RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 24, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2016 Have to report a bit of a disappointment with the latest version of Bachmann’s lovely GWR small prairie tank no. 4539 (cat.no. 32-131). Its announcement well over a year ago was accompanied by a very enticing pre-release illustration with an accurate depiction of the pre-1934 livery, the two words ‘Great’ and ‘Western’ on the tank sides being the correct distance apart (i.e. with enough space to fit the company coat-of-arms, never in fact applied to tank engines after the early 1920s). On this basis I ordered one as a stablemate for my 4575 tank in the same livery. Unfortunately the model as produced has the two words far too close together, exactly as Bachmann’s earlier model of 4555 (cat. No. 32-127B). With the latter it was understandable – I’m guessing that it was consciously a model of the real 4555 as preserved on the DVR, and we all know that preservation liveries are no reliable guide to how things looked in ages past. I’ve sent the model back to Hattons for refund and emailed Bachmann, who say that their R & D people have checked their reference material and consider the model a very close match in terms of lettering size and positioning ‘when scaled down’ (whatever that means). However, they do go on to say that they will consider the content of my email with future releases of this model, which I take as both a tacit acknowledgement of error and a glimmer of hope for a more pukka version of this livery in due course. Many retailers, e.g. Hattons, Rails, have updated the pictures on their websites to show the actual production version of 4539; others, inc. Track Shack and Antics Online are still showing the handsome pre-release illustration. If you’re tempted by the latter be aware that it ain’t gonna be what you actually get! So for me it’s time to unbox that old 4555 and dig out the T-Cut and transfers. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 If anyone is so disappointed that they want to chuck it in the bin, send it to me instead! I quite fancy chopping one about to backdate to original condition, but not one bought at the new price! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted March 26, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 26, 2016 I can't say I noticed the livery, I was more disappointed they'd plated over the cab portholes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 T-cut to remove the lettering, apply new transfer. Far less stress (and cheaper probably) than sending it back, arguing with the retailer why, getting a refund (less postage), and then waiting for the next issue of the model, which will be at a higher price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I would like a model of 4555 as it ran on the main line in 1964 in GWR livery. Am I correct in thinking that it had the plated over round cab-front windows at that time? Is it possible to dismantle the Bachmann 45xx to swap the cab of the model of 4539 on to the model of 4555 (& vice versa)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted March 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2016 I would like a model of 4555 as it ran on the main line in 1964 in GWR livery. Am I correct in thinking that it had the plated over round cab-front windows at that time? Yes: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrqhy1992.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Obviously I know nothing of these matters, but might I suggest a look at the photo in, " The Big Four in Colour 1935 - 50", page 126, of 4539, in 1936, which looks a very close match to the Bachmann model regarding the spacing between the words "great" and "western" to me, but Maybe I'm missing something as I said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 30, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2016 Obviously I know nothing of these matters, but might I suggest a look at the photo in, " The Big Four in Colour 1935 - 50", page 126, of 4539, in 1936, which looks a very close match to the Bachmann model regarding the spacing between the words "great" and "western" to me, but Maybe I'm missing something as I said. That's interesting to hear, and would get Bachmann off the hook! Haven't got this book, and a quick search of the Greater Manchester Libraries joint catalogue this morning has drawn a blank. 1920s pics in my own books include 4509 on p32 of HMRS Great Western Way, 1978, and of 4407, 4408 and 4516 on pp115/6 of Rex Conway's GWR album, 2009. All show a gap between the two words just a little bit shorter than the length of the word 'Great' (about 4.5 letters' worth). Pics in all my books of other tank and goods locos show similar or sometimes even larger gaps. I guess it's possible that if a loco needed repainting before the 1934 advent of the shirtbutton totem, but after the idea of re-instituting the coat of arms on such locos had been dropped, the layout of the lettering was altered. It'd be interesting to see more evidence. In the meantime I'll look out for the book you mention. