Kernow MRC announce 4-TC

[Downendian]

I for one value the contributions Robert Carroll and Colin Parks et al. have made to this thread. I'd much rather errors are pointed out so that Kernow may (or may not) make adjustments. If not, I'm happy to buy at least one and either live with it, or add it to the to do list. It's certainly a fine looking model from my viewpoint, but as others have said no RTR model is free of inaccuracies. I urge them to continue in this analysis, otherwise this thread will be malnourished. Robert and Colin's contributions should be highly valued, as the knowledge they have on SR EMUs and coaching stock are vast.

 

Posted on Facebook last night some excellent photos of a 33/1 complete with 4-TC transiting the Weymouth tramway.

http://tracksandtracks.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/trains-in-road-uk-style.html

Neil

Edited July 13, 2016 by Downendian

[Gwiwer]

I for one value the contributions Robert Carroll and Colin Parks et al. .....  the knowledge they have on SR EMUs and coaching stock are vast.

 

 

Neil

 

 

I hope "et al" is taken to include our own SRman Jeff Lynn who I consider to be also within this knowledge bracket.

[Downendian]

Agree Gwiwer, and same for your contributions.

Neil

[ColinK]

I've ordered a 4TC and am looking forward to the model. I do prefer moulded handrails as they can't get knocked off as has happened to several of my models (probably as a result of packing and unpacking to attend exhibitions).

[Timsvideochannel1]

   Having already purchased a couple of Thumpers that came about through the Kernow/Bachmann partnership, I had no hesitation placing my order for a blue/grey 4TC to pair up with a class 33 or electro-diesel. I am a mould maker and I made moulds for both Airfix and Hornby in the far distant past, so I know how expensive mould tools are. The only way these trains can become cheaper is if they are produced in very large numbers, which was always unlikely to happen with the Thumpers, 4 TC's,  Beyer Garratts, Woodhead Electrics, APT-E or any of the other specialised models that have either been financed through crowd funding or a partnership with a model shop. We have the class 71 & 74 to look forward to. I am grateful to those who take the risk and put up the money for these models, most of which would not have come into existence if they had to be justified on straight commercial grounds.

   The 4 TC is exciting because it takes me back to the days when the railways were innovative and the trains were made in Britain. I have videos and photos of Electro-diesels, 4 TC's and the then new Wessex Electrics coupled together in one train passing through the New Forest. The REP's, TC's, class 33 and 73's were versatile and flexible able to meet the changing needs of the railway. I find it hard to get excited over the complicated, inflexible formation Hitachi white elephants currently being built with no guarantee of even being able to see out of a window. The HST was a made up of loco's and hauled carriages which meant they could be adapted as needs changed (why change a brilliant concept?). Remember all the trouble adding two extra carriages to Pendolinos caused.

   The 4 TC is a reminder of British ingenuity at it's best and on a completely different note, I hope one of the big model manufacturers brings out the class 377 Electrostar soon.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Timsvideochannel1

[Budgie]

 The 4 TC is a reminder of British ingenuity at it's best and on a completely different note, I hope one of the big model manufacturers brings out the class 377 Electrostar soon.

I totally agree with you on this one, and I hope whoever it is is well advanced with their Electrostar project as we speak.

[jjb1970]

find it hard to get excited over the complicated, inflexible formation Hitachi white elephants currently being built with no guarantee of even being able to see out of a window. The HST was a made up of loco's and hauled carriages which meant they could be adapted as needs changed (why change a brilliant concept?). Remember all the trouble adding two extra carriages to Pendolinos caused.

   The 4 TC is a reminder of British ingenuity at it's best and on a completely different note, I hope one of the big model manufacturers brings out the class 377 Electrostar soon.

