More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Interesting - Cambrian claim the kit is (Southern) D1410. The Geen whitemetal kit also claims to be D1410 but with wooden frames, it also has wider planks - 8 to the side rather than 11 on the Cambrian van. Judging from the photos on Mikkel's blog, the X-frames are possibly closer to right angles to each other so it may be a little lower. Oh well, I'll transfer the Cambrian van to my 1922 shelf and look out for the Geen kit before he disappears!

 

I'm coming a little late to this, but regarding the Cambrian D1410/D1406 issue, see these posts by autocoach:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117690-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-or-140x-goods-vans/?p=2540059

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116368-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-van-kit-now-in-production/?p=2564874

[Miss Prism]

Thanks, Mikkel. From my reading of Barry Parks' response, I think it means the Cambrian kit as supplied is not incorrect. Which will keep me happy.

 

It's refreshing sometimes to be blissfully ignorant about wagons from other companies!

 

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

Thanks, Mikkel. From my reading of Barry Parks' response, I think it means the Cambrian kit as supplied is not incorrect. Which will keep me happy.

 

It's refreshing sometimes to be blissfully ignorant about wagons from other companies!

 

Yes, although it may be worth noting that if I understand the reply from Barry Park correctly, the Cambrian model (and his revised drawing) is based on a 1935 photo, at which point a 1900s van may of course have been altered in various ways. It would be interesting to see that photo, also to see whether that particularly prototype really had the door rails underneath the roof. As mentioned earlier, all the photos of D1410s in "An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1" have the running rail in front of the roof.

[Compound2632]

Many thanks for the replies re. the D16 brake van - comments below. Glazing (and the roof) will follow the matt varnish that comes after the transfers; I'm just about to spray the gloss varnish that provides the foundation for the transfers. One further question, if I may: as far as I can make out, unlike LNWR wagons that have the "register" number on the top plank at each end, the only means of identification for brake vans is the number plate? (I've read up on numbering so know these are in a separate sequence so I need a number below about 15xx - I'm going to ignore the very small B suffix!) The opposite of Midland practice - ordinary wagons didn't get painted numbers until very late on (c. 1917) but goods brake vans had them prominently displayed from a very early date. The HMRS LNWR transfer sheet includes "WALSALL" in its brake van allocations, which suits me very well. But haw many brake van "stations" where there? Obviously the sheet can't include every location but the next nearest are Rugby, Shrewsbury, and Crewe. Would there have been vans allocated to, say, Wolverhampton and Birmingham - in the latter case, any distinction between Curzon Street and Windsor Goods? We await Vol. 3 of LNWR Wagons...

 

Only the small windows at the plain end and inner end of the veranda were glazed.

The red tail lamps were positioned behind the holes in the van ends.

 

Jol, thanks - and that tallies with the bottom photo in this post. Most photos are side-on, which makes it difficult to judge - and possibly there was a change of practice?

 

Compound2632, I do not know anything about L.S.W.R wagons but I have a little knowledge about Dia 16 brake vans. I believe that the windows were glazed at both ends. The hole in the centre of both ends was for a tail lamp that could be accessed from the inside. They were later changed to to outside lamps after complaints about fumes from the guards. I have being trying for a long time to find good information about these brake vans. I have 3 drawings, one works drawing, and two modellers drawings. All are different and none show both end elevation which are different because the window height are different. Only time will tell when Vol 3 of the L.N.W.R wagon book appears.

 

airnimal, do you mean the windows to the enclosed section of the van? Jol's clear that the external verandah windows were unglazed. The LRM (ex-D&S) kit has identical ends...

 

When I started out on my current bout of LNWR wagon building, I was confidently expecting to have LNWR Wagons Vol. 3 by last Easter...

 

The lamps may also have been moved "outside" so that they could be seen from the loco (the small white light to the reverse of the red lens)  to indicate that the train was still intact, but I can't recall where I read that.

 

A little research (not too difficult for anyone to do) on the LNWR Society website shows an undated photo of a D16 with what appears to be a lamp bracket on the outside end pillar of the veranda.

