hayfield Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I find this phrase a bit odd. If Phil purchased C&L and it's products how can something be 'Taken away' ? if he didn't purchase the Exactoscale range then it can't be taken away. Strange. It is telling though, that they also have a disorganised pile of products to sort before they are able to restart selling, much as Phil had. Chris Phil bought parts of C&L (other bits went to Precision Paints) Exactoscale was sold under a marketing deal (details of which I have no idea) Seems that Mr Jukes has had time to reflect on how his whole product range has been handled and seems he now feels it would be better run as a seperate business When Peter (previous owner) took over distributing Exactoscale products, he told me it was in a very disorganised state and took quite some time to get most of it sorted out, likewise due to the circumstances of the latest take over of both C&L and Exactoscale ranges Phil received the items which had been hurriedly packed which took him many weeks more than anticipated to sort out As said in an earlier reply it may be best for all separating both ranges, each can then concentrate on their own ranges. Phil is having at least one new mould built at this moment, which is quite an investment One fear I do have is the disparity between the Exactoscale trackwork and the rest of the Exactoscale range as they are two different beasts, but its a case of wait and see. On a positive note it is good to see Mr Dukes having an interest in the continued supply of the Exactoscale range, which I hope will be beneficial to all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bri.s Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Unfortantly I ended up spending a considerable amount of time and effort trying to get Exactoscale 7mm running chairs slide chairs to fit the rail. After much measurement I suspected there was a problem with the products and raised this with the previous owner who eventually agreed tooling was worn but nothing has been done about it (I outlined the problems on this forum under a different heading at the time and supplied photos to show the issues) see link below for details... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/user/29282-greenmodelmonkey/ I eventually got over the problem buy using PECO rail section instead of C&L rail and it fitted the Exactoscale chairs perfectly. I know the PECO rail section is not quite right but the thinner foot of this rail fitted the chairs and does not look any different once fitted and weathered. I was going to buy some spare ready made 7mm track at a recent show from C&L but decided against it as I thought the material used for rails was so silver in appearance (which is claimed makes it look more like steel, but I have never seen real rail this colour and still think nickel silver is best ... and cheaper to produce). I also noted that rail was not as smooth along its length as I have been used to other makes of rail so rail looked like cheap Lima track if anyone can remember this. Just hope that Exactoscale chairs will get sorted if range is being moved again as it was a shame products standards and quality had slipped under previous ownership. Hope this helps as situation at the time gave me a real headache especially as I had to make all my one pointwork aswell. Also a considerable sum of money was invested the products which were far from perfect ... at the time of purchase course. Cheers GMM Thanks GMM that’s usfull to know Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 17, 2018 Interesting, I hand realised the Exactoscale tools are failing as well. The GW two bolt chair at least was still going well when I last bought some just before the C&L shop closed down. It's not clear whether the tools are worn, not set up correctly by the moulding supplier, incorrectly designed in the first place, or current rail sections don't match the original rail. This applies to both C&L and Exactoscale chairs. There are some close-up photos of chairs not fitting rail here: https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55937#p55937 The problems can of course be avoided by cutting the chairs in half, and using them with traditional riveted ply or vero pins soldered construction. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 (edited) personally, while I feel no ill will at all to Phil, I do think the approach to organising his business seems rather odd and rather sclerotic. Coupled with persistent supply issues on social media etc I am not suprised an intervention has occurred. Perhaps it will benefit phil as it will give him a smaller range to manage and may suit his exhibition oriented supply model better. It is a far better situation to have two suppliers of track components and I for one welcome the move and its good to see that the Exactoscale brand will have the keen focus of its brand owner Edited May 18, 2018 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Interesting, I hand realised the Exactoscale tools are failing as well. The GW two bolt chair at least was still going well when I last bought some just before the C&L shop closed down. The C&L version is a little more easily obtainable. EMGS stores still have some. Reference to the Mr Smiths book on GW trackwork, seems to indicate that most of the check rails were of this type any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted May 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19, 2018 News from the horses mouth. https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5859&sid=facb63cb88610365e2c7a657cf16969c A welcome move I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 There were still various Exactoscale bits to be had on the C&L stall at ExpoEM (a few less bits after I'd visited), so until Exactoscale gets up to speed again I suppose it's a case of 'get it while you can'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Chris Phil bought parts of C&L (other bits went to Precision Paints) Exactoscale was sold under a marketing deal (details of which I have no idea) Seems that Mr Jukes has had time to reflect on how his whole