Southern's Timetable Reduction

[Coryton]

I've not noticed this until recently, but Southern don't seem to put timetables up on their stations.

 

Clearly I'm being unobservant so maybe I've missed the same thing elsewhere, but isn't it normal to have appropriate timetables on display in a railway station? This seems pretty standard across the world and presume has been so for over a hundred years.

 

Of course there are displays for the next few trains and many (most?) people have access to the internet now from a smart phone, but it does seem rather odd.

 

 

[Chameleon]

Going by how southern trains have become a complete lottery regarding whether they turn up or not I suppose reading timetables is either an object lesson in futility or an insult, rubbing it in to the poor travelling public?

[John M Upton]

They were removed or covered over when the emergency timetable was introduced.

[Coryton]

They were removed or covered over when the emergency timetable was introduced.

 

Interesting that it's worth putting up posters for modified timetables that run for one weekend during engineering, but not for the Southern "temporary" timetable that has been running for a while now.

 

And I don't think the emergency timetable has made any difference on the Arun Valley anyway yet I didn't see any timetables there.

 

I do wonder how long they can carry on with their announcements about a "temporary shortage of staff" with a straight face.

[cromptonnut]

I do wonder how long they can carry on with their announcements about a "temporary shortage of staff" with a straight face.

 

Whatever happened to the "largest driver recruitment campaign in history" from a couple of years ago?

[Coryton]

Whatever happened to the "largest driver recruitment campaign in history" from a couple of years ago?

 

Well just think how much worse things would have been without it.

[bescotbeast]

I am wheelchair trained, which means I mentally carry out a risk assessment before taking any action.  So I would not use a ramp, I would have to agree a protocol before working with another assistor, and I would not risk anyone (including myself) in any danger.  So if the gap between platform and train is more than two inches, or their is a height difference of more than two inches, then I will not assist.

 

Bill

My thoughts are what happens if a well meaning member of the public drops the disabled passenger or causes injury to the disabled passenger. Staff are trained to use the ramps for good reason, to enable the equipment to be used correctly and safely.

Letting members of the public start using ramps is a recipe for injuries and claims.

[royaloak]

Whatever happened to the "largest driver recruitment campaign in history" from a couple of years ago?

I think their drivers are leaving faster than they can train replacements!

[John M Upton]

Indeed, loads coming up to or indeed have recently retired and only a limited capacity for training new ones which is only just about keeping pace.

[phil-b259]

I think their drivers are leaving faster than they can train replacements!

 

 

Indeed, loads coming up to or indeed have recently retired and only a limited capacity for training new ones which is only just about keeping pace.

 

Quite. If things are going well then its quite possible some staff might decide to stay on - particularly as by law you cannot force anyone to retire these days. however if staff hate coming to work then naturally they are going to be looking to get out as soon as possible - be it retirement or another operator.

 

Yet another thing the DfT seemingly didn't factor in when they decided to start throwing their weight around.

[John M Upton]

All trains from the Coastway East and West to London will be DOO(P) north of Haywards Heath from Monday.  It should be pointed out that the guard remains with these converted services just does not close the doors so there is still someone on board checking tickets (if they can get through that is) and doing announcements, ramps, etc.

[caradoc]

The other sources of funding for the second person on the train is to cut management staff or cut the profit margin for the operating company. Simple.

 

That's nice, calling for some of your fellow railway employees to be sacked. Or do managers not really count as railwaymen or women ?

[phil-b259]

All trains from the Coastway East and West to London will be DOO(P) north of Haywards Heath from Monday.  It should be pointed out that the guard remains with these converted services just does not close the doors so there is still someone on board checking tickets (if they can get through that is) and doing announcements, ramps, etc.

But should a Guard (or are they officially an OBS) not be available at HH due to 'unforeseen circumstances*' the train can continue to London without them.

 

* which presumably could include situations where disruption or staff shortages where Guards can be turned round at HH and head back to the coast with another service rather than continuing to London.

[phil-b259]

That's nice, calling for some of your fellow railway employees to be sacked. Or do managers not really count as railwaymen or women ?

Strangely enough, any organisation without management won't function for very long.

 

The key is to get the best team available to perform that role - which in a railway context is a hard thing to do with lots of stuff to organise that passengers never even consider.

 

BR produced some outstanding managers - and not just the high profile ones like Chris Green - many of whom have gone on to do well in the privatised structure.

 

It's a fact of life that not everyone has the correct skill set - Several of my local managers have been nice people but obviously lack the 'people skills' necessary to succeed. I have also know several others who have got 'the right stuff' and who have consiquently not hung around for long as their undoubted talent has been recognised by those higher up.

 

In many ways the ability to be a good manager is like being a good teacher. Simply having the right skills set on paper is not enough - you need to have excellent people skills and the ability to juggle the demands from your superiors with the hostility and suspicion coming up from the coal face.

