More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Lecorbusier]

I also have these images of the station siding which shows the kind of traffic. My conclusion here is that we are looking at coal deliveries. reasoning for this is twofold. Firstly the loads are pretty level which suggests they are coming in rather than loading out. Secondly, looking at the wagons (6 plank) edited following compounds analysis below, even at 12T loadings, they would be severely overloaded were they either limestone or spar .... so i am of the opinion that they are coal. Given that final wagon is detached from the other three ... I am hazarding a guess that 1 wagon is delivered for local consumption, and the others relate to the mine? Interestingly - in the top photo - the load in the end wagon appears 'lumpier' than the loads in the two closest wagons .... any thoughts?

 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[wagonman]

Thanks for the input Richard, very helpful.

 

I have been doing a little digging around regarding deliveries in and traffic out from the wharf at Monsal Dale ... to some extent it calls into question Bill Hudson's figures. It would appear that there was a siding located at Hassop named Monsal Dale siding, and given the facilities at Monsal Dale and the increase in coal delivery from 1900 to 1922 in Bill's figures the consensus currently is that the figures most likely relate to the siding rather than the wharf at Monsal Dale itself. The wharf is set 3'6" above rail top for its entire length and unloading even the 3 - 4 wagons weekly up in to carts and then transporting down the precipitous track and across the ford at the bottom would have been a big ask .... the later 22 wagons weekly is just not credible. I also have figures from the mine which suggest a few thousand tons yearly of calcite were being extracted by this time, and in addition to this there was a limestone quarry on the same site. I therefore suspect that the only incoming coal to the wharf was very small beer .... for domestic delivery by Frank Lomas ( perhaps 2 - 3 hundred tons yearly), and the coal to service the steam pumps to the mine. Apart from this I suspect the wharf was used mainly for shipping out from the mine (edit and quarry).

 

So in terms of the wharf I am thinking in terms of a few Frank Lomas and maybe M.R. or Butterly coal wagons in (D299) and perhaps something else. For shipping out I am inclined to go for 3 plank wagons ... or perhaps 4 ... maybe Midland or perhaps the Buxton Limestone co or ..... ?

 

 

 

 

 

I take your point about the Hassop siding. The 1899 Kelly's entry for Hassop has Tom Wright as the coal merchant, or more specifically 'coal, coke, brick & tile, lime & cement merchant & district agent for the Pinxton collieries, Railway station; & at Darley Dale & Matlock Bath'.

 

My apologies for not realising your research was already several steps ahead of Hudson! BTW Kelly's entry for Lomas only gives Bakewell as his place of trade. Have you seen a MR WTT for this period? They often give marshalling instructions for local goods traffic which can be a useful source. The there is the HM Inspector of Mines and his reports...

 

Richard

[Lecorbusier]

BTW Kelly's entry for Lomas only gives Bakewell as his place of trade. Have you seen a MR WTT for this period? They often give marshalling instructions for local goods traffic which can be a useful source. The there is the HM Inspector of Mines and his reports...

 

Richard

As far as Lomas is concerned I am back with Bill Hudson. In his entry under Monsal Dale he quotes Frank Lomas Junior anecdotally describing his (grand)father's delivery business in Monsal dale including fording the River. Also under the Hassop entry in the same book he also quotes Frank Lomas advising that on occasion wagons would be dispatched to Hassop and  Monsal Dale to be unloaded by customers … usually Farmers.

[Compound2632]

I also have these images of the station siding which shows the kind of traffic. My conclusion here is that we are looking at coal deliveries. reasoning for this is twofold. Firstly the loads are pretty level which suggests they are coming in rather than loading out. Secondly, looking at the wagons (7plank), even at 12T loadings, they would be severely overloaded were they either limestone or spar .... so i am of the opinion that they are coal. Given that final wagon is detached from the other three ... I am hazarding a guess that 1 wagon is delivered for local consumption, and the others relate to the mine? Interestingly - in the top photo - the load in the end wagon appears 'lumpier' than the loads in the two closest wagons .... any thoughts?

 

Monsal Dale-11 copy 2.jpg

 

Midland Official 1910-detail.jpg

 

The detached wagon is lettered M R; it's an end door wagon with 6 planks, the top plank being through, which I think makes it D352, 4000 wagons built 1906-9. Livery practice seems to have been for the letters M R to span the second, third, and fourth planks from the bottom. These were 12 ton wagons with a capacity of 435 cubic feet, according to the diagram.