 

An official photo of a D17 six wheel brake van, dated 1909. shows a lamp fitted in that position.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/brakes/Diag017.php

 

So pre 1909 would be to be definite, but I don't know more than that.

 

I'd noticed the lamp irons in that D16 photo. They don't seem to be fitted to the two-tone van.

 

The tail lamp in the centre was mounted on a shelf inside the van so that it can be tended from the inside, with the light shining through a hole in the end wall. 

Later a hinged flap was provided at the end, giving access to lamp brackets which held the lamp outside. The side lamps are on hinged brackets so that they could be rotated out of sight when not in use or for attention. In addition to the bracket being hinged, the lamp itself can rotate on the bracket in order to present different colours for different purposes. Normally three red lamps were shown at the rear of goods trains, but where there were extra tracks, the following lights had to be shown to indicate to following trains which line the train was travelling on:

Four track sections, 3 red lights on the fast line, but when on the slow line a while light on the side nearest to the fast line.

Loop lines adjacent to double track lines, a while light on the side nearest the main line.

Loop lines off four track lines, both side lamps to be removed.

Where brake vans were left in goods yards, guards were required to turn the sidelights inside before leaving the van. 

 

Source: Richard Foster "Forty Years of the London and North Western Railway Society"

 

 

The lamps on the D17 photo Jol mentions seem to be on that hinged bracket - at least it's not lined up with the end pillar. There's an even better view in the next page - D17A, with the lamp hinged inboard. This van also has a lamp on a conventional bracket on one end pillar, together with a sort of double-bracket arrangement presumably where the hole used to be. EDIT: this is a van in early LMS condition.

 

But other than pre-1909, the date of a change-over still seems elusive...

Edited October 8, 2017 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I'm coming a little late to this, but regarding the Cambrian D1410/D1406 issue, see these posts by autocoach:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117690-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-or-140x-goods-vans/?p=2540059

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116368-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-van-kit-now-in-production/?p=2564874

 

Mikkel, many thanks those links - if I'd read them before starting to assemble the kit, it would have been in danger of not being such a quick job! I learn that the Panter brake is not the same as the lift brake, the latter being what the kit supplies (or at least the option I built it with). You did wisely to go for simple lever, one-sided brakes in your Geen build! (Incidentally, the push rods must be arranged the way you did them, right over left - the other way round and lowering the lever would take the brakes off.)

 

Thanks, Mikkel. From my reading of Barry Parks' response, I think it means the Cambrian kit as supplied is not incorrect. Which will keep me happy.

 

It's refreshing sometimes to be blissfully ignorant about wagons from other companies!

 

I'm getting dangerously close to turning my attention to my collection of second-hand early Great Western wagons - with which such a cavalier attitude would, I'm sure, prove deeply unwise...

 

Most of them will be red, of course...

[Compound2632]

Whilst we're working round the ordinal points of the compass, I've been looking at the available kits for GSWR wagons that will pass for c. 1903, working south via the Settle & Carlisle. 51L's 10 ton open wagon (Diagram 15) seems to be the sole candidate. When did the GSWR adopt large lettering and, if later than c. 1895, what went before?

 

No NER or SER questions for now! Though I'm still hankering after one of those round-ended SER wagons and the antique looking covered goods wagons too - both as seen here.

 

Neither can I find any justification for goods stock from the other GSWR or the DSER.

 

Ordinal points of the compass - I realise I omitted the MSWJR, noting Mikkel's bash of a Slater's D305 3-plank dropside wagon.

 

Also, one the GSWRs isn't really ordinal but a combination of two cardinal points - unique I think, unless you want to count E. Nesbitt's GNSR - not to be confused with the GNSR where the S stands for Scotland! That got me counting up railways named after cardinal points: Great Northern (twice), Great Southern and Southern (both post-grouping), Great Eastern, Great Western and Midland Great Western...

 

Nord, Ouest, Est...

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

The tail lamp in the centre was mounted on a shelf inside the van so that it can be tended from the inside, with the light shining through a hole in the end wall. 

