Second hand wagons

[Ruston]

I went to the GOG show, at Doncaster, last Saturday and among other things I had a brake van on my shopping list.

 

I looked at the stalls selling second hand equipment and what struck me was the, in my opinion, crazy prices of second hand wagons*. Whenever I've seen second hand OO stock for sale at general model railway exhibitions it is usually cheaper than buying new. Of course with OO it's usually Ready To Run, whereas with O it's usually kit-built.

 

For example, at Doncaster I saw three examples of the Slaters 4-wheel 10-ton brake van for sale. Priced at £30, £35 and £60. The price of the kit is only £32 inc. VAT brand new. I can see there's added value in a loco, or a well-finished coach as the building and painting can be beyond some people's ability but a plastic wagon kit is simple to build and paint and if  doesn't come with ready printed lettering it's usually just a matter of putting on transfers.

 

The wagons I saw were clearly not built and finished by some master craftsman either. I considered buying the £30 van but the rubbish paint job, poor weathering and the glued up sprung buffers meant a repaint and remedial work anyway, so what's the point? The £60 van wasn't much better finished but did come with 3 lamps attached. Clearly the lamps added a tenner each in value...

 

If the vans had been 5 pounds cheaper than the new kit then I'd have bought one but at those prices I won't touch them. I wonder how much of this tat actually sells.

 

What are other people's opinions on buying second hand wagon stock, and why is it so expensive in O gauge when compared to second hand stock in N or OO?

 

* Items that are common or are still in current production and available new as kits.

[The Bigbee Line]

I collected a number of models through ebay.  One kit couldn't have been built any worse.  I'm no master builder, but some are just thrown together.  Luckily I shopped at a price, on the premis that they would be good practice.  I got plenty of practice...

[BG John]

I've bought all but one of my wagons secondhand on eBay, for around half the price of the unbuilt kit. I assumed this was quite normal, as it didn't take long to collect a few, but it seems that maybe I picked a lucky time, as nearly all the ones I watched that have sold more recently have gone for nearer the kit price. I don't look at the "expensive" ones, the ones where the starting price is over a tenner, and delete any from my Watch List that go over half the new kit price. The only new one I've bought, and the most expensive, was half price in Dapol's special offers on their web site last month, just to see what it was like!

 

All my purchases have had faults, but nothing much that can't wait for a while, apart from a couple of very very cheap badly made Coopercrafts, that I knew were bad. One day I'll have a good session of improving and repainting, but not yet. I've got a rather random selection of pre-grouping wagons, so it would be more expensive if was after specific models.

[John R Smith]

Why purchase someone else's mistakes? I would rather buy the kit and make my own cock-ups, at least then there is nobody but me to blame . . .

 

John

[BG John]

In my case, I wanted some wagons to get started with. My plan was to scratchbuild everything I needed, as I can't justify spending £30, £40, or more on wagons, and I wanted to scratchbuild rather than make kits anyway, but it's not happening yet, so it's been useful picking up some cheap ones.

[BG John]

Here's a selection of my roughly half unmade kit price wagons. Not perfect, but I think they're fairly presentable for now, and most of them don't need major work. Shame about the red Midland open though! The Coopercraft loco coal on the left of the general view hardly moves as it's so far out of square, but it and another equally bad one cost less than the wheels are worth. The new Dapol has sneaked in too!

 

 

 

[DaveF]

Here's a selection of my roughly half unmade kit price wagons. Not perfect, but I think they're fairly presentable for now, and most of them don't need major work. Shame about the red Midland open though! The Coopercraft loco coal on the left of the general view hardly moves as it's so far out of square, but it and another equally bad one cost less than the wheels are worth. The new Dapol has sneaked in too!

 

I hope you won't mind a quick comment on the Midland wagon in "red" (looks like a bauxite shade in fact to me).

 

From about 1900 the Midland painted dropside ballast wagons red oxide, this wagon is the nearest kit to the prototype.  They were not lettered MR but had ED in white, 2.5 planks deep where the MR would normally be.  (Midland Style, George Dow, pub HMRS).

