More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[BG John]

Ah, the irony of my remark was lost.....   

Somebody once told me I have a singular sense of humour,

I'm the only one who gets / understands it.... 

There's nothing funny about the wetness in Wales. So far today I've got two soaked waterproof coats, a soaked pair of walking boots, and had to change my sweat shirt, T-shirt, jeans and socks. And there's another doggie walk required before bedtime .

[Andy Hayter]

There's nothing funny about the wetness in Wales. So far today I've got two soaked waterproof coats, a soaked pair of walking boots, and had to change my sweat shirt, T-shirt, jeans and socks. And there's another doggie walk required before bedtime .

 

 

 

Oh I don't know - made I smile.

 

Sorry

[BG John]

Oh I don't know - made I smile.

 

Sorry

[wagonbasher]

There's nothing funny about the wetness in Wales. So far today I've got two soaked waterproof coats, a soaked pair of walking boots, and had to change my sweat shirt, T-shirt, jeans and socks. And there's another doggie walk required before bedtime .

 

Still....

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

That's them. On the one hand, as the kit is now available from POWSides at £6.50 - sans wheels and transfers - Ebay suddenly looks less interesting. On the other hand, the Presfix transfer sheets that should come with the boxed kits are well worth having; the HMRS English pre-Grouping except LNWR wagons sheet has the basic lettering but not the numberplates and tare weights, I think. So the Ebay starting price is probably fair but I wouldn't go much above it.

 

EDIT: I've added those and the seller's D305 3-plank dropside wagons (also available from POWSides) to my watch list, just to see what they finally go for!

 

I see the D299 wagons went for £12.10 - £12.76 and the D305 wagons for £11.50 - £12.50, each 3 or 4 bids. Not too unreasonable: POWSides, £6.50, plus say Gibson wheels, £3.00, and MJT bearings, 50p (pro-rata on a packet of 16) = £10, so valuing the pressfix transfers at £1.50 - £2.76. Earlier in the year they had been going for £15 - £18. Let's hope they give their new owners pleasure and are made up into decent models!

[Compound2632]

It’s been three weeks since I posted any modelling – I have a number of projects on the go and am making slow progress on several of them… I’ve had three breakvans looking at me reproachfully from the shelf since July; all have been stuck at the handrail stage – the last piece of brass soldering. With the LNWR D16 break, this is particularly ticklish, since the body is whitemetal. Reference to a photo such as this from the LNWR Society’s website shows that the long horizontal handrail on the bodyside is supported at four points. At the verandah end, it’s fixed behind the vertical handrail, which is awkward to do on a model. At the two middle points, the support from the bodyside is hardly noticeable – a handrail knob would look oversize. I felt the best appearance would be got by soldering the longitudinal handrail to short lengths of wire sticking out from the bodyside, but how to do this – brass to brass with 145°C solder and a hot iron – without risk of damage to the bodyside?

 

Having drilled out all the handrail holes 0.6 mm diameter, just oversize for the 0.5 mm handrail wire, I bent up the vertical handrails, tinned the ends with 145°C solder and fixed by in place with low-melt solder using the temperature-controlled iron applied from the inside of the verandah. I used a piece of thick card as a spacer to try to keep the handrails a uniform distance from the bodyside. Next, I made one horizontal handrail as an elongated L, the short end locating in the hole in the framing at the non-verandah end. I cut a card spacer (which I threw away without photographing) and used this not just to set the handrail at a constant distance from the body but also to protect the whitemetal as I applied a quick dab of 145°C solder to join the long handrail to the vertical handrail – not quite prototypical but effective. I then pushed lengths of handrail wire right through from the far side of the body to make the intermediate supports; again using card as a backing while soldering the joints. These transverse wires can be seen inside the body:

 

 

I trimmed these to length on the far side and attached the handrail on that side in the same way. I did try just a touch of low-temperature solder on the inside to fix the wires in place but I’m not sure this was either effective or necessary. With the handrails on either side joined by the transverse wires, it wasn’t necessary to solder the wire into the holes at the non-verandah end.

 

As if I didn’t have enough wagons on the go, here’s a straightforward build:

 

 

A LSWR 10 ton van from the Cambrian kit, bought at Scaleforum along with a Wheeler & Gregory for another Huntley & Palmers wagon – rather an impulse buy, driven by that being their last exhibition outing before passing the business on – let’s hope the new owner is interested in the pre-grouping part of the range not just all those fishy BR departmental wagons. The one tricky bit was to remove the three triangular brackets from each solebar – this underframe is common with their LSWR 15 ton open but I can’t see that that uses these brackets either… My only departures from the instructions were to drill out the buffer guides for turned metal buffers (to be fitted after painting) and replace the solid moulded brake push-rod safety loops with microstrip as usual – though I see one has broken off. Just door handrails and paint to go – is Southern goods wagon brown the same colour as LSWR goods wagon brown?

