Stoke Courtenay

[BMacdermott]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

There’s another suggestion for Rapido, the GWR milk tanker to their standards.

 

Hello Rob

 

I have been interested in 'the milk subject' for many years. It is vast and needs thoroughly investigating.🙂

 

When you compare current RTR Milk Tank Wagons with photos of 'typical' milk trains, it is an empty bottle waiting to be filled.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I hope John doesn't feel this is taking the thread off topic, but 'a drop more milk' for you...

 

When we ran the Mini-polls on Rob's thread in 2021, 'milk' was high up. There were 23 respondents.

 

High Polling

17        Milk Tank Wagon – 6-wheel, twin tank (Diag.O41 of 1935 & Diag.O50 of 1940)

14        Milk Tank Wagon – 6-wheel, ladders/filler at one end (eg Diags.O57 of 1946 & O60 of 1950)

13        Milk Tank Truck – 6-wheel with Dyson Milk Road Trailer Load (eg Diags.O37, O48, O49, 1932-47)

 

The 00 Poll Team put a lot of thought into how to list 'milk' in The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022 and it fared well there, too. Results extract below...

 

Top 50

235      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre GWR/SR/LMS/LNER/BR 

149      Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder off-centre, small platform GWR/SR/LNER/BR 

149      Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 20ft 6in. 4-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load GWR/SR/LMS/LNER

 

High Polling

116       Milk Tank Truck 6-wh 24ft 6in. 6-wh Milk Road Tanker Trailer load, GWR/LMS/LNER

115       Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, GWR (Diag.O57) 

108       Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 2000-gall. Ladder & filler in centre, LMS/LNER (Diag.1992 & Diag.222) 

 

Middle Polling

91        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladders each end, twin tank/compartment, GWR (3 diagrams) 

86        Milk Tank Wagon 6-wh 3000-gall. Ladder & filler one end, sloping tank, BR-built (3 diagrams) 

 

Lots of diagrams with lots of variations often built in small numbers - and sometimes with few livery variations and others of some quantity but not built until BR days. I am fairly confident, though, that given some dedicated work, a maker could find a number of viable types. 

 

Brian 

[Coach bogie]

Two very detailed versions of the Dyson road tanker milk wagon are available from Bygone wagons. I have two for my milk train.

 

https://www.bygone-wagons.com/446779589

 

Mike Wiltshire

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Rob

 

I have been interested in 'the milk subject' for many years. It is vast and needs thoroughly investigating.🙂

 

When you compare current RTR Milk Tank Wagons with photos of 'typical' milk trains, it is an empty bottle waiting to be filled.

 

Brian

 

Wasn't there going to be a book published on their operation by a RMweb member at one time.

[checkrail]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Have you got a milk train, John? I can't remember seeing one.

 

It would be coming through from Plymouth early in the morning and maybe stopping to pick up some vans brought down from Earlsbridge.

I've always had one in the back of my mind.  I suppose that the reason the idea keeps getting shelved in favour of other projects is due to my limited knowledge of the prototypes and even more of the the RTR offerings.  I think more than one firm has done a 6-wheel milk tanker but seem to remember comment that they had various shortcomings.   So obviously I like Robin's @gwrrobsuggestion to Rapido!

 

The other reason is that I'm running out of storage space!  The fiddle yard is full and there's limited room in the loft for any more storage units. 

 

But the operational scenario you suggest is an attractive one.

 

John C.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by checkrail

[gwrrob]

It would suit Rapido as one or two added to their 45xx and B set but also a dozen behind a Hall on the mainline would be magnificent too. Best of both worlds @RapidoCorbs

[BMacdermott]

Hello Rob

 

The 00 Poll Team recently lost our good friend - and milk aficionado - Glen Woods to cancer. He was compiling much material for a book but didn't actually get there. I might have more news on that for you soon.

 

Brian

[checkrail]

Kings cross.

 

 

King's Cross?  No, this is Stoke Courtenay!

 

John C.