Later a hinged flap was provided at the end, giving access to lamp brackets which held the lamp outside. The side lamps are on hinged brackets so that they could be rotated out of sight when not in use or for attention. In addition to the bracket being hinged, the lamp itself can rotate on the bracket in order to present different colours for different purposes. Normally three red lamps were shown at the rear of goods trains, but where there were extra tracks, the following lights had to be shown to indicate to following trains which line the train was travelling on:

Four track sections, 3 red lights on the fast line, but when on the slow line a while light on the side nearest to the fast line.

Loop lines adjacent to double track lines, a while light on the side nearest the main line.

Loop lines off four track lines, both side lamps to be removed.

Where brake vans were left in goods yards, guards were required to turn the sidelights inside before leaving the van. 

 

Source: Richard Foster "Forty Years of the London and North Western Railway Society"

 

 

Thanks for the reminder of Richard's book (published by the LNWR Society). Perhaps I should have read it more carefully, as I was one of the contributors. Its publication created some discord within the Society Committee, several of whom had difficulty in recognizing that the modelling community were a major consumer of its books and did a lot to "promote" the LNWR.

 

For anyone interested in the LNWR or the early LMS, the LNWRS has a super archive.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Penlan]

....... Its publication created some discord within the Society Committee,

several of whom had difficulty in recognising that the modelling community

were a major consumer of its books and did a lot to "promote" the LNWR.

Fully agree with Jol, and it's the modellers who ask(ed) the questions on details for modelling that created the need for a more inclusive look at the LNWR, other than say side views of loco's and coaches.

The terrific book on the Coal Tanks by the Bahamas Loco Soc., was short of one important photo - for modellers - a view of the top of the side tanks.

I asked a question on the Society's Forum via a third party (Society Member)  re. some coach roof fittings, nobody could answer the question (though it may have been answered very recently) yet as a modeller, these where an obvious roof detail.

 

Re. the tail lamps on Goods Brake Vans in Brassey's post above, I think these are the post 1903 instructions.

The 1883 General Appendix also mentions a Green tail light for certain applications - There were also certain trains that had a Green loco lamp (front) as well - and of course there were 'Tail Boards' for when Special Trains were run*.

 

* Jol, full details were published circa 1980 when I was the Editor of the Society's Premier Lines / Premier News - Richard Fosters '40 years...  etc.,' only mentions I was Hon. Sec., on page 61, not also the Society's Editor at one and the same time. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Penlan

[airnimal]

Compound2632, I was unaware the veranda windows were unglazed and I am happy to bow to Jol's superior knowledge. I am also waiting for Vol 3 of the wagon book. I may have had a slight helping hand with this. At the Telford show in 2016 I asked Simon Casten when this was going to be produced and was told that it was not on the radar anytime soon.

I then approached John Stockton Wood from the L.N.W.R. Society to ask could they not put some sort of financial assistance to produce this finial volume. The reasons that I asked being that the vast majority of members were in their latter stage of there life's and if it's not published soon these members would not be around to see it. I then believe that John talked to other people in the society and they talked Simon into bringing this Vol 3 forward.

Does anyone know if there were any of these brake vans made with open veranda's ?

There is a well known photo of the Preston accident in 1896 with a brake van in the background with a open veranda like the ones on the N.L.R. Did the L.N.W.R. Have any like this ?

 

A couple of photos of my unfinished vans and a N.L.R. van I made for a friend.

[Guy Rixon]

Thanks, Mikkel. From my reading of Barry Parks' response, I think it means the Cambrian kit as supplied is not incorrect. Which will keep me happy.

 

It's refreshing sometimes to be blissfully ignorant about wagons from other companies!

 

 

Not unprototypical, just mislabelled as the wrong diagram. Also, not a suitable starting point for the perishables vans that evolved from D1410 (drat!).

[Jol Wilkinson]

Compound2632, I was unaware the veranda windows were unglazed and I am happy to bow to Jol's superior knowledge. I am also waiting for Vol 3 of the wagon book. I may have had a slight helping hand with this. At the Telford show in 2016 I asked Simon Casten when this was going to be produced and was told that it was not on the radar anytime soon.