HSTs generally ran as fixed formation trains, whilst power cars and coaches could be swapped around the train formations were not played with. Although modern trains are difficult to split and play with they can be lengthened if needed, examples include the Pendolinos and the London Overground stock. The fact that such adjustment is infrequent and is invariably part of a long term change in train formations is not different to the philosophy applied to the HSTs. On innovation, I’m not sure that trains in the 60’s were any more innovative than modern trains. Although I like many aspects of the passenger environment of older trains I also recognise that in terms of performance, efficiency, crash worthiness and many other things they’d be considered rather poor (to be polite) alongside a modern train. As to the provenance of our contemporary trains, Hitachi and Bombardier have both invested in UK train production plants, Siemens, Alstom and GE all have extensive UK presences (including high end R&D and manufacture), the position is not as simple as just decrying the end of the British train industry.

[Titan]

 The only way these trains can become cheaper is if they are produced in very large numbers, which was always unlikely to happen with the Thumpers, 4 TC's,  Beyer Garratts, Woodhead Electrics, APT-E or any of the other specialised models that have either been financed through crowd funding or a partnership with a model shop.

 

With a 4TC costing £289.95 and the DCC ready APT-E retailed at £225, which not only had the same number of vehicles, it had two motors, tilted and had a very highly detailed and complex interior, they must be assuming a very small production run, and at that price maybe a self fulfilling prophecy?

[Gwiwer]

With a 4TC costing £289.95 .....

 

 

£269.95 until delivered.  Plenty of time to save yourself £20.

[jjb1970]

I think there are two ways of looking at the APT-E comparison;

 

I’d agree that it is hard to justify paying substantially more for what is in effect four coaches with driving ends than for a four unit motorised train when that motorised train was recognised as a particularly challenging project on account of a range of factors and modelled to a very high standard as a limited item which came beautifully packaged with a nice book to boot.

 

The flip side is that the APT-E supplier de-risked the project significantly by making it to pre-order and also taking a significant deposit upfront to assist with cash flow. I also suspect that as Rapido needed to establish their UK OO RTR credentials and their proprietor is a bit mad about gas turbine high speed trains of that era that they’ll have priced their proposal to the NRM quite aggressively. Also Rapido is not carrying the overheads of Bachmann.

 

So I’d not expect Bachmann and Kernow to be well placed to compete with the APT-E, but I also agree that it is quite an eye popping comparison. I think part of it is to recognise that the APT-E was spectacularly good value, and part of it is that these coaches are not the cheapest. Is this set worth it? I’d argue if you want it and will enjoy it then yes it is. If you’re ambivalent about it, not interested or consider that cheaper alternatives will be better for you then it isn’t. But that is not really a comment about the 4TC, I’d argue it is universally true.

[Budgie]

Follow-up off-topic question:

 

When can we expect a 4REP with enough power to handle 2 of these 4TC units?

 

Just asking.

[griffgriff]

Follow-up off-topic question:When can we expect a 4REP with enough power to handle 2 of these 4TC units?Just asking.

Wow... That'll be the thick end of a Grand... If I could afford that kind of money I'd be copying Mr Daniels exploits in recreating a 7mm 4TC

 

Griff

[royaloak]

With a 4TC costing £289.95 and the DCC ready APT-E retailed at £225, which not only had the same number of vehicles, it had two motors, tilted and had a very highly detailed and complex interior, they must be assuming a very small production run, and at that price maybe a self fulfilling prophecy?

How long ago was the APT-E ordered?

Wages etc in China are increasing month on month so it isnt a fair comparison.

[Gwiwer]

Wow... That'll be the thick end of a Grand... If I could afford that kind of money I'd be copying Mr Daniels exploits in recreating a 7mm 4TC

 

Griff

 

 

It really depends on the guts of the thing.  If such a model were to be offered it would only require one powered car (unlike the prototype) and almost any modern drive system will happily manage 12 Mk1-derived vehicles.  The Heljan unit used for their diesel parcel cars readily starts and hauls upwards of 40.  So we'd be looking at about the same just-under-£300 for a 4-car unit plus perhaps £100 on top for an existing-design motor unit with any necessary adaptations for the Rep.  I'd guess closer to £450 than the Grand but still rather more than the commercially-released Cep and Vep have sold for.  

