Southern's Timetable Reduction

[Gwiwer]

 

 

are barrier staff authorised to physically assault passengers who cross the barrier without permission, rather than calling the police?

 

My understanding is that barrier staff are provided to assist those having difficulty, requiring specific assistance such as the disabled, without tickets for what ever reason and to answer questions.  They are expected to allow through anyone with a ticket even if it doesn't work in the gate but are at the same time under a duty to ensure revenue protection at the barrier line.  

[cromptonnut]

Even if all this was by the book, are barrier staff authorised to physically assault passengers who cross the barrier without permission, rather than calling the police?

 

No, they are not.

 

It is of course a fine line between stopping someone who is either a tickletless fare dodger or knowingly travelling with the wrong ticket, and a genuine mistake - and that decision has to be made by them in a split second, and as you say, they can get it wrong.

 

What's the alternative?  I recently intervened in an incident where several young gentlemen jumped the barriers having no ticket, and one didn't make it and was stopped.  After some harsh words with the young lad we decided to let him through with a warning not to do it again, as there was little point in calling the police (who would take 45 minutes to arrive) over a 95p ticket.  I was then shouted at by a member of the public who stood watching all of this unfolding, because *he* had a ticket and didn't see why he should have to pay to travel when hoodie didn't.  I calmly pointed out that the three young gentlemen had gone to meet their friends over at McDonalds and there were about 20 of them there (as there are most nights) and was it really worth the risk of them coming back "for a laugh", either to smash the place up, give the gateline guy a kicking or the risk of one of them possibly having a knife and doing much worse - all for less than a pound. 

 

Like many situations, whatever we do, we can't win, and there are plenty of "armchair experts" willing to criticise what we do, yet if they had been in that situation would probably have done the same rather than taken the risk.

[The Stationmaster]

The ticket wasn't actually valid, but I had a reason that I felt I should have been let on the train anyway (and which the person on the enquiry desk agreed with straight away).

 

I completely understand that the person on the barrier might not have had the authority to let me through, but he could have said so and directed me to the enquiries kiosk straight away where they did have the authority.

 

Or he could have (incorrectly, as it turned out) told me that my reason wasn't valid.

 

But instead he refused to acknowledge that I was even trying to give an explanation and just kept telling me to pay up.

 

Even if all this was by the book, are barrier staff authorised to physically assault passengers who cross the barrier without permission, rather than calling the police?

 

So while I'm sure working on the barriers isn't a terribly pleasant job, I'm afraid that I have neither understanding nor sympathy for his position.

 

Also, while I'm sure you're right to arm passengers with evidence that their valid ticket actually is valid, it's unfortunate that it's necessary. I've thought for a while that it's a bit odd (to say the least) that passengers can be penalised for making an honest mistake with tickets but we can't expect staff to understand ticket validity fully because it's so complicated, and there seems to be no penalty for train companies who don't train their staff properly even on non obscure tickets.

 

I've had a guard attempt to excess a perfectly valid (and non obscure) ticket because they misinterpreted a change in the rules - and they managed to incorrectly excess several other passengers. You might be able to guess how interested the train company was when I attempted to report this. It all seems a bit one-sided.

 

The other side of the coin is that for every genuine passenger there are probably at least 20 times that (and more in some places) trying it on and aiming to get away with something.  I very definitely do not concern staff being violent but physically restraining a passenger (or others) from attempting to enter a platform in order to board a train for which they apparently do not have a valid ticket is one where i would normally support the member of staff until the full facts are made clear.  Even on the railway of today, where many staff are comparative newcomers, I suspect they still soon get used to hearing all the excuses in the book - and I could no doubt fill a fair sized book with some of the nonsense I heard over the years.

 

I know it can be very difficult to get things through to a train company but to be honest I don't think BR was any different in that respect because it has always been the case that the dodgy spoil the pitch for the occasional honest ones.

