitive, or do we just hear lots of (unrepresentative?) voices on here? The evidence we have, of plummeting sales in model shops, might be as much due to supply shortages as consumer price resistance. I'm not certain about this either.

 

Paul

Compared with cycling, hi fi and photography model railways would seem to be extremely price sensitive to a particular group of people.

Bernard

[MatthewCarty]

I'd note Mode Railways Direct's recent sales mail had autocoaches at good discounts. Interestingly, the largest discount was on the Crimson version. Presumably that sold least well.

 

Most people have some limits on both their expenditure and modelling interests. The trick as a manufacturer is to balance these and to time your releases to market to benefit from this. I suspect Hornby will have made a good chunk of their budget this month from sales of the collets. However, if you assume a good portion of your ultimate buyers have spent a good chunk of their budget for the year, the last thing you want to do is release another gwr/WR item next month. Hence the decent planned gap from delivery of King in Autumn 2015 to now.

 

In bahcmnann sales, I'd be interested to know how much the derided modified hall has cost them in post sales. The fact that they produce other such good models, eg C1, 64xx, autocoaches helps them in polls but may not help their overall position

 

David

It certainly lost Bachmann my vote for overall manufacturer of the year last year. Over the last 5 years I have tended to vote Bachmann, but last year Hornby brought out so many new models (and seemed to be on good track for bringing their expected dates back on track), and except a couple of cases of QC, they all exceeded my expectation. On the other hand Bachmann's dates continued to slip, there was still nothing happening with many of their models announced years ago, and their was the big disappointment of the revised modified hall. 

[Flying Pig]

If someone finds a way to grow models with all the required features in a vat from primordial soup, much would I care; and that really would be 'design clever'.

This must surely be the way forward: buy your model as a few mils of RNA solution and assemble as many copies as you want at the local RiboZone (no refunds for mutations).

[Colin_McLeod]

That's what gardeners have been doing all along.

[Ozexpatriate]

There is a cliché in sport, “all the gear, no idea” to describe those who spend ££££££££’s on the best equipment despite being pretty clueless about what to do with it,

The 'cowboy' version of this observation is "big hat, no cattle".

 

My very favourite comment of the weekend in this thread was the weather forecast.

[Ozexpatriate]

Just to reinforce the point Mike makes about 'CKD'. If you want to supply a model made up of hundreds of parts, as a 'CKD' kit, the immediate problem is what was known in my day of assembly operations as 'kitting'. The assembly operator(s) on a build needs all the parts necessary to fully assemble the model, obviously enough. Bulk supply of some items like handrail knobs is possible: these can be standardised over a range of models in several types, and then arrive in small bins or whatever for the assembly operative to use. As soon as you propose to transfer the assembly to the private individual, the correct number of pieces have to be supplied every time, if you are not to have a major 'sparing' support operation supplying missing parts.This kitting on a complex assembly quickly becomes as expensive as fully assembling the thing in the factory.

Even the LEGO group, which is entirely in the business of providing un-assembled kits and has unmatched quality control for this sort of thing with an exceptional spare parts process routinely includes additional quantities (of the smallest parts) in just about every set (even in each bag, if the set had multiple bags) - so that they don't have the expense of supplying missing 1x1 round studs.

[No Decorum]

This must surely be the way forward: buy your model as a few mils of RNA solution and assemble as many copies as you want at the local RiboZone (no refunds for mutations).

Great idea! It’s worked before, hasn’t it? The trouble is that we might not get quite what we want and there might be production delays. “Bachmann announces a BR Standard 3 Tender locomotive, or possibly a Webb Compound, or maybe a dinosaur. Expected in around three thou. mill. years.”

[bart2day]

finally, wildly veering back on topic, wouldn't that 319 be lovely if scaled up to OO in a future year...!

I completely agree. I found it quite disappointing that one of the EMUs that I was waiting for a long time to be made in RTR has only been announced in N gauge, especially considering the class 350 was done in both. I was also disappointed that, other than northern rail, there were no contemporary liveries announced for southern modern image modellers, such as First Capital Connect or Southern.

 

Anyone else disappointed either at no OO gauge version or the choice of liveries?