 

While he obviously doesn't wish to go into great depth as to his past, it strikes me that 'the stationmaster' of this forum would be a good person to comment on this aspect. On the face of it (based purely on his comments on this site) he seems to have that inbuilt knack of being able to manage* which has no doubt helped in his long railway career.

 

*. i.e. The ability to tell people they are wrong without making it personal, yet not afraid to support people where necessary. The ability to edit out superfluous information and get to the root of the issue, know when it's best to say nothing or handle the issue locally / away from the spotlight, put forward sensible solutions to resolve things.

[Gwiwer]

But should a Guard (or are they officially an OBS) not be available at HH due to 'unforeseen circumstances*' the train can continue to London without them.

 

* which presumably could include situations where disruption or staff shortages where Guards can be turned round at HH and head back to the coast with another service rather than continuing to London.

 

In theory yes.  In reality very unlikely.  Firstly Southern staff seem to be pretty much sticking to the roster book and not offering any flexibility in terms of out-of-course working (would you in their situation?) and secondly if you do send a guard back to Eastbourne or Littlehampton instead of forward to Victoria as an OBS or what ever then they might be at the opposite end of the line to where they should be for a meal break or sign-off and their rate of pay might be different as well due to the differing functions - namely "Ding Ding or No Ding Ding" 

[royaloak]

All trains from the Coastway East and West to London will be DOO(P) north of Haywards Heath from Monday.  It should be pointed out that the guard remains with these converted services just does not close the doors so there is still someone on board checking tickets (if they can get through that is) and doing announcements, ramps, etc.

How will the OBS know there is a wheelchair user to get on the train if the OBS isnt at the door looking out?

[royaloak]

In theory yes.  In reality very unlikely.  Firstly Southern staff seem to be pretty much sticking to the roster book and not offering any flexibility in terms of out-of-course working (would you in their situation?) and secondly if you do send a guard back to Eastbourne or Littlehampton instead of forward to Victoria as an OBS or what ever then they might be at the opposite end of the line to where they should be for a meal break or sign-off and their rate of pay might be different as well due to the differing functions - namely "Ding Ding or No Ding Ding" 

If their contract is anything like ours the Company can do whatever they like with them in between their start and finishing times as long as it complies with the agreements,the only thing they cant change are our start and finishing times!

[royaloak]

Strangely enough, any organisation without management won't function for very long.

 

The key is to get the best team available to perform that role - which in a railway context is a hard thing to do with lots of stuff to organise that passengers never even consider.

 

BR produced some outstanding managers - and not just the high profile ones like Chris Green - many of whom have gone on to do well in the privatised structure.

 

It's a fact of life that not everyone has the correct skill set - Several of my local managers have been nice people but obviously lack the 'people skills' necessary to succeed. I have also know several others who have got 'the right stuff' and who have consiquently not hung around for long as their undoubted talent has been recognised by those higher up.

 

In many ways the ability to be a good manager is like being a good teacher. Simply having the right skills set on paper is not enough - you need to have excellent people skills and the ability to juggle the demands from your superiors with the hostility and suspicion coming up from the coal face.

 

While he obviously doesn't wish to go into great depth as to his past, it strikes me that 'the stationmaster' of this forum would be a good person to comment on this aspect. On the face of it (based purely on his comments on this site) he seems to have that inbuilt knack of being able to manage* which has no doubt helped in his long railway career.

 

*. i.e. The ability to tell people they are wrong without making it personal, yet not afraid to support people where necessary. The ability to edit out superfluous information and get to the root of the issue, know when it's best to say nothing or handle the issue locally / away from the spotlight, put forward sensible solutions to resolve things.

Current railway Managers are not allowed to manage though are they, they have to follow the company line or they will be out the door, oops I mean their contract will not be renewed.

 

Either fall in line or get out the door is the current way!

[Coryton]

How will the OBS know there is a wheelchair user to get on the train if the OBS isnt at the door looking out?

 

Hmmm.

 

The driver could presumably make an announcement for the guard/OBS.

 

But would the driver necessarily see this on their cameras? Or are they too tightly focused on the doors themselves?

[royaloak]

Hmmm.

 

The driver could presumably make an announcement for the guard/OBS.

 

But would the driver necessarily see this on their cameras? Or are they too tightly focused on the doors themselves?

By the time the driver has informed the OBS, the OBS has moved to where the wheelchair user is waiting, found and deployed the ramp etc etc how late will the train be?

[The Stationmaster]

Strangely enough, any organisation without management won't function for very long.

 

The key is to get the best team available to perform that role - which in a railway context is a hard thing to do with lots of stuff to organise that passengers never even consider.

 

BR produced some outstanding managers - and not just the high profile ones like Chris Green - many of whom have gone on to do well in the privatised structure.

 

It's a fact of life that not everyone has the correct skill set - Several of my local managers have been nice people but obviously lack the 'people skills' necessary to succeed. I have also know several others who have got 'the right stuff' and who have consiquently not hung around for long as their undoubted talent has been recognised by those higher up.