[BMacdermott]

2 minutes ago, checkrail said:

I've always had one in the back of my mind.  I suppose that the reason the idea keeps getting shelved in favour of other projects is due to my limited knowledge of the prototypes and even more of the the RTR offerings.  

Hello John

 

My colleagues of The 00 Poll Team plus a 'co-opted' member will be happy to help if needed. 

 

Brian

[Harlequin]

32 minutes ago, checkrail said:

I've always had one in the back of my mind.  I suppose that the reason the idea keeps getting shelved in favour of other projects is due to my limited knowledge of the prototypes and even more of the the RTR offerings.  I think more than one firm has done a 6-wheel milk tanker but seem to remember comment that they had various shortcomings.   So obviously I like Robin's @gwrrobsuggestion to Rapido!

 

The other reason is that I'm running out of storage space!  The fiddle yard is full and there's limited room in the loft for any more storage units. 

 

But the operational scenario you suggest is an attractive one.

 

John C.

 

 

 

 

There's a new book on milk traffic coming this year, I hear, from our friend @Karhedron.

 

By your period I think milk would mostly be transported in 6-wheel tanker wagons (MILTAs) but a small amount, maybe destined for special purposes, might still have been moved in churns in vans. (I know you have churns stood on your platform, so some milk van traffic is justified.) Those vans would primarily be Siphons of various descriptions, of course, including the larger bogie versions and the odd passenger brake van.

 

I don't know if any of the current RTR 6-wheel MILTAs are correct for the prototypes of the region and period but I do know that they are very prone to derailing because they tend to rock on the centre axle!

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Have you got a milk train, John? I can't remember seeing one.

 

It would be coming through from Plymouth early in the morning and maybe stopping to pick up some vans brought down from Earlsbridge.

 

In the Winter 1949 STT the 12.35 Penzance - Kensingtom, Weekedays,  Milk was at Plymouth 15.42 - 16.20 and Totnes  17,00 - 1714.  The second Weekday milk train left Penzance at 18.20, Plymouth 21.38 - 22.05 and passed Totnes at 22/54.  

 

On Sundays the first one left Penzance at 13.15, Plymouth 16.32 - 16.40 to change engines, 17.24 - 17,35 at Totnes.  The second one left Penzance at 17.40, 21.14 - 21.45 at Plymouth, 22.26 - 2259 at Totnes.

 

The number of West of England Milk Trains changed ob ver the years basically normallt r running in later years as a single train starting from St Erth but they normally started sometime in the afternoon or early evening in order to achieve the required early morning arrival in the London area.  For example in the early 1960s, probably by then diesel hauled the 17.40 (SE URS, ec x Penzance passed Hanwelljust after 04.50 (it the turned left to head for Kensington via North Acton and Viaduct Jcn,  What had become by then a Westbury starter Milk terminated at Paddington at 02.00 although Miltas wiuld be going to Kensington oe west Ealing 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

 

Wasn't there going to be a book published on their operation by a RMweb member at one time.

Yes - presumably what started as 'Kaehedron's book as noted by Phil ('Harlequin').  It was being progressed with the publisher, and with further research underway, last year so I wouldn't be surprised if it lands on our bookshelves this year.  It's going to be a very impressive piece of work judging by what we've heard about milk working from the author on RMweb and i do wonder if we'll need secially strngthened shelves to support it?

 

I';m fairly sure - but I am relying on childhood memory taht some moilk in churns was still being carried by passenger train in the 1950s as I'm syre that my uncle used to sometimes take some to Challow station.  However I also remember Job's dairy calling at the farm to collect milk in churns so things might have changed in the early '50s?

Edited February 17, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Harlequin]

13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In the Winter 1949 STT the 12.35 Penzance - Kensingtom, Weekedays,  Milk was at Plymouth 15.42 - 16.20 and Totnes  17,00 - 1714.  The second Weekday milk train left Penzance at 18.20, Plymouth 21.38 - 22.05 and passed Totnes at 22/54.  