product range has been handled and seems he now feels it would be better run as a seperate business When Peter (previous owner) took over distributing Exactoscale products, he told me it was in a very disorganised state and took quite some time to get most of it sorted out, likewise due to the circumstances of the latest take over of both C&L and Exactoscale ranges Phil received the items which had been hurriedly packed which took him many weeks more than anticipated to sort out As said in an earlier reply it may be best for all separating both ranges, each can then concentrate on their own ranges. Phil is having at least one new mould built at this moment, which is quite an investment One fear I do have is the disparity between the Exactoscale trackwork and the rest of the Exactoscale range as they are two different beasts, but its a case of wait and see. On a positive note it is good to see Mr Dukes having an interest in the continued supply of the Exactoscale range, which I hope will be beneficial to all Perhaps the parting of the ways was inevitable. Exactoscale is very much its own industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 News from the horses mouth. https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5859&sid=facb63cb88610365e2c7a657cf16969c A welcome move I think. Good grief ! Not for 7mm modellers it isn't unless these parts are going to be sold via the Scalefour Society ? Maybe the GOG sees an opportunity here :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Are the c&l 7mm chairs and point bits exactoscale?and just sold under c&l ? Brian There two types C&L and Exactoscale chairs .... C&L came first Exactoscale were made later and are better quality mouldings. Both are intermixable but you you may have to mix 3 bolt with 4 bolt with 2 bolt chair to get close to region you are modeling. None of the ranges provide a complete set of chairs apart from I believe the four bolt version produced by Exactoscale. Two bolt chairs are better in Exactoscale compared to C&L two bolt chairs ...... It's all a bit of a minefield really and both makes suffer from worn tooling. Probably not answered you question really, but think your assumption is close to reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I model in 7mm and have never had any trouble with the chairs and I have used both C&L and Exactoscale. All I do is file the even of the rail web into a slight vee, which is then just right to slide the chairs on to the rail. They need to be quite a tight fit otherwise the chair will not grip the rail correctly. Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I model in 7mm and have never had any trouble with the chairs and I have used both C&L and Exactoscale. All I do is file the even of the rail web into a slight vee, which is then just right to slide the chairs on to the rail. They need to be quite a tight fit otherwise the chair will not grip the rail correctly. Maertyn. Unfortunately not the case with mine they had significant issues and previous owner admitted there were issues with tooling. I bought my chairs just before the business was sold on. I believe it was something to do with the part of the tool that formed the rail cross section during moulding process. I had several that bent and cracked when threading onto rail and slide chairs failed to touch rail web as they were held off by rail foot. I ended up using PECO rail section as outlined in earlier post and they slid on without any issues and have reamained firmly in place. Sounds as though you might have had a better batch than mine. Cheers GMM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Thanks GMM yep basically woulded if exactoscale took there range away from c&l would I not be able to buy 7mm chairs and bits from c&l or go to the new exactoscale supplier Brian I assume you can still get Exactoscale chairs from C&L until Exactoscale take back the range (whenever that is of course). Probably worth calling Phil at C&L to clarify what's happening in order to help you direct. Cheers GMM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) I assume you can still get Exactoscale chairs from C&L until Exactoscale take back the range (whenever that is of course). Probably worth calling Phil at C&L to clarify what's happening in order to help you direct. Cheers GMM As mentioned above, I got some 4mm parts on Saturday at ExpoEM. There were 7mm parts on the stand, but I didn't pay close attention to them to know what was there. Assuming they didn't all sell out by the end of Sunday I presume there will be some to be had at Railex this weekend. Edited May 22, 2018 by sharris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Unfortunately not the case with mine they had significant issues and previous owner admitted there were issues with tooling. I bought my chairs just before the business was sold on. I believe it was something to do with the part of the tool that formed the rail cross section during moulding process. I had several that bent and cracked when threading onto rail and slide chairs failed to touch rail web as they were held off by rail foot. I ended up using PECO rail section as outlined in earlier post and they slid on without any issues and have reamained firmly in place. Sounds as though you might have had a better batch than mine. Cheers GMM Agreed GMM, I have also noticed a difference between C+L and Exactoscale chairs over the past few years. I once asked Pete L at a GOG exhibition why I found the Exacto chairs easier to thread onto code 125 HINI rail and he said it was due to tolerance difference in the moulds but I also queried why the plastic seemed 'harder' (also diff colour) on the C+L range but he said the plastic used in the moulding process was the same. To me the Exacto chairs have always been superior in quality. I have also noticed variation in rail section due I guess to slight variations in the drawing process. Rail I bought a number of years ago seems a better chair fit to recent batches , also noticeable when using rail gauges which 'grip' the rail head. Some slide on neatly to the rail head and others don't fit on to the more recent code 125. The