I then approached John Stockton Wood from the L.N.W.R. Society to ask could they not put some sort of financial assistance to produce this finial volume. The reasons that I asked being that the vast majority of members were in their latter stage of there life's and if it's not published soon these members would not be around to see it. I then believe that John talked to other people in the society and they talked Simon into bringing this Vol 3 forward.

Does anyone know if there were any of these brake vans made with open veranda's ?

There is a well known photo of the Preston accident in 1896 with a brake van in the background with a open veranda like the ones on the N.L.R. Did the L.N.W.R. Have any like this ?

 

A couple of photos of my unfinished vans and a N.L.R. van I made for a friend.

Ooops, I think I may have got that wrong as I was thinking of the side openings and the large end opening in the NLR van (old age is my excuse).

 

A further look at the LNWRS website photos shows that glazing can be seen in the small end windows of some vans where the angle of the photos is oblique, including the  D18 and especially the Crystal Palace D17B van. That means I'll now have to fit glazing to mine.

 

The LNWR also had "Ballast Brake Vans" based on the D16 I believe but I can't find any details at the moment. Could that have been the open veranda brake van in the Preston photo?

 

Nice models, I particularly like the NLR one.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Londontram]

Compound2632, I was unaware the veranda windows were unglazed and I am happy to bow to Jol's superior knowledge. I am also waiting for Vol 3 of the wagon book. I may have had a slight helping hand with this. At the Telford show in 2016 I asked Simon Casten when this was going to be produced and was told that it was not on the radar anytime soon.

I then approached John Stockton Wood from the L.N.W.R. Society to ask could they not put some sort of financial assistance to produce this finial volume. The reasons that I asked being that the vast majority of members were in their latter stage of there life's and if it's not published soon these members would not be around to see it. I then believe that John talked to other people in the society and they talked Simon into bringing this Vol 3 forward.

Does anyone know if there were any of these brake vans made with open veranda's ?

There is a well known photo of the Preston accident in 1896 with a brake van in the background with a open veranda like the ones on the N.L.R. Did the L.N.W.R. Have any like this ?

 

A couple of photos of my unfinished vans and a N.L.R. van I made for a friend.

Wow what a vision of beauty that is and stand a lot closer scrutiny than any of my wagons would.

[Compound2632]

The reasons that I asked being that the vast majority of members were in their latter stage of there life's and if it's not published soon these members would not be around to see it.

 

I understand the LMS Locomotive Profiles series got into a similar situation - I believe there were another three or so volumes on which a considerable amount of work had been done but the authors were unable to bring them to conclusion. There's a well-known saying: publish and be damned.

 

Ooops, I think I may have got that wrong as I was thinking of the side openings and the large end opening in the NLR van (old age is my excuse).

 

A further look at the LNWRS website photos shows that glazing can be seen in the small end windows of some vans where the angle of the photos is oblique, including the  D18 and especially the Crystal Palace D17B van. That means I'll now have to fit glazing to mine.

 

The LNWR also had "Ballast Brake Vans" based on the D16 I believe but I can't find any details at the moment. Could that have been the open veranda brake van in the Preston photo?

 

Nice models, I particularly like the NLR one.

 

Sorry, yes it is the verandah end windows I was asking about. I think I'll glaze them - if it subsequently turns out that they shouldn't be, it should be possible to knock the glazing out. The inside of the verandah is a bit sparse too - it hasn't got a floor!

 

Wow what a vision of beauty that is and stand a lot closer scrutiny than any of my wagons would.

 

Yes, he makes 7 mm scale look like Gauge 3. What hope do we have at 4 mm scale!

[Penlan]

Sorry, yes it is the verandah end windows I was asking about. I think I'll glaze them - if it subsequently turns out that they shouldn't be, it should be possible to knock the glazing out. The inside of the verandah is a bit sparse too - it hasn't got a floor!