[wagonman]

I also have these images of the station siding which shows the kind of traffic. My conclusion here is that we are looking at coal deliveries. reasoning for this is twofold. Firstly the loads are pretty level which suggests they are coming in rather than loading out. Secondly, looking at the wagons (7plank), even at 12T loadings, they would be severely overloaded were they either limestone or spar .... so i am of the opinion that they are coal. Given that final wagon is detached from the other three ... I am hazarding a guess that 1 wagon is delivered for local consumption, and the others relate to the mine? Interestingly - in the top photo - the load in the end wagon appears 'lumpier' than the loads in the two closest wagons .... any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Different grade of coal?

[Lecorbusier]

The detached wagon is lettered M R; it's an end door wagon with 6 planks, the top plank being through, which I think makes it D352, 4000 wagons built 1906-9. Livery practice seems to have been for the letters M R to span the second, third, and fourth planks from the bottom. These were 12 ton wagons with a capacity of 435 cubic feet, according to the diagram.

Yep ... you are right.

 

I think the next wagon along may be the same .... but I think has Butterley on it?

 

Can't make out anything on the front two but bot I assume are PO wagons as they have the raised portions over the buffers? Didn't you model one like this earlier in the thread?

[Compound2632]

Yep ... you are right.

 

I think the next wagon along may be the same .... but I think has Butterley on it?

 

Can't make out anything on the front two but bot I assume are PO wagons as they have the raised portions over the buffers? Didn't you model one like this earlier in the thread?

 

The wagon behind the lamp-post seems to be of similar dimensions to the D352 wagon but its distinguishing feature is the external diagonal ironwork from the bottom of the side door to the top of the fixed end, as well as to the door end. I think if that one is Butterley Co., all three are - in the less exposed photo, I think I can make out the initials B C on the nearer wagon too and all three have what I take to be the number in the middle of the side - not so clever, I'd have thought: you can't read the number when the door is down for unloading! Both the little 4-planker and the nearer 6-planker have raised ends, like the Huntley & Palmer wagons I built, but in two different styles. I think this was a common style for 19th century PO wagons - my H&P examples dated from 1873 and 1889. It looks to me as if the end pillars of the nearer wagon are iron or steel T-section rather than wood - indicating an iron or steel underframe too - another 19th century vogue. Three very different wagons from the same fleet, on the same coal delivery! Happy modelling!

[Rail-Online]

Regarding the wagon behind the lamp post, I think it may be a GC 10T end door wagon.  See page 117-8 of the LNER wagons book for those of you that have it, the letter to the right appears to be a C with the fancy top just like the ones the GC used.

 

Tony.

[Compound2632]

Regarding the wagon behind the lamp post, I think it may be a GC 10T end door wagon.  See page 117-8 of the LNER wagons book for those of you that have it, the letter to the right appears to be a C with the fancy top just like the ones the GC used.

 

Tony.

 

G C was my initial thought too, based on the style of the C, as you say. But then Lecorbusier said it was Butterley - I've not seen a Butterley-liveried wagon of this period. Can you convince yourself the other initial is a G not a B? And what about the nearest wagon - the C at least is clear. Was number-on-the-door GC style? It looks much more like a PO than a company wagon to me but I don't know anything at all about MSL wagons (which would be what it is, given its 19th century looks) - I've only ever found one photo and that's a merchandise wagon not mineral - note sheet bar.

 

Anyway, what's a Great Central wagon doing loading to a Midland station, pre-pooling?

[Lecorbusier]

I claim no expertise here, I am very much at the beginning of this journey ... I am simply quoting Bill Hudson ... in through Limestone Hills he captions the photo saying 'On the hillside to the right is the Monsal Dale Spar mine, produce from which is being loaded into the three Butterley wagons for use in thier company's iron works at Codnor Park.'  I am pretty certain they are not spar wagons the density would be too great to allow fully loaded 6 plank wagons. Also I have established that the spar produced by the mine was not Fluor Spar, but Calcite which is used in paint making and Stucco work and so would not have been used in the ironworks.

 

I assumed that with his specialisation in PO wagons however, his assertion that they were Butterley's wagons could be taken at face value? I have to admit the only Butterly wagon i have come across has the full name blazoned across it. However, it does still look like a B to me, it doesn't appear to have the pronounced serif which the top of the G has on images I have seen of the GC wagons.

 

All thoughts gratefully accepted

Edited October 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Andy Hayter]

Difficult to judge from the pictures in B&W but here some thoughts.

 

I agree that the materials look to be low density minerals and coal or coke seems to be the most likely cargoes.

In the first 2 wagons the cargo seems very light in colour - coal is black/brown.  This may be down to the photographic process but it may be an indication of the loads.  