 

In many ways the ability to be a good manager is like being a good teacher. Simply having the right skills set on paper is not enough - you need to have excellent people skills and the ability to juggle the demands from your superiors with the hostility and suspicion coming up from the coal face.

 

While he obviously doesn't wish to go into great depth as to his past, it strikes me that 'the stationmaster' of this forum would be a good person to comment on this aspect. On the face of it (based purely on his comments on this site) he seems to have that inbuilt knack of being able to manage* which has no doubt helped in his long railway career.

 

*. i.e. The ability to tell people they are wrong without making it personal, yet not afraid to support people where necessary. The ability to edit out superfluous information and get to the root of the issue, know when it's best to say nothing or handle the issue locally / away from the spotlight, put forward sensible solutions to resolve things.

 

Generally true I think Phil (not necessarily the bit about me ) as different managerial jobs demand different skills.  They don't all involve managing people but can involve managing other things instead or they can involve managing other things and people.  I think the big advantage which BR had was that it was very good at management training and had such things as succession lists which identified suitable people for each senior post and also identified future posts to people as part of their career development (oddly in my final post I wasn't on the succession list and in fact I think only one person who might have applied for it was on the list but didn't get it - thus such lists were for guidance rather than being set in stone).

 

But even a good system could sometimes get things wrong but they tended to be exceptions.  The other big benefit of the BR system of development and training was the breadth it had to work with - thus on the operations side for example you could reasonably go through most of the disciplines before arriving in posts where the knowledge and experience gained was being fully used to the railway's advantage.  The way the industry has changed, let alone being split up, means that sort of route is no longer possible because either the job opportunities have vanished with past methods of working or you can only get the whole spread in by moving between different companies.  

 

Sometimes the specialisation of nowadays can be advantageous but there are examples around of how people have 'carved their name' with short term solutions or apparent successes and left a trail of havoc behind them as their 'skills' were snapped up by someone else - that would not have been very likely to happen in BR times as far as one or two I know of are concerned.  In simple terms it can be very easy to make spectacular economies with various simple wheezes and dodges but usually they'll turn round and bite a few years down the line (as they have in a number of cases) although maybe the short term period of most franchises hasn't helped in that respect.  I think some of Southern's problems betray, as I've already said, a lack of either competence or understanding and that might well be down to senior/middle managers lacking the necessary past experience to wholly comprehend what they are asking their staff to do.

 

Another thing which often isn't appreciated is that a couple of the unions (NUR/RMT and ASLEF, and possibly also some of the engineering unions?) used to run top rate management assessment information.  Thus if you moved from managing ground staff or footplatemen at one location to somewhere else the local union branch officials could be quite well briefed about your strengths and weaknesses as they had been perceived at the place your were coming from.  I don't know if that still goes on but it could be amusing to find out snippets of what had been said about you.  With clerical staff etc that was hardly necessary as most people in the railway family would have found out more than enough about you before you arrived and would know your technical capabilities in respect of the work they were doing because many people knew others in similar disciplines elsewhere, especially within the same Region.  And of course appointing officers looking at folk being interviewed for promotion would almost inevitably have sought the opinion of their existing manager (which might or might not be beneficial   )

 

And how do you manage people - well I think consistency in dealing with people is important - not necessarily being 'nice' but always being fair and, hopefully honest (although sometimes that was not possible when things had to be done very discreetly or occasionally, literally, in secret) and the other key was understanding and supporting. The worst group to manage? - without a shadow of doubt female carriage cleaners, compared with them trade union firebrands were a rest camp.

[phil-b259]

By the time the driver has informed the OBS, the OBS has moved to where the wheelchair user is waiting, found and deployed the ramp etc etc how late will the train be?

 

No later than is currently the case. True a guard looking along the platform might spot someone requiring assistance and thus instigate the process sooner, but the act of going and getting the ramp, helping the traveller on board then stowing the ramp will take the same amount of time.

 

If you really want to make the process efficient you have a staff member on the station who is able to be ready an waiting with the ramp (and dito at the place where the traveller gets off, having been alerted by the boarding station) thus minimising the time taken.

 

Not for the first time I find myself thinking that a lot of the issues being raised about DOO could actually be resolved by staffing stations, not the trains....

[cromptonnut]

Interesting.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37600476

 

Staff striking in a long-running dispute with Southern over the role of conductors have been advised to accept new contracts by union bosses.  The Rail Maritime and Transport Union (RMT) said there was "no climb down" but it was their duty to protect staff against mass sackings.

[lmsforever]

Maybe the members are turning against Mr Cash and deciding its better to have a job than keep striking ,I see they used the safety message again we are all getting tired of unions disrupting lives just for political ends.

[cromptonnut]

Maybe the members are turning against Mr Cash and deciding its better to have a job than keep striking ,I see they used the safety message again we are all getting tired of unions disrupting lives just for political ends.

 

... not forgetting, of course, that the whole dispute is based around the union-busting desire of the current government, which is solely towards their political ends too.