Southern's Timetable Reduction

[Coryton]

The thing is the more frequent a train service - the more akin it becomes to simply jumping in your car (which is a true 'turn up and go' experience).

 

 

When it's not a "turn up and sit in a traffic jam" experience...

[phil-b259]

When it's not a "turn up and sit in a traffic jam" experience...

 

But even if you do get stuck in traffic en-route its not like you have to wait to get in your car and start moving. True you may not get very far but from a physiological angle, the act of getting into the car and starting the journey is 'commencing the journey' in the same way boarding a train at a station is. What happens en-route is to a certain extent a secondary consideration because if the car / train isn't there in the first place then the journey cannot be made anyway.

[John M Upton]

Correcting a few things mentioned so far, Sunday services to/from Victoria via Haywards Heath split at Worthing for Portsmouth and Littlehampton, not Southampton.

Twelve car 377's can be formed of three car units and indeed are quite regularly.

 

Five car 377's are not supposed to operate on the Coastway or south of Horsham but the odd one has escaped due to stock allocation errors, I took one down the Arun Valley late one night and was amazed when a couple of enthusiasts turned out at Barnham to photograph it at just past midnight!!

 

As an aside 313's are not supposed to go to Southampton but have escaped there occasionally, one Sunday I took one there with more enthusiasts than normal passengers on board... 

[phil_sutters]

I never understood the logic in singling the Seaford branch in the first place though it was done at a time of falling traffic and when there was an outside chance that it might have closed entirely.  Newhaven boat traffic has declined and vanished.  Power limitations are an ongoing issue I believe as Seaford is a single-end feed meaning long trains are not an option and there's precious little current for two to run together beyond Newhaven.

 

I can't see a problem with one of the Brightons becoming a Newhaven once or twice in the peaks.  It would inconvenience a few passengers from Seaford and Bishopstone but not as many as will be inconvenienced if Southern get their way and enforce changes at Lewes into already-full trains.  

 

I have never approved of the current modus operandi whereby the east and west coast routes each have a half-hourly direct train of four cars with the split / attach at Haywards Heath.  That has created overcrowding sometimes to dangerous levels and extended journey times to match pre-electrification timings of over 80 years ago.  The dwell time at Haywards Heath is used to allow Brighton expresses to run through and allegedly increases line capacity by so doing. It isn't beyond the bounds of sanity to simply exchange paths and have an 8 (or ideally 12) car train running complete to each coastal route hourly as always used to be the case.  Most of them were 12-car until the Electrostars arrived though with a unit detached at Worthing and Eastbourne as longer trains posed problems beyond those locations and the capacity wasn't needed outside peak times.  

 

I have even suggested to Southern that a 12-car train once an hour offers more seats than a 4-car train every half hour to which they replied that no, it doesn't, because the existing trains run twice an hour.  The arithmetic does not add up.  Someone in Southern is spinning fog which I can see straight through.

 Power limitations are an ongoing issue I believe as Seaford is a single-end feed meaning long trains are not an option and there's precious little current for two to run together beyond Newhaven.

 

Eight-car 377s regularly run up the Seaford branch on home match days. They serve Brighton & Hove Albion's Amex stadium at Falmer. 

 

[royaloak]

  I understnad there are technical reasons why four 377/3 units cannot be run together and possibly an issue of overall length by an inch or two.

They used to regularly run 4x377/3s on the fast Brightons, I cant see why they cant run them in that formation now, the length issue could be real but if having 2 extra driving coaches in the formation (a whole 78cms longer) is an issue then how tight are the platforms?

[John M Upton]

As I already mentioned, 12 car 4 x 3 car 377 formations are still in use although weekend usage of 2 x 377 five cars on the Brighton Express services is more to do with the fact ten cars can be DOO (at the moment) whereas twelve cars can not.

 

Now a twelve car 700 on the other hand has a problem, amazingly they are too long for Gatwick Airport and thus you have to be in the front eleven coaches of one of those horrible things.

[Brian Kirby]

surely it's important to keep through trains to Newhaven, for the ferry connection, 

 

The ferries are only two - one in the day and one at night, during most of the year. I think they have been running an  additional ferry in the summer months and that was going to Le Havre. I would guess that there is very little traffic that comes by rail. You rarely see foot passengers at all, it's mostly Spanish & Portugese trucks, cars and caravans.

I have yet had a chance to look at the details of the proposals, beyond the Seaford branch. Are they going to stop joining and splitting trains at Haywards Heath? Eastbourne/Ore trains often have to split from Littlehampton ones there.

I stand corrected about the ferries at Newhaven, I didn't realize the service was so run-down?         BK

[John M Upton]

The Newhaven to Dieppe ferry has been hanging by a thread for years.  I am amazed its still going to be honest.

[phil-b259]

The Newhaven to Dieppe ferry has been hanging by a thread for years.  I am amazed its still going to be honest.

