Catering and the Law at Model Railway shows

[Pacific231G]

I think you are missing the point, yes, we need to have these rules now but in the past we never had the need. Regulations are there to stop abuse whether it is the processors or the distributors or individuals. Making a quick buck is more important now and that is the nanny state rearing it's ugly head with regulations we can't read quick enough before the next one arrives, sometimes countermanding the last one. 

Really? Deliberate food adulteration was rife in Victorian times; one reason why factory produced branded goods became so successful once the railways were there to carry them. Your friendly local baker might well have included sawdust and rat droppings in his biscuits but Huntey and Palmer didn't.

 

The fast buck is hardly peculiar to our times. We probably always needed such rules, we just didn't have them and, as with H&SE, they're generally a lot less intrusive than we're led to believe by tabloid headlines.  

[gismorail]

I really do wonder how the hell we as a race have managed to get this far without interventions of the health and safety busy bodies but I suppose it provides employment for the jobsworth's .

[Mike Bellamy]

It was quite amusing at a recent [otherwise well planned] event to see multiple trips being made to Tesco owing to drastic under-ordering in the bacon dept!

 

Dava

 

 . . . . . and I told the Community Centre several times that there would be about 100 there for most of the day and all they would be interested in (apart from trains) was bacon and tea - and I was one of those who had to go shopping for them. Although the ladies from the Tea Rooms were rushed off their feet that day, unfortunately there is hardly any business on a 'normal' Saturday (despite being opposite the main shopping area) and we have always struggled to get volunteers so it looks like Saturday opening will now only apply when special events are being held.

 

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[The Stationmaster]

I really do wonder how the hell we as a race have managed to get this far without interventions of the health and safety busy bodies but I suppose it provides employment for the jobsworth's .

 

Simples - people were injured or killed (or suffered serious food poisoning shortening their lives or even killing them quickly) on a daily basis.  Poor food hygiene is as bad as poor industrial safety as it can be fatal to those who suffer its effects.  

 

As far as jobsworths are concerned I doubt you'll find many directly involved in most forms of safety regulations - in fact there are far too few of them in some regulatory organisations - but you'll definitely find a lot of them in the ambulance chasing sector where they are always on the lookout for any excuse to start a nice bug earner of a court case etc.  And I doubt if any people have died as a result of the imposition of safety standards even if some go beyond commonsense.  Our local authority operates a 'scores on the doors' scheme for all catering establishments with a team going round checking premises and their general safety and hygiene standards and giving a mark out of 5 which is publicised and is also exhibited at the premises - the poor ones either improve or go bust because they lose customers; the good ones prosper.  

 

Not really much different - apart from the very obvious score card - from Public Health Inspectors going round catering establishments 40 or 50 years ago.

[Ian Hargrave]

Really. Delibarate food adulteration was rife in Victorian times. one reason why factory produced branded goods became so successful. The fast buck is hardly peculiar to our times. We probably always needed such rules, we just didn't have them and, as with H&SE, they're generally a lot less intrusive than we're led to believe by tabloid headlines.  

 

As in watering beer and milk deliveries.Practices which persisted into the 1940's.

[pete_mcfarlane]

This was quite a useful thread until it inevitably turned in to a Daily Mail-esque rant against health and safety. 

[petethemole]

They still water beer; but now they have to admit it. You can usually detect the change on labels or pump clips. Many beers and ciders have been reduced in strength, especially in recent years. Prices still go up though. 

[Pacific231G]

I really do wonder how the hell we as a race have managed to get this far without interventions of the health and safety busy bodies but I suppose it provides employment for the jobsworth's .

Women had a lot of children and most of them died!! People who had industrial accidents were simply thrown out of work with their employers accepting no responsibility and often their children starved. You don't have to look far up the supply chain of a lot of the things you buy to see similar situations today. 

[Talltim]

I'll leave this here http://www.victorianweb.org/science/health/health1.html

[polybear]

Oh, yes, because anything purchased pre-packed will of course be pass any hygiene test with flying colours, having quite possibly been prepared on a production line, manned by a low-paid, low-skilled workforce, maybe even spitting, urinating, (or any other atrocity that one might conjure up) into the vats of cookie dough before it leaves the factory.

 

. 

Jeez...just when I thought things couldn't get any worse....

[Ryde-on-time]

I personally think that complying with food hygiene regulations is a very good idea (and it has to do with any Nanny state / health & safety gone made)

 

I think it has more to do with the compensation culture that exists these days. If the people who are preparing food for an exhibition can show they are trained and used procedures as prescribed, it would help protect them if ever there was a possible problem

[Reorte]

I am all in favour of the health and hygene laws as it attempts to stop any get rich quick merchants who don't give a damn about public safety.

Just as long as it isn't a sledgehammer cracking a walnut with a load of collateral damage. There have been contradictory posts in this thread but the one about occasional events sounds reasonable, the sort of thing that's unlikely to attract the get rich quick don't give a damn merchants. I'd rather have the slight risk than eliminate that sort of thing. Lots may have gone on in the past that we don't want to see return thanks to a lack of regulation, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to go too far in the other direction.

[Mike Bellamy]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

The Health and Safety Executive have publish hundreds of false 'Health and Safety' claims here

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/index.htm

 

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[gismorail]

Totally agree with what others have said after my last post as to how the human race as got to the stage that we are at now. But to me 'its just common sense' and thinking about how we do things on a daily basis. 

