Southern's Timetable Reduction

[jjb1970]

You wouldn't accept "take a new job or there's the door" in any other job - and no doubt most of those critical of the union's stance wouldn't accept it either - so why should rail staff do so?

Personally, and this is just me, but if the relationship got to that point I'd go and get another job off my own volition. Nobody is tied to a job or an employer, if things are that bad then my advice is to look for something better.

[caradoc]

You wouldn't accept "take a new job or there's the door" in any other job - and no doubt most of those critical of the union's stance wouldn't accept it either - so why should rail staff do so?

 

I had to do exactly that when I was displaced by BR in 1987. I also had to move house so that I could get to my new job.

[cromptonnut]

Personally, and this is just me, but if the relationship got to that point I'd go and get another job off my own volition. Nobody is tied to a job or an employer, if things are that bad then my advice is to look for something better.

 

Many people I know now are.

 

Then there won't be any staff left to operate anything.  No ticket offices, no gateline (just one person unable to do much), driver only trains that self despatch so no need for platform staff either.

 

That's why we are fighting to save our jobs, and for passenger safety.

[jjb1970]

Many people I know now are.

 

Then there won't be any staff left to operate anything.  No ticket offices, no gateline (just one person unable to do much), driver only trains that self despatch so no need for platform staff either.

 

That's why we are fighting to save our jobs, and for passenger safety.

But there will be, one of the only things that forces a company to give in to labour demands is if their business is at risk of failing because they can't get staff. If there is a mass exodus then either GTR will make staff a good offer to remain or they'll have to risk interruptions while they hire and train new staff.

And whilst I can understand people taking actions to try and preserve T&Cs, I really can't see that this is about safety.

[surfsup]

If anyone hasn't yet seen the advert appearing in today's Metro & Evening Standard amongst other newspapers, here it is. An own goal by Connex Charlie's team is a bit of an understatement i'd say. I would also rather be interested to know how much GTR is paying out for this new 'campaign' considering that it apparently costs £60,000 for a full page spread in the Metro.

[The Stationmaster]

You wouldn't accept "take a new job or there's the door" in any other job - and no doubt most of those critical of the union's stance wouldn't accept it either - so why should rail staff do so?

 

 

 

While it certainly wasn't put as crassly as that the situation on BR from the late 1950s onwards was exactly that - tens of thousands of jobs vanished and for those affected it literally meant take another job on the railways either doing something else or doing the same thing somewhere else or both of those options - or it meant 'you're down the road'.  I was on BR for 34 years and I was either without a minuted post or literally rendered redundant 8 times in that period and compared to many I was a beginner in the redundancy stakes.  I was also moved from south east England to South Wales with absolutely no choice in the matter (not that it worried me and in any case that wasn't redundancy but I was still 'sent' rather than asked if I wanted to go.

 

So what is happening now in terms of its effect on jobs and those in them is nothing new for the railway industry.  Mind you the incompetent and crass manner in which it is happening, aided and abetted by dimwitted, seemingly politically inspired, stupidity of the RMT is definitely very different from the way BR handled far bigger upheavals in working practices. 

[phil-b259]

You wouldn't accept "take a new job or there's the door" in any other job - and no doubt most of those critical of the union's stance wouldn't accept it either - so why should rail staff do so?

 

Yes you would - as many a Private sector employee will attest. Such an approch to industrial relations is surprisingly common when it comes to the need to make grater profit for City shareholders.

 

The railways have in many respects been shielded from such things for many years, however as was clearly stated in the McNaulty report the Government believes things must change.

 

Whether you or I agree or disagree with the policies it calls for is irrelevant, the Government have made it abundantly clear they will continue to be pursued with vigour until 2020 at the earliest. As the Iron Lady once put it "To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the 'U-turn', I have only one thing to say: 'You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning." Her successors are continuing this approch.

 

The only way of changing this Pro McNulty agenda is to change the Government - which won't happen until 2020.