 

Anthracite is (as coals go) very hard and crystalline and reflects light.  It also tends to be mined in smaller lumps than steam or household coal.   If the loads are coal, my best guess is that the first two wagons contain something like anthracite, while the furthest wagon has larger lumps (which would increase the loading level on its own), appears darker and could therefore be a more common or garden grade of coal - steam or household.  It is also possible that it might be coke, but generally coke was carried in wagons with extra framing above the main body.  (There is probably a proper description of these extra frames.)

Edited October 21, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[billbedford]

For a typical 7:1 black to white mix in GWR grey, the fading of the black pigment was a far more significant factor than the darkening of the white.

 

 

Carbon black fades?  

Edited October 21, 2017 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

It is also possible that it might be coke, but generally coke was carried in wagons with extra framing above the main body.  (There is probably a proper description of these extra frames.)

 

Raves? Or is that just a modellers term? But go carefully there, googling 'coke raves' doesn't help...

[57xx]

Grey paint got darker with age because the white lead it was mixed with oxidised over time.

 

Only true if the grey paint formula used white lead. The LMS used zinc white and as they followed MR practice after grouping, presumably the MR also used zinc white.

 

For a typical 7:1 black to white mix in GWR grey, the fading of the black pigment was a far more significant factor than the darkening of the white.

 

Being a MR thread and Brislines pic being of MR wagons, the paint would be around 14:1 zinc white to black (unless 'smudge' had been used). The LMS used between 37:1:1 and 28:1:1 zinc white:black:ultramarine blue. (ref: Essery & Morgan -The LMS Wagon)

[Buhar]

Among other meanings OxfordDictionary has

 

 

noun

• 1A rail of a cart.

   

  1. 1.1 raves A permanent or removable framework added to the sides of a cart to increase its capacity.
      

Origin

Mid 16th century: variant of the synonymous dialect word rathe, of unknown origin.

[Compound2632]

Only true if the grey paint formula used white lead. The LMS used zinc white and as they followed MR practice after grouping, presumably the MR also used zinc white.

 

 

Being a MR thread and Brislines pic being of MR wagons, the paint would be around 14:1 zinc white to black (unless 'smudge' had been used). The LMS used between 37:1:1 and 28:1:1 zinc white:black:ultramarine blue. (ref: Essery & Morgan -The LMS Wagon)

 

Presumably the constituents changed over the years but with the aim of achieving a constant shade of grey when newly painted. Essery, Midland Wagons, Vol. 1 p. 51, quotes Dow for the earliest known specification, of 1888: 112 lb white lead (tub or dry), 9 lb linseed oil, 9 lb turps, 30 lb dryers, 4 lb black and 36 lb boiled oil; Essery goes on to suggest no change until the LMS issued a new specification in 1929. So perhaps the adoption of zinc white dates from 1929? Certainly there would appear to have been no change at Derby at grouping. The photographic evidence is that newly painted Midland wagons were a very light grey but became darker in service, in some cases almost black - this whole question was discussed last year, see post #51 onwards.

 

Pace Bill, there does seem to be evidence that the Great Western grey adopted in 1904 was very dark when new but became lighter in service. I rejected by tin of Precision GWR goods wagon grey as being far too dark; presumably it's intended to match a newly-painted wagon. But that was a subjective decision.

[Nick Holliday]

I claim no expertise here, I am very much at the beginning of this journey ... I am simply quoting Bill Hudson ... in through Limestone Hills he captions the photo saying 'On the hillside to the right is the Monsal Dale Spar mine, produce from which is being loaded into the three Butterley wagons for use in thier company's iron works at Codnor Park.'  I am pretty certain they are not spar wagons the density would be too great to allow fully loaded 6 plank wagons. Also I have established that the spar produced by the mine was not Fluor Spar, but Calcite which is used in paint making and Stucco work and so would not have been used in the ironworks.

 

I assumed that with his specialisation in PO wagons however, his assertion that they were Butterley's wagons could be taken at face value? I have to admit the only Butterly wagon i have come across has the full name blazoned across it. However, it does still look like a B to me, it doesn't appear to have the pronounced serif which the top of the G has on images I have seen of the GC wagons.

 

All thoughts gratefully accepted

Just a long shot, but, as a Southerner, my thoughts had jumped to Brentnall and Cleland, whose wagons were lettered B&C, albeit, latterly, in red, with the full name in white above. A Google search to check details came up with a view from Lightmoor Press archive, showing their wagons at Harworth Colliery in north Nottinghamshire. Prominent in this view were a large number of Harworth Colliery owned wagons, but they were all lettered B W & Co, with the ampersand smaller than the main capitals, and the name of the colliery written on the top plank. This latter livery seems to fit quite well with what can be made out in the photos. The capital B and C are reasonably clear, the W would have been on the door, not a number as some have suggested, and there is a faint indication of some lettering on the top plank, at least on the nearest wagon. The colliery' location is not too unreasonable either.