[Gwiwer]

Worth perhaps adding here that I also take my turn on the barriers.  Not in the UK but the job is in every respect very similar.  If I were to offer the "service" one or two of us here have encountered I would expect that shift might well be my last.  We are required to open the gates on request (demand, usually, but that's beside the point) for anyone without a ticket.  Our safety is the first priority.  There are inspectors and police to manage fare evaders and antisocial behaviour.  But very few will come past me without at least receiving a comment about correct procedure and how much it may cost them in future.  Often sufficed by a respectful "Sir" or "Madam" and delivered with a smile.  Fare-paying passengers who ask why they should pay but others don't are reminded that they don't have to worry nor do they have a potential criminal record; they are doing the right thing.

 

A long way from Southern's woes but in some respects very close.  And for what it's worth our union sent a letter of solidarity today to the several unions representing Southern staff in their various disputes and which was copied to our notice-board for information.

[caradoc]

Re on-board CCTV for DOO (P) operation; This method of working has been in use for at least 15 years, as Scotrail's Class 334s have had this since their introduction in 2001.

 

Re holding (or not !) connections, the issue with this is that instead of one train running late, two are now late, andl the passengers who were already on the second train now delayed for the benefit of the connecting passengers. There are laid down instructions for holding connections, which involve service frequency and whether the last train is a factor. These can also be varied on Control authority.

However things don't always work as they should; Last week I was on a late running Paddington-Cardiff train. The Guard advised passengers for West Wales that their connection would be held at Cardiff, however on stepping off the HST at Cardiff the Class 175 could be seen departing from the other side of the island platform ! Presumably a communication falldown somewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

Re on-board CCTV for DOO (P) operation; This method of working has been in use for at least 15 years, as Scotrail's Class 334s have had this since their introduction in 2001.

 

Re holding (or not !) connections, the issue with this is that instead of one train running late, two are now late, andl the passengers who were already on the second train now delayed for the benefit of the connecting passengers. There are laid down instructions for holding connections, which involve service frequency and whether the last train is a factor. These can also be varied on Control authority.

However things don't always work as they should; Last week I was on a late running Paddington-Cardiff train. The Guard advised passengers for West Wales that their connection would be held at Cardiff, however on stepping off the HST at Cardiff the Class 175 could be seen departing from the other side of the island platform ! Presumably a communication falldown somewhere.

 

Interesting about the 334s thanks.

 

That problem at Cardiff seems to be not uncommon - I have known a number of occasions where the Guard/Conductor on the train from Paddington has said one thing (always in good faith and usually based on information from Control) only for something different to happen on arrival at Cardiff.  Hence when we had to get to Milford Haven to join the ship this year I made sure we'd get the connection from Swansea by staying there overnight the previous night  (although as it happened the London ran in smack on time)!

[royaloak]

There are a  number of complaints locally about GWR doing this - or rather not doing things in a sensible way.  However my son (and several other people) was left at our junction a few Saturdays ago when the last branch train didn't wait for the 2 minute late train from Padd - that in my view is a major disciplinary for the Driver involved (but I bet it won't be).

If the PAD train was only 2 minutes late and the 'connection' wasnt held maybe it wasnt a 'connection' in the first place!

 

What station was this please and which branch line was it?

[The Stationmaster]

If the PAD train was only 2 minutes late and the 'connection' wasnt held maybe it wasnt a 'connection' in the first place!

 

What station was this please and which branch line was it?

 

Very definitely a connection shown as such in the public timetable and on the National Rail enquiries web site.  As it happened my son was well placed for the footbridge and got to the branch platform as the branch unit was moving away and had moved no more than a couple of coach lengths.  I can't quite work out what the Driver was at as even by running early back up the branch but see what I say next (his back working on the branch showed up on Realtime trains as leaving a minute early - and I'm presuming the offset allows for the time taken for a starting train to reach the strike in point but if it doesn't then he started 90 seconds early).   The back working has a 4 minute connection into an Up train but it's possible to beat the booked branch running time without exceeding any speed restrictions and the ecs couldn't have got away for Reading any earlier unless someone is working a flanker  (I shall have to look at that and see what happens this coming weekend as there is a way the ECS could get away 10+ minutes early if it arrives at the junction 2+ minutes early).

