More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

On 06/02/2021 at 15:52, Guy Rixon said:

How many would you like? 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Asterix2012]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been experimenting with mineral loads:

 

 

I haven't got any coal. How can one get one's hands on a lump of coal in this time of climate crisis and pandemic lockdown? Anyway, a lump of coal would have to be processed - crushed and graded. There are some instances where ungraded coal - a mix of sizes of lumps - could be found; I believe locomotive coal could be an example - but examination of marshalling yard photos shows that most loads were of coal of a particular size:

 

 

A congress of D299s at Cricklewood Sidings, March 1905 [NRM DY 2806, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum].

 

So, what's mineral and graded, in our modelling world? Ballast. 

 

I've stuck Woodland Scenics coarse ballast onto a cardboard table, using the usual dilute PVA method, and then painted it black with acrylic. I've stuck lead weights under the table, using UHU. (There is no point of contact between the PVA and the lead, I think / hope / believe. Anyway, it's only a removeable load.) There's a hole in the wagon floor into which a pokey stick can be inserted to demount the load:

 

 

I think the lump size is a reasonable match for the loads in the wagons in the foreground of the Cricklewood photo; medium or even fine could be used too, judging by the wagons further from the camera. However, I'm stumped for the big lumps in the wagons on the left, around 3 mm - 4 mm size. I keep looking at the cat litter - too absorbent? Any better ideas?

 

Painting the ballast black is a step I could do without so I've ordered a bag of Woodland Scenics coarse ash ballast. I'm wondering though if a dry brushing of gloss varnish might be the thing to give the impression of hard shiny coals?

 

This is a coke wagon. What size was the coke produced at gasworks, or at colliery coking plants? And what colour? I've an idea it might be greyer.

Would charcoal be an option, easier to break up than coal and similar appearance?

[richbrummitt]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

we’re going to need a bigger printer

[Mikkel]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So in 4 mm scale, around 11.0 mm x 9.0 mm

 

This morning people were saving lives all over the world. Me, I got out the calipers to measure 4mm scale casks. It looks like the Exclusive First Editions cask (which has also been marketed by Bachmann if I udnerstand correctly) is the closest fit to a Burton cask.

 

 

The EFE ones happen to be the ones I was going to use for my own load of beer barrels - however, I have no doubt that Guy's will be much better so am looking forward to those.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Mikkel
Casks, not barrels, when will I learn!

[PenrithBeacon]

On 05/02/2021 at 23:06, Compound2632 said:

I've been experimenting with mineral loads:

 

I haven't got any coal.

IIRC that is the Midland coke wagon. Might I suggest that if it were loaded to that extent with coal the wagon would be too heavy?

When I made my sole example of this kit I used coarse horticutural sand to simulate coke

Regards 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

IIRC that is the Midland coke wagon. Might I suggest that if it were loaded to that extent with coal the wagon would be too heavy?

When I made my sole example of this kit I used coarse horticutural sand to simulate coke

 

Correctly identified - D342 No. 85467. If you read to the end of the post, you'll see that I said "This is a coke wagon. What size was the coke produced at gasworks, or at colliery coking plants? And what colour? I've an idea it might be greyer." - implying that my intention with this wagon is indeed to model a coke load.

[billbedford]

Coke looked nothing like coal. while coal tended to be block shaped, coke was more rounded and 'lumpy'. I have thought that the way to produce model coke was to crush some builder's foam filler (squinty foam) and then paint it dark grey with metallic silver dry-brush highlights. 

I believe it was graded for size, while it really din't matter what size lumps went into a blast furnace, domestic customers tended not to appreciate lamps bigger than their hearths.  

 

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Correctly identified - D342 No. 85467. If you read to the end of the post, you'll see that I said "This is a coke wagon. What size was the coke produced at gasworks, or at colliery coking plants? And what colour? I've an idea it might be greyer." - implying that my intention with this wagon is indeed to model a coke load.

Lumps of coke varied between 1" & 3" so below 1mm in 1:76. Best to ignore the actual sizes which is why I used sand.

It varied in colour also, but always a very, very dark grey.  I doubt if you can model the variations in colour or get the colour exactly right.  I went for a matt black,  coke didn't shine as coal does. 

[MikeOxon]

We occasionally had coke for domestic use when I was young.  The pieces were quite small - around 10 cm across, I would think,  and had a metallic grey appearance.  I feel Bill Bedford's suggestion of silver brush highlights is appropriate.  It was quite clean to the touch, unlike powdery coal.  We used to add some to a late evening coal fire, to produce a good hot glow with small blue flames.  I do remember that we would be concerned about carbon monoxide, which was apparently why Joseph Armstrong did not like the idea of enclosed cabs.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have found this on the net, for barrel dimensions.

 

http://www.beerbarrels.co.uk/large_barrels/index.html

 

 

[Rowsley17D]

Photos of St Pancras cellar.

 

https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer

 

also on Twitter

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

This is quite a minefield as it isn't clear to me what sizes were used for transporting beer by rail. As a gallon of beer weighs in at about 10lbs, a 40 gallon Barrel measuring 35" high, 24" diameter would weigh in at more then 400 lbs. 

 

Wikipedia quote a different (smaller) capacity of 36 gallons so a little lighter to man handle.  The kilderkin  (about 24" by 20") held 18 gallons, so more manageable.   For comparison, milk churns held 17 gallons so weighed in at around 160/170 lbs.

 

Can we best guess from the photos of Bass and Co or St Pancras, what size the barrels are?

[PenrithBeacon]

The barrel above seems to be knee height in diameter.

There are lots of references to the volume of beer barrels (36 gallons) on the net but I can't find any dimensions in feet and inches .