[Rail-Online]

Has anyone noticed that the cart (& presumably horse) are different in the two views?  Having two employed would suggest that there was quite a movement to/from the wagons and that indeed (as the other wagons appear untouched) unloading of the MR wagon was ongoing. To me would seem to confirm a bulk movement of coal to a large customer.

 

Tony

[micklner]

Nearest wagon B 582 C.  3rd wagon B number C  4th MR

[Compound2632]

Just a long shot, but, as a Southerner, my thoughts had jumped to Brentnall and Cleland, whose wagons were lettered B&C, albeit, latterly, in red, with the full name in white above. A Google search to check details came up with a view from Lightmoor Press archive, showing their wagons at Harworth Colliery in north Nottinghamshire. Prominent in this view were a large number of Harworth Colliery owned wagons, but they were all lettered B W & Co, with the ampersand smaller than the main capitals, and the name of the colliery written on the top plank. This latter livery seems to fit quite well with what can be made out in the photos. The capital B and C are reasonably clear, the W would have been on the door, not a number as some have suggested, and there is a faint indication of some lettering on the top plank, at least on the nearest wagon. The colliery' location is not too unreasonable either.

 

Photo is 1930s.

 

Nearest wagon B 582 C.  3rd wagon B number C  4th MR

 

Or possibly 1582?

 

I do like the art of close reading of these old photos.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Compound2632

[Lecorbusier]

Any consensus on what the B C would stand for .... Butterley Coal,  Bretnal & Cleland, any other suggestions from knowledge of Collieries that might turn up on this line.

[57xx]

Presumably the constituents changed over the years but with the aim of achieving a constant shade of grey when newly painted. Essery, Midland Wagons, Vol. 1 p. 51, quotes Dow for the earliest known specification, of 1888: 112 lb white lead (tub or dry), 9 lb linseed oil, 9 lb turps, 30 lb dryers, 4 lb black and 36 lb boiled oil; Essery goes on to suggest no change until the LMS issued a new specification in 1929. So perhaps the adoption of zinc white dates from 1929? Certainly there would appear to have been no change at Derby at grouping. The photographic evidence is that newly painted Midland wagons were a very light grey but became darker in service, in some cases almost black - this whole question was discussed last year, see post #51 onwards.

 

I had Midland Wagons sat her next to me last night and didn't go far enough in to find that page even though I felt sure I'd seen something on livery in there. Less beer is called for before diving back in the books  So with a 28:1 ratio of lead white:black for MR, this really emphasises how the darkening happens. The paint specification Essery gives for 1929 is the 14:1 ratio (112lb white + 8lb black) but he doesn't specify what type of white pigment is used, only that up to that date they followed Midland practice. The livery with zinc white (and ultramrine blue) was from the paint schedule issued in 1935 in which he lists 16 different mixes. Beer goggles affecting what I read and how I put it across last night again.   

 

I do remember the conversation last year too as I was going to mention about zinc white for the later liveries at that point but never got round to it (not that is relevant to Midland wagons). The basic message was supposed to be that the blanket statements of either "grey liveries darken with age" or "grey liveries faded" are both in/correct, you have to know the paint make up to know which happened.

 

Pace Bill, there does seem to be evidence that the Great Western grey adopted in 1904 was very dark when new but became lighter in service.

 

Going a bit O/T, I'd be interested to see references for this. As Bill says, carbon black/lamp black is renowned for it's resistance to light or chemical fading. I believe from the pics in the GWR bible show variations of the ex-works grey, particularly noticeable on the wagons painted with the black chalk panel in the top right corner, so it was far from a consistent dark grey to start with.

Edited October 22, 2017 by 57xx

[wagonman]

... googling 'coke raves' doesn't help...

 

 

Depends what you're looking for...

[57xx]

Has anyone noticed that the cart (& presumably horse) are different in the two views?  Having two employed would suggest that there was quite a movement to/from the wagons and that indeed (as the other wagons appear untouched) unloading of the MR wagon was ongoing. To me would seem to confirm a bulk movement of coal to a large customer.

 

Tony

 

Looks like the same cart in a different position to me. Notice also how the Stationmaster (?) at the end of the building, notices a picture being taken and wants to get in on the action, posing half way up the platform in the second exposure

[petethemole]

Looking closely, it's not the same cart, the wheels and side supports are different, also the sheet on the horse's back.