At least 4 other people missed the connection and as it was the last train (at 23.40) I reckon that's a pretty poor show.

 

The booked connection time is 3 minutes - which complies with Timetable Planning Rules and is in fact the standard connectional margin off Down trains onto the branch.

 

I haven't checked what sort of reply my son got from GWR.

[roundhouse]

There is a crowdfunding set up to fund taking Daft   to judicial review over the whole debacle with Southern.

Day 3 and they have exceeded the initial £10k so are now going for the full £25k.

 

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/southernrail/

[stewartingram]

Anyone bothered about connections in the current environment should attempt to reach St. Ives by train ..... 

I wish I could reach St.Ives (the real one....) by train, we now have the misguided busway from Cambridge instead.

 

Stewart

[Southernman46]

Contributing nothing to the discussion but paradoxically on the DLR we have no drivers but lots of "guards"....................

[Coryton]

Contributing nothing to the discussion but paradoxically on the DLR we have no drivers but lots of "guards"....................

 

Many years ago I remember the on-train members of staff driving on manual on some parts of the route. The first time I asked why the driver wouldn't give a reason - the second time I tried the driver told me that this way the train actually stopped at the platform. I presume they sorted out these problems a long time ago.

[jjb1970]

There were a few brothers outside Victoria station today, I have to say they didn't really look very enthusiastic about their protest and appeared as disinterested in the effort as all those walking past them.

[jjb1970]

There is a crowdfunding set up to fund taking Daft   to judicial review over the whole debacle with Southern.

Day 3 and they have exceeded the initial £10k so are now going for the full £25k.

 

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/southernrail/

 

At least they're going for the right target. GTR are not covering themselves in glory and it is hard not to use words like "incompetent" when looking at some of their management decisions but for all that the real root of this dispute is DafT. DafT have been very lucky in that a combination of inept GTR handling of things and an RMT that is a government dream in terms of offering open goals at every turn has allowed DafT to avoid the opprobrium it deserves in this mess for the most part.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Not wishing to belittle anyone, but it did make me smile listening to the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning.

 

Mr Cash from the RMT was being interviewed and he used phrases like "full steam ahead" and "railroad through" (twice).

[PaulRhB]

A poem . . .

 

https://business.facebook.com/BBCSouthToday/videos/1079806778776578/

[roundhouse]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14744518.Southern_Railway_shortlisted_for_awards_including_the__Passengers_Matter__category/

[John M Upton]

Ah, just beat me to it!!   Spat my tea out all over my keyboard in disbelief when I read that!!!

[Gwiwer]

 

 

"Together with SCRP, we have really been able to make a difference to local communities."

 

Indeed they have.  Effectively withdrawing the rail service from Seaford, Newhaven and some other locations.  Creating uncertainty, misery and anger across the network.  Working hard to ensure overcrowding of those services which do run is worse than i might otherwise have been.  Quite probably the worst privatised rail operation we have yet seen.  

 

Which is a shame because Southern (Mk1) was actually rather good.

[roundhouse]

A few of us in the office who use Southern have had a good chuckle over that.

 

Just shows what a waste of paper some of these awards really are.

 

Lots of posters around at the moment making good news of full restoration of services from Monday. They still cant run the current services due to so many problems including shortage of available rolling stock. What hope do we have once is leaf season  when even more units will be taken out of use for wheel turning etc.

[cromptonnut]

... and behind all the criticism, media digs and abuse, many of us front line staff are still trying to do our best in difficult circumstances - almost all of them beyond our personal control - to get people to where they want to get to.

 

It is very tiring.