[The Stationmaster]

Totally agree with what others have said after my last post as to how the human race as got to the stage that we are at now. But to me 'its just common sense' and thinking about how we do things on a daily basis. 

 

Definitely so - and that is really what most safety stuff is - albeit codified and written down.

[MarkSG]

Health and safety legislation broadly falls into two categories. The first is what might best be described as "What sensible people do anyway" - but the non-sensible ones have to be told to do, in case their lack of sense hurts someone. The second is stuff that's counter-intuitive, that we genuinely didn't know until somebody decided to do some research into it.

[jonny777]

Second rule - don't overstock on egg mayo sandwiches - lesson we had to learn last year!  

 

That is, unless you know I will be attending - which I may not have done last year.

[Pacific231G]

Health and safety legislation broadly falls into two categories. The first is what might best be described as "What sensible people do anyway" - but the non-sensible ones have to be told to do, in case their lack of sense hurts someone. The second is stuff that's counter-intuitive, that we genuinely didn't know until somebody decided to do some research into it.

Quite a lot of it, when it comes to risk assessment at least, is what sensible people would do anyway once they've stopped to think about it. When Risk Assessments came into my industry it was quite sobering to realise how risky some of the apparently normal things we'd been doing everyday really were. Legislating it does help avoid situations where a culture of risk grows up. "Nobody wears hard hats/safety boots/ear protection here, they're for sissies" "I checked the aircraft yesterday and nothing's happened to it since" "This chicken is only two days past it's sell by date and it's mostly been in the frig. It'll be fine" .

[Ozexpatriate]

I really do wonder how the hell we as a race have managed to get this far without interventions of the health and safety busy bodies but I suppose it provides employment for the jobsworth's .

It has more to do with the fact that there are 7 billion of us on the planet now than anything else. Arguably, 'health and safety' is part of the reason that we have 7 billion of us on the planet.

[peterl]

How many Model Railway Clubs have registered as CIOs?

Peter

[Phil Parker]

How many Model Railway Clubs have registered as CIOs?

Peter

The L&WMRS is a charity, presumably having registered as a charitable incorporated organization (CIO) but I don't see how this relates to food safety, we still aren't allowed to poison people!

[Nigelcliffe]

A heads up for any exhibition managers..........

 

Some of the smaller shows or those in church halls etc may without being aware, be breaking the law in regarding to providing catering facilities.......

 

I wonder why Sevenoaks council seem to be over-stating the regulations ?

 

The simplest level of legal compliance would be if the event passed as "community or charity", some exhibitions will achieve that easily, others may do so (is fund-raising for a local model railway club a "community" event ?  it may well be, and its almost certainly run by volunteers, so half way to meeting the designation).  Others clearly don't fit in this designation (eg. an exhibition run by a commercial magazine publisher for profit).  

 

If it is a community/charity event, then there is no paperwork, no registration, just a requirement to do things properly according to the government's website:

https://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/caterers/food-hygiene/charity-community-groups

 

This local authority has a good outline of the relevant process, registration, etc.  Covers both catering for non-commercial events, and also commercial baking from home.  Note that even registering for supplying commercial catering from home has no fee associated with it.

 

http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/businesses/health-and-safety/food-safety-and-hygiene/food-hygiene-guide-and-leaflets/

 

 

I fully agree that food should be prepared in a clean and hygienic manner, regardless as to whether it is given away or charged a huge price, but the requirement for over-the-top regulation appears at odds with the government's website. 

 

............................

 

Homemade cakes believe it or not can't be sold if actually made in someone's private kitchen

 

If not covered by the community/charity rules above, the kitchen and person making the cakes needs to have a registration certificate, and make things in accordance with some fairly simple processes. Not overly hard to achieve, though is a bit of annoying paperwork to some.   Plenty of small scale domestic bakers do this, and supply numerous cafes, shops, etc..  in their local areas. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Phil Parker]

I wonder why Sevenoaks council seem to be over-stating the regulations?

Who says they are?

 

They see a poster for what appears to be a commercial event where refreshments are being served from a group who they have no record of having the relevant hygiene certification from. At that point they contact the group with the regs.

 

They don't initially know the group fits an exemption, that would come up after a bit of discussion. It would be interesting to know if the discussion happened before the OP posted.

 

In the meantime the Internet goes into a "H&S gone mad" and "Council gone heavy handed" froth.

 

As others have said, the regs exist for a reason. If you take this approach and sit down with the inspector and ask for help and guidance you'll probably find them very reasonable. I bet talking to the local model railway group is nicer than dealing with a local takeaway who don't see why they need to bother cleaning more then once a year!

[2mmMark]

Definitely so - and that is really what most safety stuff is - albeit codified and written down.

 

The fact that it needs codifying and writing down shows that common sense is not 100% reliable.  I currently have an injured big toe as I popped out the the garage for two minutes to get something, moved my motorbike which I then parked on my foot. As I was only "popping out for a couple of minutes", I was wearing my slippers...

 

Now some who know me may disagree but I consider myself as a fairly sensible person. This shows that sometimes it only takes a second or two for common sense to depart the building.

[30801]

Oh, yes, because anything purchased pre-packed will of course be pass any hygiene test with flying colours, having quite possibly been prepared on a production line, manned by a low-paid, low-skilled workforce, maybe even spitting, urinating, (or any other atrocity that one might conjure up) into the vats of cookie dough before it leaves the factory.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2016/03/14/kellogg-apologizes-rice-krispies-treats-urination/81777346/