 

It only does so because the French department (Seine-Maritime) responsible for the Dieppe pays the operators a large subsidy to run it - indeed I believe the two ships are owned by them as well. Having said that, with all the problems around Calais with the migrants (and the striking My Ferry Link crews last year) loadings are on the up so it looks like it will be around for a while yet.

 

There are however frequent complaints / threats from the French pull the financial lifeline the service needs (despite the upturn in traffic) unless East Sussex council starts contributing - which is of course a non starter as as far as the British Government is concerned, as they take the view cross channel ferry operations must be entirely commercial operations with no state aid whatsoever. As far as the UK government are concerned it is the French who are at fault (for subsidising a service that clearly cannot survive as a true commercial entity) and Whitehall couldn't care less if the operation folded next week.

 

This stance is completely at odds with the French approch where rather than leaving things to the 'power of the market', French Government (local and national) is encouraged to retain a sizeable stake in everything from banks to food producers and steel works to train builders, not just defence firms (which is only done in the UK to keep the Americans happy) and factor in a wide range of social matters into their deliberation rather than a narrow profit / loss analysis favoured by successive British Governments (the finance provided by the French is justified on the basis of revenues generated by tourism to the region facilitated by the link, the costs of paying benefits to those made redundant if the service shuts, etc). Indeed I believe that attempts by Kraft to take over a French dairy foods producer was thwarted by the simple expedient of declaring the producer a business 'vital for national security' and thus requiring (by law) the majority of shareholders to be French, yet the British Government took the view that the takeover of Cabury was something that should be left to 'market forces'

[phil_sutters]

Gatwick expansion!?! I thought I'd just throw that thought into the debate.

[Gwiwer]

As I already mentioned, 12 car 4 x 3 car 377 formations are still in use although weekend usage of 2 x 377 five cars on the Brighton Express services is more to do with the fact ten cars can be DOO (at the moment) whereas twelve cars can not.

 

Now a twelve car 700 on the other hand has a problem, amazingly they are too long for Gatwick Airport and thus you have to be in the front eleven coaches of one of those horrible things.

 

I shall try for as long as possible to avoid being in any part of those horrible things.  Electrostars cover the options south of the Thames and I very seldom need to venture north beyond the London Travelcard / Lobster Zones.

[cromptonnut]

I place this here without further comment, from tonight's Twitter feed.  The "broken down train" was apparently a ballast working down to the Bluebell.

 

[phil-b259]

I place this here without further comment, from tonight's Twitter feed.  The "broken down train" was apparently a ballast working down to the Bluebell.

 

 

 

Hardly Southern's fault is it? 377s don't come with buffers and drawgear to shove a freight out the way do they.

 

I wonder who the FOC concerned is - they will be facing a pretty big bill for all this.

[cromptonnut]

I wonder who the FOC concerned is - they will be facing a pretty big bill for all this.

 

It was 6Y05 Grain Foster Yeoman GBRF to East Grinstead Sidings that broke down, originally at Sanderstead then struggled on to Dormans before dying completely.

 

The rescue loco came from Tonbridge as 1Z99 Tonbridge West Yard Gbrf to Dormans.

 

I'll guess it's GBRF then.

[jonathan452]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Can Thameslink deliver on new promises for improved rail service? www.hertsad.co.uk/news/can_thameslink_deliver_on_new_promises_for_improved_rail_service_1_4708712

[Coryton]

I knew that - at least at smaller stations - ticket office staff on Southern have various duties round the station.

 

But I was a bit surprised today to see that the duties include daily maintenance of the hot drinks machine.

 

 

[John M Upton]

All Arun Valley services are DOO(P) north of Three Bridges to London Terminals as of Monday along with 377 operated services between Dorking and Horsham (the 455's have to keep guards as no on board DOO screens of course).

 

All the sticking the head in the sand with fingers in the ears going 'wibble' by the RMT hoping it would all go away has completely, utterly and dismally failed, they are just doing it anyway!!

[Gwiwer]

Meanwhile at Brighton where six trains an hour are timetabled to leave for Coastway West (five if one discounts the currently-suspended Southampton trains) things go from bad to dangerous .....

 

This from BiL who spent over two hours trying to make a 25-minute journey home before summoning a lift.  And as he says, this is almost a daily fiasco and has been for months.  There is effectively no need to pay a fare because everyone claims Delay Repay.

 

 

 

Service to Worthing is now one an hour, three carriages, unable to board as it was full to capacity.

When does it get dangerous. Several people coming off this train were nearly knocked onto the track as they were unable to make their way down the platform due to the totally uncontrolled crush to board, including one guy pushing his way through

[Coryton]

Meanwhile at Brighton where six trains an hour are timetabled to leave for Coastway West (five if one discounts the currently-suspended Southampton trains) things go from bad to dangerous .....