 

Personally, as a railway employee I am very much aware that in future years I will probably get a raw deal. I started under AMEC who had pretty good T&Cs before being TUPED into NR, but I am given to understand things were very different if you used to work for Jarvis. With the UK having voted to leave the EU, the requirement to separate infrastructure operations will disappear leaving all sorts of interesting options open to the Treasury to smash up, what they regard as an inefficient state body, ripe for a bit of free market expertise to whip it into shape and I doubt strikes by the RMT will do anything to change their mind.

 

I would also observe that unlike the hundreds of Jarvis employees who found themselves out of work when the company went bust (many of whom only got hired by other companies by taking a big cut in wages  & T/Cs), Southern have said OBS jobs are available for everyone who wants them and wages / T&Cs are unchanged.

[david.hill64]

Yes you would - as many a Private sector employee will attest. Such an approch to industrial relations is surprisingly common when it comes to the need to make grater profit for City shareholders.

 

The railways have in many respects been shielded from such things for many years, however as was clearly stated in the McNaulty report the Government believes things must change.

 

Whether you or I agree or disagree with the policies it calls for is irrelevant, the Government have made it abundantly clear they will continue to be pursued with vigour until 2020 at the earliest. As the Iron Lady once put it "To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the 'U-turn', I have only one thing to say: 'You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning." Her successors are continuing this approch.

 

The only way of changing this Pro McNulty agenda is to change the Government - which won't happen until 2020.

 

Personally, as a railway employee I am very much aware that in future years I will probably get a raw deal. I started under AMEC who had pretty good T&Cs before being TUPED into NR, but I am given to understand things were very different if you used to work for Jarvis. With the UK having voted to leave the EU, the requirement to separate infrastructure operations will disappear leaving all sorts of interesting options open to the Treasury to smash up, what they regard as an inefficient state body, ripe for a bit of free market expertise to whip it into shape and I doubt strikes by the RMT will do anything to change their mind.

 

I would also observe that unlike the hundreds of Jarvis employees who found themselves out of work when the company went bust (many of whom only got hired by other companies by taking a big cut in wages  & T/Cs), Southern have said OBS jobs are available for everyone who wants them and wages / T&Cs are unchanged.

It's not confined to UK companies either: I have been obliged to move country before now and if you think moving within the UK is disruptive, doing so between countries/cultures is a completely different story! Of course we are paid proportionately in recognition of this.

 

As the Stationmaster has pointed out, in BR days moving was something that was part of the job either on promotion or because your current role ceased to exist. Without knowing the details of what Southern is offering, they do seem to be offering reasonable terms following the BR model.

 

I thought that the McNulty report was seriously flawed and designed to support a pre-ordained conclusion but it has supported shaped government thinking and I think your expectation that there will be a change of government in 2020 may be unrealised. The industry does need to get costs under control but it is not easy to see where the savings can be made. Privatisation has introduced additional overhead costs but these are marginal compared to the increased costs of wages and safety. Nobody will tolerate deliberate reductions in safety so the main target is going to be reducing wage costs, hopefully by increasing productivity rather than through staffing or wage levels. In an industry that is still expanding there are opportunities to do so that BR never had. If RMT had taken a more constructive attitude they could probably have secured much better long term security for its members. Its approach is more likely to result in a hardening of attitude that potentially could be detrimental to the wider union movement. None of this is intended as a vindication of DafT or its politically inept overpaid mouthpiece.

[cromptonnut]

 Nobody will tolerate deliberate reductions in safety so the main target is going to be reducing wage costs, hopefully by increasing productivity rather than through staffing or wage levels.

 

Without going into details (as I'm not supposed to talk about work stuff)... most places I know are understaffed already, for most of us pay isn't that excessive.

 

Where cuts could be made are the amount of pointless levels of overpaid management and ridiculous bonuses to management when the workers get nothing, despite already being stretched and getting abuse all day long from angry commuters when none of the problems are even our fault.  It seems passengers are unable to differentiate between "the company" and "the front line who are desperately trying to keep things running".