 

David

[F-UnitMad]

All part of the O Scale 'conspiracy' prevalent in Britain, I think - the long-prevailing viewpoint that "If it's O Scale, then it simply MUST be expensive", regardless of an item's origins or quality of construction.

[BG John]

I hope you won't mind a quick comment on the Midland wagon in "red" (looks like a bauxite shade in fact to me).

 

From about 1900 the Midland painted dropside ballast wagons red oxide, this wagon is the nearest kit to the prototype.  They were not lettered MR but had ED in white, 2.5 planks deep where the MR would normally be.  (Midland Style, George Dow, pub HMRS).

 

David

I've already discovered that thanks David. I can't imagine Midland ballast wagons would have been found on the Kent & East Sussex Railway, so it's due to visit the paint shop one day. I'm wondering if my painting skills are good enough to paint round the lettering to save getting hold of new transfers. It may well get a tarpaulin to hide the evidence! I need to repaint the Midland van too. The K&ESR layout will be set in about 1905, but Cheapside Yard, that they're standing on, may well be late 1920s, so I can run any later wagons I get hold off, like the Dapol one.

[Donw]

The Guild Executor & Trustee list shows wagons at about £20 there are photos but I cannot see how good the build quality is. If you are a guild member you can reserve stuff and reject it if the items do not match up to the  description. The stuff I have bought from the service has been items where I have known the builder. The list includes some items with bits missing but they are stated and the price reflects the fact.

Don

[davec.hh]

The Guild Executor & Trustee list shows wagons at about £20 there are photos but I cannot see how good the build quality is. If you are a guild member you can reserve stuff and reject it if the items do not match up to the  description. The stuff I have bought from the service has been items where I have known the builder. The list includes some items with bits missing but they are stated and the price reflects the fact.

Don

There were wagons at less than £20 on the Guild E&T stand and some bargain packs of 4 or 5 wagons all from the same estate at considerably less than £20 per vehicle. No doubt there will be lots of wagons and vans at the Telford show (3rd/4th September) all examinable before purchase and priced to reflect the quality of build/paint job. The E&T has had a lot of well built but unfinished wagons and vans at recent shows that were priced at about (or maybe a little less than) the cost of a new kit. There are also usually unstarted kits at less than the cost of new as well. It all depends on the estates that come in to the Guild.

 

As Don says items can be reserved for inspection.

 

I will be at Telford helping out on the Stand (I'm often on the wagon and vans).

 

DaveC

[muddys-blues]

Whilst I understand some of the criticism about the build quality and pricing of some of the stock on offer, I think there is a need to reflect on what circumstances why some of these items are being sold vie the Executor & Trustees stand, and where the main proportion of the funds end up.

I hope my crummy modelling efforts raise some funds for my beneficiaries when I shuffle off from this mortal world.

Craig.

[Dunsignalling]

Surely, if a wagon has been built and painted well, it should logically have acquired added value over the kit it is made from, particularly to those who judge they couldn't match the standard themselves. Similarly, if it wasn't built and painted at least as well as I could do for myself, why would I want it anyway? 

 

As for 4mm stock, the price rises on new r-t-r have largely fed through into the s/h market already. Almost any mint/boxed wagon now fetches more than it cost when first released.

 

John

[gismorail]

I know exactly where you are coming from on the original thread post. When i first got involved in '0' gauge modelling I too was drawn to the second hand 'cast aways' at GOG events and having purchased a couple of reasonable looking wagons only to find that the running qualities left a lot to be desired. 

My advise to anyone now is build it yourself and to be honest you will find 0 gauge kits a lot easier to assemble to a good standard than say 00 items. 

[hartleymartin]

Depending on how the "castaways" were built, you may be able to undo various parts and re-glue them. A bit of acetone-free nail polish remover generally gets epoxy undone, but solvent-welded plastic is basically impossible to deal with unless you can pry a tool blade in between parts to separate them.