[phil-b259]

... and behind all the criticism, media digs and abuse, many of us front line staff are still trying to do our best in difficult circumstances - almost all of them beyond our personal control - to get people to where they want to get to.

 

It is very tiring.

 

Chin up mate, things will get better one day. However the railway is,and always has been the kicking post for all and sundry to vent their frustration. As was noted by another forum member it doesn't help when certain individuals / organisations (DfT, RMT, BBC, MPs, Peter Wilkinson, GTR, etc) keep stirring things and provoke the kickers more than usual.

[The Stationmaster]

... and behind all the criticism, media digs and abuse, many of us front line staff are still trying to do our best in difficult circumstances - almost all of them beyond our personal control - to get people to where they want to get to.

 

It is very tiring.

 

One of the first things you learn on the railway, especially in the front line, is that everybody else in the world can do the job better than you - ranging from the drunken inhabitants of Fleet Street (as it was in my day), to the idiots who have managed to get themselves elected to Parliament, to the halfwits who shout at and insult you on station platforms, and just about everybody else and their dog or pet hamster.  Occasionally you can get your revenge - as the then GM of the WR did in one letter back to somebody who'd said that if Britsh army tanks in the western desert had been as bad as our diesel hydraulics Rommel would have been drinking champagne in Cairo; alas the moaner picked the wrong GM as our one at that time just happened to have been in command of a section of tanks during WWII - in the western desert so knew just how unreliable they had been.

 

I had an absolutely hilarious one on one occasion - for some reason the chap took umbrage at one of our booking clerks, then wasn't happy with what the Chief Booking Clerk had to say, so was passed one to the Asst AM Terminals) who could get no further with him and in desperation asked me to speak to said moaner.  The fellah was duly shown into my office and immediately said 'you look very young to be in a job like this' - moral ascendancy quickly established I duly, and very politely of course,, put him in his place, dismissed his 'complaint' (which was rapidly disintegrating anyway), offered him a cup of tea and finally sent him off thinking BR was wonderful.  If circumstances permit it usually isn't too difficult to take the wind out of the sails of many of the moaners - but alas not all, and you might not always have the time, so you just have to get used to it I'm sorry to say.

[Gwiwer]

I respect all those trying hard against massive odds to provide the daily service to a professional standard.  It's what I do for a living too. Keyboard warriors and the average inconvenienced customer passenger always know better.

 

My view is this - and this is also how I coach my customer service trainees as well.  The customer may be Mistaken, Misguided or Misled but is never Wrong.  If they think they can do better give them a chance.  Offer them the way in be it email, phone number or link to recruitment.  In effect call their bluff.  The typical delayed passenger is venting their frustration.  You happen to be in the wrong place at the right time and are their target.  It's not personal no matter how vitriolic.  Or of it does turn personal then you have recourse for defamation, slander or assault.  Assaults can be verbal. 

 

It is two days since we had the most appalling double-fatality at a level crossing which shut down tow of our busiest lines at the build-up to the evening peak.  They were closed all night.  Even when we explained the problem - and it was so instantly newsworthy that many had already seen news clips or photos on social media - there remained an attitude of "But I have to get home and it's your job to ....... but all you're doing is standing here".  I had my parentage questioned in the most derogatory terms, among other insults, many times.  

 

In an attempt to help everyone to a better future I also spent an hour wading through GTR's 2018 timetable consultation questionnaire.  A weighty document with75 questions at the end not all of which will be relevant to everyone.  But worth a read and worth a response.  
http://www.southernrailway.com/…/42…/timetable-consultation/

[Fenman]

... I also spent an hour wading through GTR's 2018 timetable consultation questionnaire. A weighty document with75 questions at the end not all of which will be relevant to everyone. But worth a read and worth a response.

http://www.southernrailway.com/…/42…/timetable-consultation/

After all the recent attacks on the competence of GTR management, I thought this consultation was rather impressive. It certainly seems more useful than passengers are getting in Crossrail/ GWR-land.

 

Paul