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 The gap looks more like two letters' worth in this particular picture. Someone else must have a copy and can confirm. I got my copy second hand off ebay if I remember right, for the LNER pics, and it's become a favourite of mine generally. The other Great Western pictures are very good too by the way- very atmospheric some of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yes: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrqhy1992.htm I would like a model of 4555 as it ran on the main line in 1964 in GWR livery. Am I correct in thinking that it had the plated over round cab-front windows at that time? Is it possible to dismantle the Bachmann 45xx to swap the cab of the model of 4539 on to the model of 4555 (& vice versa)?There's a good 3/4 shot of 4555 on26/9/64 in Blenkinsop "Silhouettes of the Big 4" plate 86. The words are clearly fairly tightly spaced. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 ... Pics in all my books of other tank and goods locos show similar or sometimes even larger gaps... In the meantime I'll look out for the book you mention. Arguments over the spacing were actively conducted over forty years ago, by the senior chaps who had seen the subjects in service. If I had to draw a conclusion from their many, variedand firmly held opinions, it would be that the GWR's practise was not uniform in this matter. The book (Big Four in Colour) is invaluable. It will cure you forever of matching chocolate and cream on all the coaches in a 1930s GWR train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted March 31, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 Just ordered a copy of 'The big four in colour' from eBay. Rear cover damaged so only £2.99! So thanks for your recommendations. Had heard of thetitle but never seen it. And anything put together by the late David Jenkinson must be good. John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 I would like a model of 4555 as it ran on the main line in 1964 in GWR livery. Am I correct in thinking that it had the plated over round cab-front windows at that time? Is it possible to dismantle the Bachmann 45xx to swap the cab of the model of 4539 on to the model of 4555 (& vice versa)? BIB- No, this is what I tried to do with mine. I have an older model in GWR livery, no plated over windows and just got the new one in Great Western. My initial thought was that if they are anything like the panniers, the cab swap would be simple. However the construction of the bodies doesn't permit this. It might be possible to swap the cab fronts over, but it was proving to tricky to do without damaging both locos so I gave up on the idea and decided a re-livery of GWR to Great Western on the older model would be easier and less risky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Just ordered a copy of 'The big four in colour' from eBay. Rear cover damaged so only £2.99! So thanks for your recommendations. Had heard of thetitle but never seen it. And anything put together by the late David Jenkinson must be good. Ably assisted by Johns, Edgington and Smart. It wears its scholarship very lightly, every caption well thought out in pointing up what can be seen in the original. It does leave me with an abiding question, who was Philip Colebourn, whose collection yielded so many of the most interesting pictures? I love the pic foot p173 of V2 60910 in 1949 hauling teak coaches though the Holgate (York Racecourse) station. After the fourth coach are what appear to be two BR corporate livery blue and grey vehicles... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I haven't looked at that photo for a while but I seem to remember they are ex Coronation articulated twins of the type that Mailcoach made kits of. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 You'd have the cognoscenti worrying at it for a moment or three if that formation was reproduced on a large layout and first seen approaching from a distance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K14 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Pics in all my books of other tank and goods locos show similar or sometimes even larger gaps. If I had to draw a conclusion from their many, varied and firmly held opinions, it would be that the GWR's practise was not uniform in this matter. The key to the variations lies in the rivet patterns, which vary between classes. The original transfers were varnish-fix & they don't permit adjustment after they've been applied; they also don't take kindly to being applied over rivets unless a hole is cut in them first (then the cutout area has to be touched in with paint). In the back of Russell's Locos book there's a livery drawing of a 56xx which bears the instruction 'Transfers to be cut & spaced to avoid rivets wherever possible'. The instruction to 'cut' refers to transfers prior to c.1930 which were printed in pre-spaced blocks (GRE, AT, WES, TERN). after that they were supplied as individual letters. I have a suspicion that this also marks the change from gilt lettering to yellow. Sometimes, hitting a rivet is unavoidable, so in those circumstances the letter will be positioned such that the rivet hits a solid area - i.e. black or yellow - which is easier to knock in afterwards. A similar situation occurs with weld lines. It is written that 'GWR' is spaced at 3'-6" centrelines; that doesn't work on panniers as at least one letter will clip a weld, so the letters are positioned just off the welds giving a much wider spacing. The photo of 4509 in GW Way shows the rivet lines as being clearly between the letters, as does this shot of 5192 at Leamington in the 30s:— http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls204.htm Pete S. GWS Didcot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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