[BG John]

solvent-welded plastic is basically impossible to deal with unless you can pry a tool blade in between parts to separate them.

I was told that putting it in a freezer makes the joints brittle enough to break apart. I tried a Coopercraft wagon in the freezer compartment of my fridge, and it worked fairly well, but not perfectly. Maybe a proper freezer would be better.

[Dava]

If you shop around at G0G events you can find good deals & even bargains. Sometimes unbuilt kits are best value. The former Coopercraft kits can be found for a few pounds or less, needing new buffers, coupling hooks + wheels but compare with price of the same vehicles from slaters now. Built items often have alignment & other issues. However a few cripple, scrap and wagon bodies can be useful on a layout.

 

Dava

[Hesperus]

3H wagons are generally less than £10 and are fairly good for bulking out the stock of us bodging scratchbuilders (we know who we are)

[Donw]

THe E&T service aims for a fair price not an over inflated one like you often see on Ebay. These are vehicles which have been used so there may be the odd knock on the paintwork. Since many 0 gaugers enjoy the pleasure of building a wagon they do not put a premium on one already built

 

Don

[gismorail]

I was told that putting it in a freezer makes the joints brittle enough to break apart. I tried a Coopercraft wagon in the freezer compartment of my fridge, and it worked fairly well, but not perfectly. Maybe a proper freezer would be better.

Now that's an interesting tip I will freeze a Toad that's giving some trouble and see if a quick break down and mend can improve things running wise thank you 

[MarcD]

You might find that the cost reflects the cost of building the wagons. I build wagons from our own and other peoples kits. If is kit costs £45 for example ans then you have to wheels (£9), paint (£1.50), transfers (£7.50) and the time to build and paint 2 hours@£10  then you wouldn't get much £80. And that is being cheep on the time as it can be up to 3 hours  just to paint some wagons due to livery.

 

Cheep wagons are all well and good if are happy that but people must realise that the model trade are not there to supplement the modellers pocket they are on the whole trying to make a small living or at lest cover their costs.

 

 

Marc  

[Grovenor]

You might find that the cost reflects the cost of building the wagons. I build wagons from our own and other peoples kits. If is kit costs £45 for example ans then you have to wheels (£9), paint (£1.50), transfers (£7.50) and the time to build and paint 2 hours@£10  then you wouldn't get much £80. And that is being cheep on the time as it can be up to 3 hours  just to paint some wagons due to livery.

 

Cheep wagons are all well and good if are happy that but people must realise that the model trade are not there to supplement the modellers pocket they are on the whole trying to make a small living or at lest cover their costs.

 

 

Marc  

I think this discussion was about secondhand wagons where the builder has had the enjoyment of building them and maybe many years use. Buying wagons professionally built from kits by the model trade is an entirely different proposition where one would expect to pay for all parts plus labour.

Regards

[MarcD]

However some people don't distinguish between the two. Additionally when people come to sell their models they tend to look at the price of a ready to run wagon as the basis for the prices they come up with. We were directly opposite the E&T stand at Doncaster and people were astonished that our ready to run and kit prices didn't reflect those of the E&T.

 

Marc  

[Donw]

However some people don't distinguish between the two. Additionally when people come to sell their models they tend to look at the price of a ready to run wagon as the basis for the prices they come up with. We were directly opposite the E&T stand at Doncaster and people were astonished that our ready to run and kit prices didn't reflect those of the E&T.

 

Marc  

 

These are probably the people who have never built anything and also likely to moan if something off the E&T stall isn't perfect. here are a lot of people who expect everything at a bargain price. The result (not in the model trade so far) is that the quality drops to keep the price down so we all lose in the end.

Don

[81A Oldoak]

Er, I think it's called the market place and the only right price is the clearing price when buyer and seller are happily agreed. No one is obliged to purchase any of the items on offer if they don't like the price, terms. conditions or quality. If items are very cheap, then there is probably a sound reason why and caveat emptor applies.