Yes, the small windows in the Verandah end are glazed, I had some lengthy correspondence with Peter Ellis on this, I taking the view, most unglazed, but Peter came back that they were glazed, as evidenced by some of the reflections seen in a few photo's.  Peter's the wagon man, so I stood corrected.  Note also Jim Richards 7mm Brake Vans are glazed too, and he was a devil for detail.

 

Re. the open Verandah ends as per the Preston Accident photo.  Yes, plenty of these, though whether they were specific for the Maintenance Dept., etc., (non-revenue) or where earlier Brake Vans cascaded down, I'm not sure. 

The ends were thought at one time to be painted red, but these photo's show a very light colour on the ends.

My models are red, I copied another well known LNWR modeller's ballast brake van, when I did my first one back in 1969, doh....

 

I, like many, am awaiting Vol 3.  I have funds in my Amazon Account waiting for it to be published.

 

Note in the first and second photo's re., the different side lamp fixings.  

 

This is a Ballast Brake Van (Roger Carpenter Collection)

 

 

Another one  (Roger Carpenter Collection)

 

 

The Preston Brake Van

 

 

Penmaenmawr Brake Van (J.M.Dunn)

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

(Forty Years of the London North Western Railway Society). Its publication created some discord within the Society Committee, several of whom had difficulty in recognizing that the modelling community were a major consumer of its books and did a lot to "promote" the LNWR.

I should imagine there is absolute horror in some parts of the Society, having a Facebook page too ..... 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Penlan

[Western Star]

Is that a rainstrip / gutter over the veranda side of the ballast brakes?

[Compound2632]

Yes, the small windows in the Verandah end are glazed, I had some lengthy correspondence with Peter Ellis on this, I taking the view, most unglazed, but Peter came back that they were glazed, as evidenced by some of the reflections seen in a few photo's.  Peter's the wagon man, so I stood corrected.  Note also Jim Richards 7mm Brake Vans are glazed too, and he was a devil for detail.

 

Re. the open Verandah ends as per the Preston Accident photo.  Yes, plenty of these, though whether they were specific for the Maintenance Dept., etc., (non-revenue) or where earlier Brake Vans cascaded down, I'm not sure. 

The ends were thought at one time to be painted red, but these photo's show a very light colour on the ends.

My models are red, I copied another well known LNWR modeller's ballast brake van, when I did my first one back in 1969, doh....

 

I, like many, am awaiting Vol 3.  I have funds in my Amazon Account waiting for it to be published.

 

Note in the first and second photo's re., the different side lamp fixings.  

 

This is a Ballast Brake Van (Roger Carpenter Collection)

 

Brake Van - Ballast.jpg

 

Another one  (Roger Carpenter Collection)

 

Brake Van #11A.jpg

 

The Preston Brake Van

 

Preston Ballast Break Van.jpg

 

Penmaenmawr Brake Van (J.M.Dunn)

 

Penmaenmawr Brake Van.jpg

 

I spy the large cast numberplate on the ballast brakes, fitted where the station name is painted on the goods brakes. It's visible on the brake in the Preston photo; at Penmaenmawr someone has inconsiderately stood in the way. Presumably ballast brakes are seen in the accident photos as they're part of the mopping-up/reinstatement equipment.

[Penlan]

Is that a rainstrip / gutter over the veranda side of the ballast brakes?

Yes...

[Penlan]

The lettering wasn't always in the central panel  (Roger Carpenter Collection).

 

A cruel enlargement of a fragment in a photo.

 

[Compound2632]

While the varnish is drying on the D16 brake van, an interlude or excursus on Methfix transfers – I’ve been using some more of the old Slaters Midland ones from the same batch as in my opening post, on a lot of Midland wagons (to appear soon). Back in February, I posted a photo of a Slaters Chas Roberts tank wagon, assembled but unpainted. The kit came with Methfix transfers. After painting – Halfords red primer for the body colour and Humbrol 33 black for the solebar ironwork and running gear – I sprayed Humbrol gloss varnish on the areas where the transfers were to go. I had rather mixed success with the transfers. On the brake side, the main lettering came out quite well – the ‘L’ of ‘Lincolnshire’ and one of the hyphens are slightly skew – but the solebar detail mostly disintegrated. On the non-brake side, ‘Lincolnshire’ went totally to pot but the solebar detail was a bit more successful:

 

 

Fortunately, I was able to get another set of transfers on ebay and am about to have a second go at the worst bits. I find that the Methfix transfers are like Longfellow’s Jemima: when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid. They take to the surface texture better than Pressfix or waterslide transfers. However, the smaller lettering has a dreadful tendency to float away in all directions the moment it sees the meths. Any suggestions?