[Coryton]

If anyone hasn't yet seen the advert appearing in today's Metro & Evening Standard amongst other newspapers, here it is. An own goal by Connex Charlie's team is a bit of an understatement i'd say. I would also rather be interested to know how much GTR is paying out for this new 'campaign' considering that it apparently costs £60,000 for a full page spread in the Metro.

 

And it's fairly irrelevant to most of the UK too.

 

Today they have two half page adverts.

 

One of them says: "More trains than today will have a safety-trained person aboard."

 

I would hope that all their trains already have at least one safety-trained person on them - at the front in the cab.

 

I don't know what they're trying to say - are they planning on putting on-board staff on DOO trains that previously ran with just a driver?

[Gwiwer]

Of academic interest in all of this is the minor detail that I shall be seeking employment in the SW London area (or readily accessible therefrom) during the first part of next year.  My long history in the industry around the world seems to count for nothing as most operators are shedding staff in all areas except driving.  It goes without saying that Southern is not on my list of prospective employers. I'd rather sign on.

[John M Upton]

Now, has anyone noticed that in the middle of all this a couple of weeks ago that Southern got a shiny new logo and poster style design?  The logo is in fact exactly the same as the old one but the colours were tweaked (at what cost I dread to think!!) to be softer and more open, that is according to the email I got about it that I had to read three times to make sure I wasn't in fact dreaming!!!

[The Stationmaster]

Without going into details (as I'm not supposed to talk about work stuff)... most places I know are understaffed already, for most of us pay isn't that excessive.

 

Where cuts could be made are the amount of pointless levels of overpaid management and ridiculous bonuses to management when the workers get nothing, despite already being stretched and getting abuse all day long from angry commuters when none of the problems are even our fault.  It seems passengers are unable to differentiate between "the company" and "the front line who are desperately trying to keep things running".

 

The question of course is 'what is understaffing'?  Our local branch terminus issued 105,000 tickets in 1923, in 2015 the estimated number of 'entries' (based on ticket sales and survey information) was 385,000 and it probably included far more season ticket holders than had been the case 92 years previously.  I don't know the figure for 1923 but in 1960 the station's paybill was just over 60 people - today it is one part timer, goods & parcels traffic have gone, trains have been dieselised then reduced to DOO(P), track & signalling has been massively rationalised and maintenance mechanised so the branch PW gang (included in that 60) have also gone.  One of the intermediate stations had about half a dozen staff in 1960 and the other 3 or 4 - all of those jobs have gone and those stations are far busier today than they have ever been in the past.

 

So is the line now 'understaffed' because it is carrying far more passengers, or is it correctly and efficiently staffed for the level of present day business?

 

And of course it has always been the case on the railway, as in many other businesses that passengers and customers see the frontline people as that company for the simple reason that is what they are in contact with.  Regrettable, not necessarily comfortable but none the less true, and of course whatever your job among the many which are needed to run a railway you are the one who will always be responsible, simply 'because you're there.  If you don't like or can't put up with it then JJB offered so realistic advice a little earlier in this thread and of course that is exactly what many have done over the years.

Of academic interest in all of this is the minor detail that I shall be seeking employment in the SW London area (or readily accessible therefrom) during the first part of next year.  My long history in the industry around the world seems to count for nothing as most operators are shedding staff in all areas except driving.  It goes without saying that Southern is not on my list of prospective employers. I'd rather sign on.

 

 

The situation varies an enormous amount I think Rick.  If you want an on-train job (other than driving) then previous passenger facing experience could be to your adavantage.  If you want an HQ type office job then there are one or two areas where people with specialised skills are snapped up as soon as they put their head over the parapet (although the pay might not necessarily reflect that need) but many organisations seem to be dead set against taking on folk with proper railway operating experience into managerial roles, probably because they're afraid of being shown up by professionals (yes, I am biased) so if you admit to knowing little or nothing but are 'the right type' then the world's your managerial oyster.  (Yes, there still are some good 'uns in there but many have gone as unwanted)

[phil-b259]

Now, has anyone noticed that in the middle of all this a couple of weeks ago that Southern got a shiny new logo and poster style design?  The logo is in fact exactly the same as the old one but the colours were tweaked (at what cost I dread to think!!) to be softer and more open, that is according to the email I got about it that I had to read three times to make sure I wasn't in fact dreaming!!!