 

 

While of course it's much easier to criticise than make things work, I do find it surprising how much confusion there still is when there is disruption given that it's now the norm.

 

Yesterday afternoon they were cancelling the Southampton/Portsmouth portion of the Arun Valley trains.

 

I was on the Bognor portion of one which still ran. A few stations before Barnham I saw on my phone that it was now terminating at Bognor - a reasonable decision.

 

But it seems as usual nobody told the crew. I got off at Barnham as planned, to hear a platform announcement that everybody should get off and cross the platform to continue to Bognor. But it took a few minutes before someone was able to tell the train crew who then made the announcement on the train where it needed to be made. Meanwhile the departure board was showing it as a Portsmouth Harbour train. This sort of thing is all too common.

 

I find it somewhat depressing that despite the fact that as a passenger I could see the train was stopping short, there doesn't seem to be any way of informing the crew. I realise it might not be appropriate for guards to trust live departure boards and inform passengers accordingly, but I would have thought by now Southern might have come up with a system that worked to inform crew of changes (even if just a web page and some cheap smart phones handed out).

[John M Upton]

We have expensive smart phones (rather poorly designs (in my opinion) in the form of Microsoft Lumia 640XL's.  Despite all this technology at our fingertips we train crew as you have correctly surmised are usually the last to find out about any last minute changes (the road being set for Bognor when we should be going towards Portsmouth/Southampton is usually the first indication we get that something is up!) not helped by the mobile phone signal between Horsham and Barnham varying between not a lot and sod all!!

[cromptonnut]

... and any information I tell anyone at the ticket window could have changed by the time they put their ticket through the barrier and reached the platform.

 

From the outside, many think it should just be an easy thing - but those of us on the inside know how quickly things can change, with platform alterations, Control making decisions that seem bizarre to the rest of us, whilst those of us on the "front line" are getting yelled at for giving out "wrong" information.

 

"Do you think the trains will be ok next wednesay" (or similar) is a common question, and I just reply there is no planned disruption (or if there is, what it is) but if I could look into the future with any amount of certainty I'd know the lottery numbers and not be here.  It usually raises a grin if nothing else, and people realise the futility of their enquiry.

[phil-b259]

It would seem as though Southern's management (aka the DfT) have bitten the bullet and are going to start sacking guards if the RMT continues with its strike action. To be honest this shouldn't come as a surprise - with a dispute that has gone on for this long and with the ideological battle behind it still raging it was inevitable that this would happen

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37539851

 

On a separate (but related) note Southern's (or again the DfTs) attempt to try and get passengers to vent their anger on the RMT doesn't appear to have gone as planned....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37538391

[Gwiwer]

A double own-goal?  You couldn't make it up.

 

First they are critically understaffed yet seem set to dismiss some of the precious few they have - and which will no doubt seriously pee sorff many of those who remain

Second they disrupt the travel plans of millions over many months and cause mayhem, inconvenience and distress - then expect these say folk to advocate FOR them?

 

Just how inept is this pack of circus clowns?  No slur intended upon any current staff willing and attempting to do their best in ridiculous circumstances.

[phil-b259]

A double own-goal?  You couldn't make it up.

 

First they are critically understaffed yet seem set to dismiss some of the precious few they have - and which will no doubt seriously pee sorff many of those who remain

Second they disrupt the travel plans of millions over many months and cause mayhem, inconvenience and distress - then expect these say folk to advocate FOR them?

 

Just how inept is this pack of circus clowns?  No slur intended upon any current staff willing and attempting to do their best in ridiculous circumstances.

 

True - but the staff concerned are guards who will be surplus to requirements as DOO is being rolled out over the next few moths as planned. Basically Guards have been told if you want a job - become an OBS, start training for another role (e.g. driver - which GTR are chronically short of apparently) or leave. As someone said not that dissimilar to the approch taken by certain ministers back in the 80s when conflict between Government and certain unions was rife...... I'm sure a certain PW is very pleased with Southern's new stance..

 

In other words around 7 months of industrial action have done absolutely nothing to halt the DfTs grand plan and merely caused hardship to both staff and passengers. All totally predictable while a Conservative administration is in charge of the wheels of Government and something the RMT need to pay attention to rather than this head in the sand routine they are carrying on with.

[cromptonnut]

In other words around 7 months of industrial action have done absolutely nothing to halt the DfTs grand plan and merely caused hardship to both staff and passengers. All totally predictable while a Conservative administration is in charge of the wheels of Government and something the RMT need to pay attention to rather than this head in the sand routine they are carrying on with.

 

You wouldn't accept "take a new job or there's the door" in any other job - and no doubt most of those critical of the union's stance wouldn't accept it either - so why should rail staff do so?

 

I've had a lot of very interesting comments from people today who cannot believe the "PR stunt" and how badly it has backfired for them.