 

I’m afraid this wagon is that naughty thing, a model of a model, the livery following a 7 mm scale model painted by Buckjumper; I’ve not seen a photo of the prototype. It was really an exercise in seeing if I was happy with the Halfords red primer as a ‘warm red’ for Great Western wagons – which I think I am. My previous attempt used Humbrol 100 red brown which seemed too orangey; Humbrol 70 brick red was too brown; this seems to me to be ‘just right’ on aesthetic and theoretical grounds. (Don’t judge too much from the photos, taken with artificial lighting.) The theory has been discussed extensively elsewhere but boils down to: red lead (Lead (II,IV) oxide, also known as minium) was widely used in the nineteenth century as a cheap, waterproof paint, particularly for metal; although often used as a primer for more expensive finishing paints, it seems to have been widely used by the wagon building companies for ‘red’ wagons; and finally, the Halfords red primer, although of course not lead-based, appears to be matched to this, as a ‘traditional’ primer colour.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[airnimal]

I am so glad I replied to this tread because today I have learnt so much more about these Dia16 brake vans. I have been a member of the L.N.W.R. society for 19 years and in all that time I haven't seen any models of ballast brake vans or any drawings or anything to do with them.

[Western Star]

 I’m afraid this wagon is that naughty thing, a model of a model, the livery following a 7 mm scale model painted by Buckjumper; I’ve not seen a photo of the prototype.

That wagon just refuses to lie down and be forgotten!  We built the 7mm kit and Adrian painted our work.  What you have written about the transfers floating off into oblivion is what happened to some of ours, especially the solebar lettering (indeed, so much to the point that Adrian arranged for etch plates and those are what can be seen in the photos).

 

There is a tale to tell about the Y&L transfers.  The company had two rectangular tank wagons ("Oil on the Rails" {appendix}, Coppin, HMRS) and those wagons were numbered 2 and 9.  Wagon no.2 had a tank of length 15'0"...  whilst wagon no.9 had a tank of length 15'6".  There is a photo of no.9 ("Wagons of the Ince Waggon Company", Watts, HMRS) and that is the photo which Slaters has apparently used for the transfers which are included in the kit.  As wagon no.2 is 6" shorter in the length of the tank then the wagon was written with the lettering at different spacing to no.9...  which is why Adrian had to cut and shut the transfers to fit the model.  To date I have not seen any other photo of the Y&L wagons.

[wagonbasher]

I sprayed Humbrol gloss varnish on the areas where the transfers were to go. I had rather mixed success with the transfers. On the brake side, the main lettering came out quite well – the ‘L’ of ‘Lincolnshire’ and one of the hyphens are slightly skew – but the solebar detail mostly disintegrated. On the non-brake side, ‘Lincolnshire’ went totally to pot but the solebar detail was a bit more successful:[/font][/size]

 

 

Fortunately, I was able to get another set of transfers on ebay and am about to have a second go at the worst bits.

 

I'm pleased you have found some more transfers, I thought a heavy tar spill was on the way.

 

Andy

[Penlan]

The original 4mm D16 Brake Van kit by D&S Models was for the standard version,

LRM have upgraded the kit and include parts for the open veranda version too.

[Compound2632]

The original 4mm D16 Brake Van kit by D&S Models was for the standard version,

LRM have upgraded the kit and include parts for the open veranda version too.

 

Also, I think the nickel silver etch with the parts for the diagonal clasp brakes of the otherwise similar NLR version is a LRM upgrade. Of these parts, more anon...