 

As far as I am concerned, a logo is a logo - and like you I wonder just how much it cost to get a bunch of creative types in to 'adjust' it.

 

Honestly this touchy-feely / "we must empathise with the consumer in an organic way" nonsense has gone too far these days. Trains are not the same as fabric softener, shampoo, or luxury ready meals where I guess being 'in touch' with your consumers might help increase market share.

[Foulounoux]

Personally, and this is just me, but if the relationship got to that point I'd go and get another job off my own volition. Nobody is tied to a job or an employer, if things are that bad then my advice is to look for something better.

Neatly sums up both sides of this

 

The employer has the right to say enough this is the new contract agree or leave. I would argue that Southern are actually making anyone who doesn't sign redundant as the existing position no longer exists

The employee can make that decision and it can then backfire on the employer if not enough existing employees switch to the new contract

 

We have just gone through a period where to cut costs we have moved our HQ from the lakeside of Lac Leman in Switzerland to Central Europe. So far I think one senior manager has made the move the remainder have said thanks very much but give me the money I'm out .

 

My brother was similarly forced to make a decision when his uk employer decided his position was now a Middle Eastern one and he could change to a local contract. He discussed with me and after 5 seconds understanding his current pension and redundancy terms I told him in no uncertain terms jump take the money leave and then wait for them to need you as a contractor to do the same job bug at more money

[John M Upton]

Ah but the rules of redundancy say that the job must no longer exist however after all this is over there will still be over 160 full conductors on the company's books (including myself) as they are needed to operate non DOO stock in the form of classes 171, 313 and 442 as well as 377 stock on the Kenny Belle's to Milton Keynes.

 

Also the rules of redundancy day that the role a employee is being made redundant from must not only no longer exist but any new roles must not be similar, the OBS role is exactly the same as a Conductor only without the door operations and in theory even then an OBS will if a former Conductor be able to operate the doors in an emergency like failure of DOO cameras etc.

[The Stationmaster]

Ah but the rules of redundancy say that the job must no longer exist however after all this is over there will still be over 160 full conductors on the company's books (including myself) as they are needed to operate non DOO stock in the form of classes 171, 313 and 442 as well as 377 stock on the Kenny Belle's to Milton Keynes.

 

Also the rules of redundancy day that the role a employee is being made redundant from must not only no longer exist but any new roles must not be similar, the OBS role is exactly the same as a Conductor only without the door operations and in theory even then an OBS will if a former Conductor be able to operate the doors in an emergency like failure of DOO cameras etc.

 

Very much the case.  i would assume under properly applied procedures (assuming Southern can manage that) the situation is Conductor's posts declared redundant but the occupants of those posts can easily claim identification with the new OBS posts (which are little different) and therefore immediately slot into them with - if I understand things correctly - protected basic rates of pay until the end of the current franchise.  In many respects no different at all from the way BR did things and in some respects actually better than BR standard redundancy conditions.

 

However - as was always the case on BR - if you didn't like it you could leave although where you were identifiable with the new job you were technically redundant.  Overall it's not a bad offer even if it has been atrociously handled by Southern up to now and the RMT have behaved like a bunch of two year olds albeit egged on by that dim-witted idiot at DafT.

[John M Upton]

An OBS who converts from Conductor will in fact be paid the same or even slightly more with overtime on the same T&C's, already agreed pay rise deal through to 2018 and a overtime working bonus which in effect means they will be earning the same money for doing slightly less work!!

 

I meanwhile am perfectly happy to be chuntering up and down the Coastway in my little old 313 for the foreseeable future.

 

In addition OBS's are being put onto trains on GatEx and the Brighton Main Line Southern services that are currently DOO with just the driver, the Union has been banging on for years about a second person on all trains and here it is yet they seem not to mention that this is planned in all the endless tubthumping that is being put out.