gauges were all bought at the same time as I did wonder if these had been a bit 'loosely' machined however I now believe this is due to rail section variation. Not surprising I guess given the passage of time and different suppliers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Agreed GMM, I have also noticed a difference between C+L and Exactoscale chairs over the past few years. I once asked Pete L at a GOG exhibition why I found the Exacto chairs easier to thread onto code 125 HINI rail and he said it was due to tolerance difference in the moulds but I also queried why the plastic seemed 'harder' (also diff colour) on the C+L range but he said the plastic used in the moulding process was the same. To me the Exacto chairs have always been superior in quality. I have also noticed variation in rail section due I guess to slight variations in the drawing process. Rail I bought a number of years ago seems a better chair fit to recent batches , also noticeable when using rail gauges which 'grip' the rail head. Some slide on neatly to the rail head and others don't fit on to the more recent code 125. The gauges were all bought at the same time as I did wonder if these had been a bit 'loosely' machined however I now believe this is due to rail section variation. Not surprising I guess given the passage of time and different suppliers. One thing I notice with both products the chairs on the sprues are all very slightly different Problems with chairs becoming brittle apparently is down to the temperature of the plastic in moulding, also the pressure the moulds are held together can affect the mouldings. In short its a highly skilled process that can sometimes go wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) You wouldn't believe the differences in 4mm scale Bullhead rail, I know you wouldn't normally notice but they are there. I am pretty sure that code 125 rail is equally prone to variation, I've just been using some which purports to be identical but clearly isn't. I well remember Brian Lewis stating that from time to time the rail suppliers helped each other out so it's no surprise that there is such variation., John I've had problems with brittleness in both 4mm scale ranges but mainly Exactoscale but pre-C&L. Perhaps the differences in rail section might have something to do with it too. Edited May 23, 2018 by Stephen Freeman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 One thing I notice with both products the chairs on the sprues are all very slightly different Problems with chairs becoming brittle apparently is down to the temperature of the plastic in moulding, also the pressure the moulds are held together can affect the mouldings. In short its a highly skilled process that can sometimes go wrong John, I have not noticed this in 7mm, presumably because the chairs have more 'meat' to them, however definitely seen it in some 4mm chairs. The base of the chair is too thin as if the moulding process has not delivered enough plastic or maybe the temperature/pressure was incorrect as per your comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I have seen it with both 7 mm and 4 mm. I guess due to the greater mass in 7 mm, it may be more prone. Initially I thought it may have been due to the solvent used. But at a show I was discussing the brittleness to someone who does injection moulding and its the plastic getting overheated which changes the characteristics The person was telling me the first few shots were thrown away whilst the mould got up to temperature, and a keen eye had to be kept on the temperature of the plastic whilst moulding was taking place, also the pressure of the moulds being held together also had to be correct, otherwise distortion of the part being moulded occured Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur38 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) Reference to C&L and ordering, I've been trying to contact C&L for weeks now, ringing at various times of the day and I've had no luck, I placed an order back in February for well over £200 and had nothing, can anyone shed any light as I'm getting rather frustrated! Edited May 31, 2018 by Arthur38 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Reference to C&L and ordering, I've been trying to contact C&L for weeks now, ringing at various times of the day and I've had no luck, I placed an order back in February for well over £200 and had nothing, can anyone shed any light as I'm getting rather frustrated! From the website I am going to amend the office hours to allow more time to prepare for shows and attend to the mail orders This is a temporary measure that will apply through until the end of June 10.00 to 14.00 Monday to Thursday. Difficult to catch him simply as he is dividing his time between phone enquiries and collating and sending out orders, plenty do get through even a chap in Canada who is 5+ hours behind us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 From the website I am going to amend the office hours to allow more time to prepare for shows and attend to the mail orders This is a temporary measure that will apply through until the end of June 10.00 to 14.00 Monday to Thursday. Difficult to catch him simply as he is dividing his time between phone enquiries and collating and sending out orders, plenty do get through even a chap in Canada who is 5+ hours behind us It took me a couple of weeks last time to get through, true I'm still waiting for the timbers to turn up but it hasn't been a week since I paid him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted May 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2018 He's done a lot of shows in the last few weeks, I doubt that he's spent much time at home, let alone by the phone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Finsbury Posted May 31, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2018 I spoke to Phil at Railex and he mentioned that he doesn't have show this weekend. Bern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 He's at Demu showcase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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