Edited August 8, 2016 by Gwiwer

[griffgriff]

It really depends on the guts of the thing.  If such a model were to be offered it would only require one powered car (unlike the prototype) and almost any modern drive system will happily manage 12 Mk1-derived vehicles.  The Heljan unit used for their diesel parcel cars readily starts and hauls upwards of 40.  So we'd be looking at about the same just-under-£300 for a 4-car unit plus perhaps £100 on top for an existing-design motor unit with any necessary adaptations for the Rep.  I'd guess closer to £450 than the Grand but still rather more than the commercially-released Cep and Vep have sold for.

 

I was referring to the quoted consist:

 

4TC x2 plus 4REP = ££££££

 

 

Griff

[JSpencer]

With a 4TC costing £289.95 and the DCC ready APT-E retailed at £225, which not only had the same number of vehicles, it had two motors, tilted and had a very highly detailed and complex interior, they must be assuming a very small production run, and at that price maybe a self fulfilling prophecy?

 

The APT-E is actually quite a smooth model. There are no loads of pipes and boxes etc to fit on the under frame for a start. It has only 5 bogies vs 8 for the 4-TC and of course it dates from a slightly cheaper era, just at the start of the yearly 20% price hikes.

The electronics on both seem to be just as complex. 

[Robin Brasher]

I have ordered the blue and grey one. I am modelling the Swanage Railway and there is no evidence that unit 404 visited the branch. Unit 417 has been spotted there which is the next number up from the blue one. Units in both colour schemes visited the branch but I prefer the blue and grey versions.

 

When the prototypes came out the Model Railway Constructor produced an article showing how to convert Mk1 coaches into 4TC units. I bought a rake of Mainline Mk1s and a pair of MTK 4TC cabs but I never got round to making it.

 

The Kernow website shows items over £150 post free but the Royal Mail charge was about £14.99. I opted for free delivery from Interlink Express so I hope they will be ok. I had £5 loyalty credit but when I tried to use it a red message kept on coming out saying only amounts over £0 will be accepted. Last time I rang Kernow to get the loyalty discount but I did not want to disturb them while they were sending out the USA tanks. By the time I get my USA tank and my gate stock pull-push sets I expect my loyalty credit will be more than £5 so I will try and cash it in before Kernow sends the 4TC set.

 

I am very pleased that Kernow have stepped in to provide models I need like the Beattie Well Tank, the LSWR signal box, the crossing keepers hut, the clay wagons, USA tank and now the 4TC unit.

[Graham_Muz]

I am very pleased that Kernow have stepped in to provide models I need like the Beattie Well Tank, the LSWR signal box, the crossing keepers hut, the clay wagons, USA tank and now the 4TC unit.

Slightly OT but just for the record Kernow are not producing the USA tank this is a Model Rail magazine commission and Kernow Model Rail Centre carry our the fulfilment for Model Rail magazine via the www.modelrailoffers.co.uk website

[AMJ]

The London Underground mock Teak finish would look impressive.  I can just imagine HJ Sarah Siddons on one end and steam loco on the other.

[SRman]

The London Underground mock Teak finish would look impressive.  I can just imagine HJ Sarah Siddons on one end and steam loco on the other.

 

I wonder if that might be an opening for Electra Railway Graphics to do some vinyl overlays.

[71000]

The price is a question ! I would like 3 of these 4TC's. But & its a big but. I'm not sure I want to pay for a load of complex electrical extras, mainly for the toy train set DCC mob, that I will be forced to rip out and dump, because otherwise these extras will probably interfere with my track circuits, damage cabling, or at the very least trip out my controllers.  

 

Experience with a Bachmann 12CEP formation as supplied, revealed a demand of over 3 amps when run on 12v DC.  Once the interior lighting and ALL the other electrical components necessary (there are many) were removed, demand dropped to a tolerable 1.3 amps.