[Foulounoux]

Thanks for the clarification Yes if the new position is in effect equivalent then as long as there is a position redundancy doesn't apply or would have to be tested in a tribunal

 

A previous employer was crafty and changed my customer service manager role into a lower paid customer service supervisor role

I took the redundancy then contracted for a competitor :-) Given I had previously occupied Technical and Production Manager role I was rather valuable

 

Colin

[jjb1970]

This is just my personal attitude, but while I look at employment as a business relationship I also think work is too much a part of life to be unhappy there unless you have no option but to stay. You are selling your expertise and labour, in one sense employment starts and ends at a contractual relationship which defines the obligations of each party however good performance and also fulfilment tends to be based in enjoying what you do and being happy at work. Money is clearly important, but my own experience is if people find a job they like as a result perform well then things like pay and career progression often look after themselves. If you are not happy for any reason then money will not compensate for that. I had the argument with my last bosses who couldn't accept what everybody was telling them about why they were suffering from a terrible rate of attrition and were convinced it was all down to salary, they couldn't allow themselves to admit that bumping salaries up would have helped in the short term but fundamentally they were losing staff in droves because few wanted to relocate to Southampton and that it had nothing to do with money. I've left jobs a couple of times and taken big reductions in salary as I just felt it was a better career move and in each case my salary has not only recovered but went ahead of where I was before pretty quickly. Which is a long winded way of saying life is far too short to be miserable at work and if you really are unhappy then start looking for another job. If on the other hand you decide that the pay is more important and that you are unwilling to consider a pay cut to do something else then you should accept that decision (which is a perfectly legitimate decision) and settle down and get on with it. Just my opinion.

[surfsup]

Apparently the campaign is over, for now at least. I wonder how long it actually dawned on GTR management how unpopular this campaign was from the start?!

 

(Edited to remove names)

[cromptonnut]

I can't say I'm surprised... what surprises me more is that some professional with years of experience thought that this would turn out the way they intended.

 

I wonder if this was the final straw that has 'done a Ratner' for them?  It's interesting how they are most concerned about 'the brand' but no mention of the affect it may have had on the staff.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Perhaps the first Southern employees to be shown the door should be whoever approved this ad campaign. All Southern/GTR had to do was sit and wait; do nothing and the strikes would finally run out of support from the membership. They have now opened up a new front for the RMT, stirred up the ill feeling with the passengers and thrust the spotlight firmly back on them.

[4630]

Perhaps the first Southern employees to be shown the door should be whoever approved this ad campaign. All Southern/GTR had to do was sit and wait; do nothing and the strikes would finally run out of support from the membership. They have now opened up a new front for the RMT, stirred up the ill feeling with the passengers and thrust the spotlight firmly back on them.

And todays announcement of RMT members' acceptance of terms to resolve the similar dispute in Scotland twists the knife just a little bit more;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37560012

[Coryton]

I can't say I'm surprised... what surprises me more is that some professional with years of experience thought that this would turn out the way they intended.

 

I wonder if this was the final straw that has 'done a Ratner' for them?  It's interesting how they are most concerned about 'the brand' but no mention of the affect it may have had on the staff.

 

Seems to have been too late to stop the adverts in today's Metro.

 

And they are still saying that more trains will have a safety-trained person on board, which implies that drivers of DOO trains with no other member of staff on board aren't safety-trained which is perhaps not the message they meant to get across.

 

Interestingly, on the next page is a letter suggesting that the government strips the franchise from Southern. If it's true as has been said here that the DfT is calling the shots, then the most impressive thing is how well they have let Southern and the RMT take most of the flak.

 

The campaign does seem rather out of touch. I wonder how aware the management are of how things on the ground - standing on platform 2 at Barnham when everything has gone wrong, the screens are saying one thing and the rare announcements another, and not just passengers but the crew of arriving trains have no idea what's happening next, might be an educational experience.