Must have been pretty back-aching work judging by the photo above. There must have been some mechanical aids to lift the stuff.

[Rail-Online]

Regarding the size and colour of coke, I recall the stuff used in the steel industry was a significantly larger size compared to the stuff sold for household use (which came in silly little bags - to our house at least).  OK it was 50 years ago but coke hoppers at Rotherwood Sidings had lumps about 5" across.  I searched my negs and they confirm this, only one in colour though......

 

Tony

Edited February 7, 2021 by Rail-Online

[Rail-Online]

Found another coke train. The 06.30 Toton to Garston - I wonder where it was exported to - Ireland?

 

Tony

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The barrel above seems to be knee height in diameter.

There are lots of references to the volume of beer barrels (36 gallons) on the net but I can't find any dimensions in feet and inches .

Must have been pretty back-aching work judging by the photo above. There must have been some mechanical aids to lift the stuff.

Stephen,  

 

http://www.beerbarrels.co.uk/small_barrels/index.html

 

a supplier of decorative barrels but gives some dimensions.

 

A kilderkin, approx. height: 24" (60cm), diameter at middle: 20" (50cm) and diameter at ends: 18" (45cm) hold eighteen  gallons so would weigh in around 180 plus pounds.

 

A "barrel" hold 36 gallons and measure about 35"  high, diameter at middle 24". (Dimensions also from the same link website). 

 

Jol

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

This is quite a minefield as it isn't clear to me what sizes were used for transporting beer by rail. As a gallon of beer weighs in at about 10lbs, a 40 gallon Barrel measuring 35" high, 24" diameter would weigh in at more then 400 lbs. 

 

Wikipedia quote a different (smaller) capacity of 36 gallons so a little lighter to man handle.  The kilderkin  (about 24" by 20") held 18 gallons, so more manageable.   For comparison, milk churns held 17 gallons so weighed in at around 160/170 lbs.

 

Can we best guess from the photos of Bass and Co or St Pancras, what size the barrels are?

 

The Hogshead / Firkin etc height and width dimensions seem to differ quite a bit, depending on the source. I assume that's because the key is the volume, rather than the dimensions ?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The Hogshead / Firkin etc height and width dimensions seem to differ quite a bit, depending on the source. I assume that's because the key is the volume, rather than the dimensions ?

 

The volume is the determining factor. For the present discussion, I think it's clear that the key size is the barrel: 36 gallons = 5.78 cubic feet. The other sizes are related to this by fixed ratios, the barrel itself being 1/8 of a tun. So we have, for ale or beer:

• 1 tun = 8 barrels = 288 gallons = 46.24 cubic feet
• 1 pipe or butt = 1/2 ton = 4 barrels=  144 gallons = 23.12 cubic feet
• 1 tierce or puncheon = 1/3 tun = 8/3 barrels = 96 gallons = 15.41 cubic feet
• 1 hogshead = 1/4 tun = 2 barrels = 72 gallons = 11.56 cubic feet
• 1 tierce = 1/6 tun = 4/3 barrel=  48 gallons = 7.71 cubic feet
• 1 kilderkin = 1/2 barrel = 18 gallons = 2.89 cubic feet
• 1 firkin = 1/4 barrel = 9 gallons = 1.44 cubic feet

where we can note the advantage that imperial units have when it comes to dividing a quantity by three.

 

Barrels or casks used in different trades, including different parts of the alcoholic beverages industry, may be differently defined and/or have different proportions (aspect ratio) to the Burton beer barrel. This has one obvious advantage: casks of different commodities could not be inadvertently mixed up.

 

At least, that's my understanding so far.

 

Thanks to those who have contributed to the parallel coke discussion. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Further to this, in terms of linear dimensions, assuming the casks have similar proportions, taking the linear dimension of a barrel as 1, we have:

• tun = 2.0 x barrel
• pipe or butt = 1.6 x barrel
• tierce or puncheon = 1.4 x barrel
• hogshead = 1.26 x barrel
• tierce = 1.10 x barrel
• kilderkin = 0.80 x barrel
• firkin = 0.63 x barrel

... remembering that this applies to the internal dimensions; factors such as stave thickness and depth of chine will scale differently.

[Mikkel]

"Oh very clever he is. Or thinks he is. Come over here and I'll tell you a thing or two about casks!"

 

https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/postcard-circa-1900-victorian-edwardian-social-history-news-photo/1207773454?adppopup=true

 

Looks like my casks from Frenchman River Works could work for herring. 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

"Oh very clever he is. Or thinks he is. Come over here and I'll tell you a thing or two about casks!"

 

https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/postcard-circa-1900-victorian-edwardian-social-history-news-photo/1207773454?adppopup=true

 

Looks like my casks from Frenchman River Works could work for herring. 

 

 

Is that floral print really c. 1900?

[Rail-Online]

56 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that floral print really c. 1900?

Well spotted - very interesting.  I guess this could have been anytime up to the 1930s, I would guess mid 1920s(?).  Looks like the sensible ladies wore waterproof aprons, it must have been a vile job.   I bet they were 'hard'  - you would not want to argue with them!

 

Tony

[Mikkel]

I did wonder about the dating myself. It's part of a series:

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/north-shields-fish-quay?family=editorial&phrase=north shields fish quay&sort=oldest

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I did wonder about the dating myself. It's part of a series:

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/north-shields-fish-quay?family=editorial&phrase=north shields fish quay&sort=oldest

 

Looking again, short hairstyles suggest 1920s? There's another similar group described as c. 1930. 

 

I can believe the ones labelled as 1880s (lantern slide).

 

However the hairstyles and clothing may change, it looks as though the barrels stay the same.

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 There's another similar group described as c. 1930. 

And the car would definatly bring it into the early 30's.