 

On Sundays the first one left Penzance at 13.15, Plymouth 16.32 - 16.40 to change engines, 17.24 - 17,35 at Totnes.  The second one left Penzance at 17.40, 21.14 - 21.45 at Plymouth, 22.26 - 2259 at Totnes.

 

The number of West of England Milk Trains changed ob ver the years basically normallt r running in later years as a single train starting from St Erth but they normally started sometime in the afternoon or early evening in order to achieve the required early morning arrival in the London area.  For example in the early 1960s, probably by then diesel hauled the 17.40 (SE URS, ec x Penzance passed Hanwelljust after 04.50 (it the turned left to head for Kensington via North Acton and Viaduct Jcn,  What had become by then a Westbury starter Milk terminated at Paddington at 02.00 although Miltas wiuld be going to Kensington oe west Ealing 

Thanks. Yes, I wondered about a morning passing time after I'd posted - it didn't seem quite right.

I'll have to go check where I read that.

 

[Danemouth]

One of my childhhod memories was the milk train. My grandparents lived in Railway Strret, Splott in Cardiff - which backed onto a large number of goods sidings. At the far side (Pearl Street) was the SWML. Each evening, IIRC five o'clockish the milk train went through from I think Whitland to my young eyes there were lots of milk tanksm- it also had a couple of coaches which I now suspect were brakes. All seen from the back bedroom window 😀

 

If only I had the camera I now have in those days ..... he sighs

 

I do remember seeing a Corden in those sidings and asking what it was.

 

Dave

[BWsTrains]

23 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Have you got a milk train, John? I can't remember seeing one.

 

It would be coming through from Plymouth early in the morning and maybe stopping to pick up some vans brought down from Earlsbridge.

 

 

I very much hope so!  It'll also need to stop off later at Cullompton for the incoming Milk ex Upper Hembury by my plans.

[checkrail]

Tail ends this morning.

 

John C.

[gwrrob]

19 hours ago, checkrail said:

I've always had one in the back of my mind.  I suppose that the reason the idea keeps getting shelved in favour of other projects is due to my limited knowledge of the prototypes and even more of the the RTR offerings.  I think more than one firm has done a 6-wheel milk tanker but seem to remember comment that they had various shortcomings.  

 

The other reason is that I'm running out of storage space! 

 

 

I've just had a cunning idea John.😉

[Karhedron]

On 17/02/2023 at 15:58, Harlequin said:

I don't know if any of the current RTR 6-wheel MILTAs are correct for the prototypes of the region and period but I do know that they are very prone to derailing because they tend to rock on the centre axle!

 

Neither of the current milk tanks models are entirely accurate as both seem to contain a mix of features. Hopefully something better will be on the way soon.

 

On 17/02/2023 at 17:09, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - presumably what started as 'Kaehedron's book as noted by Phil ('Harlequin').  It was being progressed with the publisher, and with further research underway, last year so I wouldn't be surprised if it lands on our bookshelves this year.  It's going to be a very impressive piece of work judging by what we've heard about milk working from the author on RMweb and i do wonder if we'll need specially strngthened shelves to support it?

 

I';m fairly sure - but I am relying on childhood memory taht some moilk in churns was still being carried by passenger train in the 1950s as I'm syre that my uncle used to sometimes take some to Challow station.  However I also remember Job's dairy calling at the farm to collect milk in churns so things might have changed in the early '50s?

 

Hopefully my milk train book will hit the shelves this summer. 🤞

 

Yes, churn traffic was still around in the 1950s although it went into quite a sharp decline after the 1955 ASLEF strike. The last churn traffic I have been able to find was actually 1966/7 which was cream for the holiday resorts on the Isle of Thanet. I believe by this time they were carried in the brake compartment of the EMUs.

[checkrail]

Here are the two new Rapido vans, now somewhat toned down.  They were too nice to be seen only momentarily passing in a through goods train, so I did a bit more work on them to add them to the 'shuntable' pool of wagons.  This involves adding friction and/or brass axles, and stripping out any other ferrous metal bits to stop the wagons running towards the fixed uncoupling magnets.  The Rapido wagons are extremely free running. When I put one on the track straight out of the box it ran about 3 inches of its own accord towards the nearest magnet. On removing the coupling mounts and separating body and underframe one finds a large, thin, flat steel ballast plate.  These were discarded and replaced with roughly the same weight of lead sheet, glued to the van floors.  