The pile of removed electrical parts MUST have contributed significantly to the retail price !!!! 

 

So I do not want childish and unrealistic interior lighting or even switches to turn them on or off. Interior lights were NOT switched on in trains during daylight hours until 1978, that was the RULES. 

[JSpencer]

The price is a question ! I would like 3 of these 4TC's. But & its a big but. I'm not sure I want to pay for a load of complex electrical extras, mainly for the toy train set DCC mob, that I will be forced to rip out and dump, because otherwise these extras will probably interfere with my track circuits, damage cabling, or at the very least trip out my controllers.  

 

Experience with a Bachmann 12CEP formation as supplied, revealed a demand of over 3 amps when run on 12v DC.  Once the interior lighting and ALL the other electrical components necessary (there are many) were removed, demand dropped to a tolerable 1.3 amps.

The pile of removed electrical parts MUST have contributed significantly to the retail price !!!! 

 

So I do not want childish and unrealistic interior lighting or even switches to turn them on or off. Interior lights were NOT switched on in trains during daylight hours until 1978, that was the RULES. 

 

Ahem.... would it be possible to avoid calling the DCC mob, "toy train" people please?

 

I doubt real "toy train" people will be buying a 4-TC and are unlikely to even know what one is. Southern modelers - who use DCC - will doubtless use these electronic features to maximum effect.

 

We also do not know what difference in cost leaving these parts out will make. Maybe a £50 reduction max and probably only £30 less in practice.

[Fenman]

Ahem.... would it be possible to avoid calling the DCC mob, "toy train" people please?

 

I doubt real "toy train" people will be buying a 4-TC and are unlikely to even know what one is. Southern modelers - who use DCC - will doubtless use these electronic features to maximum effect.

 

We also do not know what difference in cost leaving these parts out will make. Maybe a £50 reduction max and probably only £30 less in practice.

 

I don't think the pejorative language is helpful (though he was probably being tongue in cheek), but I am curious about the current 00 sales ratio DC:DCC:Sound. That data might tell us what proportion of modellers might want the DCC bells and whistles.

 

I'm conscious Jason Shron has written how Rapido had massively misunderstood the N market, designing a product for DCC first then modifying it (not entirely satisfactorily, by all accounts) for those "few" that wanted DC; it turned out the overwhelming majority wanted DC, and were understandably pissed at being supplied a sub-optimal product.

 

Is that a parallel for 00? I actually have no idea, not knowing what the sales ratio is. But it does strike me as strange that there is an assumption that most of the prospective punters will want complex electronics and assorted gizmos, whereas a glance at the thread DJ Models is running on what people would want from an 86 or 87 paints a much more mixed picture.

 

Paul

Edited August 10, 2016 by Fenman

[cctransuk]

I don't think the pejorative language is helpful (though he was probably being tongue in cheek), but I am curious about the current 00 sales ratio DC:DCC:Sound. That data might tell us what proportion of modellers might want the DCC bells and whistles.

 

I'm conscious Jason Shron has written how Rapido had massively misunderstood the N market, designing a product for DCC first then modifying it (not entirely satisfactorily, by all accounts) for those "few" that wanted DC; it turned out the overwhelming majority wanted DC, and were understandably pissed at being supplied a sub-optimal product.

 

Is that a parallel for 00? I actually have no idea, not knowing what the sales ratio is. But it does strike me as strange that there is an assumption that most of the prospective punters will want complex electronics and assorted gizmos, whereas a glance at the thread DJ Models is running on what people would want from an 86 or 87 paints a much more mixed picture.

 

Paul

 

I suppose that just to know how many decoders are sold per loco sold would be, in itself, quite revealing.

 

Any retailer prepared to answer that one?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Budgie]

I'm one of the DCC mob, and I don't want all the complex electrical gubbins for my 4TC sets. I'm not even sure that I want lights, as I don't run my trains in the dark.