 

 

I currently have about 80-odd wagons of which about a third are in the 'shuntable' pool.  You might ask why I don't convert them all.  The answer is that none of my locos can pull 20 such wagons, though they easily manage 10 which is the capacity of the goods yard loop.

 

John C.

Edited February 20, 2023 by checkrail
sticky key

[checkrail]

Not knowing very much about SR wagons I thought it might be instructive to compare the standard SR van, as produced some years ago by Bachmann, with the ex-SECR vehicle from which it was obviously derived. They're very similar, but with the SR van having a somewhat simpler door arrangement.  Also the SR van is longer.  Is this correct or was it just Bachmann stretching things (literally) to fit a standard underframe?  (Didn't they do something similar with their LMS cattle wagon?)  Anyway, two nice models.  The trade has provided quite an array of SR and constituent company models over the last couple of years or so.  Plenty of GWR stuff on the way too.  Guess it will be the turn of the LMS next?

 

John C.

 

 

[checkrail]

I thought I'd run out of ne photographic angles but AFAIK this is the first time I've managed a shot which shows the back of the signal box - or some of it at least.   We also get to see expresses passing on the main lines to the right, balanced out by the shunting activity on the left.  And none of the great void in view!

 

I sometimes spend a pleasant half hour shunting the yard, pausing the action now and then to run other trains through on up and down main lines.  Other times I just let two trains do the roundy-roundy thing indefinitely while I concentrate on what's going on in the yard.  

 

John C. 

[Coach bogie]

16 hours ago, checkrail said:

 

 

John C.

 

 

A batch of similar 'Southern' vans was built for the GWR painted in GW Grey livery during the war.144678 has been restored at The Gloucester  - Warwickshire  Railway in GWR condition.

 

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8IeGjBeM48I/YOS5q4aPN0I/AAAAAAAARBU/SKGP9wot1tEX10zqz8lwAO8VsowbyUbigCPcBGAsYHg/s0/IMG_20210701_150013.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Fishplate]

10 hours ago, checkrail said:

I sometimes spend a pleasant half hour shunting the yard, pausing the action now and then to run other trains through on up and down main lines.  Other times I just let two trains do the roundy-roundy thing indefinitely while I concentrate on what's going on in the yard. 

 

Me too. . . . . . . .👍.

 

Not been able to do that though for a couple of years following the house move. However, resolution of  that situation is in sight .

[chris45lsw]

On 20/02/2023 at 14:29, checkrail said:

Not knowing very much about SR wagons I thought it might be instructive to compare the standard SR van, as produced some years ago by Bachmann, with the ex-SECR vehicle from which it was obviously derived. They're very similar, but with the SR van having a somewhat simpler door arrangement.  Also the SR van is longer.  Is this correct or was it just Bachmann stretching things (literally) to fit a standard underframe?  (Didn't they do something similar with their LMS cattle wagon?)  Anyway, two nice models.  The trade has provided quite an array of SR and constituent company models over the last couple of years or so.  Plenty of GWR stuff on the way too.  Guess it will be the turn of the LMS next?

 

John C.

 

 

The SECR vans were 17ft over headstocks with a 9ft 6in wheelbase.  The SR development was to the 1923 RCH length of 17ft 6in, at first 9ft wb, later 10ft.  The Bachman Sr van is the correct length.  Another difference is that the SECR van has a single end vent while the SR ones have two.

 

Chris KT

[checkrail]

8 hours ago, chris45lsw said:

The SECR vans were 17ft over headstocks with a 9ft 6in wheelbase.  The SR development was

Thanks for this info Chris.  Nice to know the Bachmann SR van is correctly dimensioned. And yes, I noticed the vent differences.