 

This van feeds into my Huntley & Palmers project idea, as similar vans appear in photos of the biscuit factory railway system. I know next to nothing about LSWR goods wagons; the instructions give building dates of 1899-1912, with steel-framed and wood-framed versions being built. So far so good for c. 1903, but were steel framed vans among the earlier batches? Mikkel built a wood-framed van from the David Geen kit – I shall be slightly peeved if I find out that would have been more appropriate as David Geen was also at Scaleforum and also apparently on the way out – I did come away with his kit for the L&Y D16 4-plank open, to complete my set of Lanky wagons.  (As well as the D15 3-plank dropside wagon and D3 covered goods wagon already built, I’ve got his kit for the D1 1-plank open in my pile.)

Edited September 2, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Miss Prism]

Very timely. I also know little about these LSWR vans, but I got one of them as well shortly after Scaleforum, so thanks for the link to Mikkel's David Geen wooden-solebar version. (I think I'll go with the 2-shoe, lifting-link, steel solebar, as provided.) The only aspect that puzzles me is whether the door rail protrudes 'in front' of the roof, as Mikkel has it, or is mostly 'under' the roof, as is given in the kit. I note that part of the kit roof has a slight recess. (I don't have the Southern Wagons book to refer to.)

 

I think LSWR brown is the same as SR brown.

[Compound2632]

Very timely. I also know little about these LSWR vans, but I got one of them as well shortly after Scaleforum, so thanks for the link to Mikkel's David Geen wooden-solebar version. (I think I'll go with the 2-shoe, lifting-link, steel solebar, as provided.) The only aspect that puzzles me is whether the door rail protrudes 'in front' of the roof, as Mikkel has it, or is mostly 'under' the roof, as is given in the kit. I note that part of the kit roof has a slight recess. (I don't have the Southern Wagons book to refer to.)

 

I think LSWR brown is the same as SR brown.

 

The roof in the Cambrian kit is moulded to fit around the door rail. Photos of the van at the Bluebell railway do seem to show the rail more in front than under the roof. That van has three open triangular brackets supporting the side rail but not in the same places as the ones removed from the Cambrian bodyside. There's also some variation in planking width; I suspect wider = earlier.

 

I think the one behind the engine in this Huntley & Palmers photo has wooden solebars; it also has no end vents. In his blog post, Mikkel says this style of van was built from 1885 but I should think not the steel-framed version. I continue to claim ignorance - I'm waiting for a LSWR expert to come along...

[Miss Prism]

Reading through Mikkel's version leads to the Finney:

http://website.lineone.net/~cbwesson/Vans%20015%2060.jpg

which shows the roof rail well (and the twin-vee, single-sided brake, which I guess is the early variant before the 'lifting-link, levers both side' arrangement).

 

The Finney also indicates the Cambrian boxes and springs lack depth.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

Reading through Mikkel's version leads to the Finney:

http://website.lineone.net/~cbwesson/Vans%20015%2060.jpg

which shows the roof rail well (and the twin-vee, single-sided brake, which I guess is the early variant before the 'lifting-link, levers both side' arrangement).

 

The Finney also indicates the Cambrian boxes and springs lack depth.

 

Ah well, I wouldn't have built that in an evening!

[wagonbasher]

It’s been three weeks since I posted any modelling – I have a number of projects on the go and am making slow progress on several of them… I’ve had three breakvans looking at me reproachfully from the shelf since July; all have been stuck at the handrail stage – the last piece of brass soldering. With the LNWR D16 break, this is particularly ticklish, since the body is whitemetal. Reference to a photo such as this from the LNWR Society’s website shows that the long horizontal handrail on the bodyside is supported at four points. At the verandah end, it’s fixed behind the vertical handrail, which is awkward to do on a model. At the two middle points, the support from the bodyside is hardly noticeable – a handrail knob would look oversize. I felt the best appearance would be got by soldering the longitudinal handrail to short lengths of wire sticking out from the bodyside, but how to do this – brass to brass with 145°C solder and a hot iron – without risk of damage to the bodyside?

 

Having drilled out all the handrail holes 0.6 mm diameter, just oversize for the 0.5 mm handrail wire, I bent up the vertical handrails, tinned the ends with 145°C solder and fixed by in place with low-melt solder using the temperature-controlled iron applied from the inside of the verandah. I used a piece of thick card as a spacer to try to keep the handrails a uniform distance from the bodyside. Next, I made one horizontal handrail as an elongated L, the short end locating in the hole in the framing at the non-verandah end. I cut a card spacer (which I threw away without photographing) and used this not just to set the handrail at a constant distance from the body but also to protect the whitemetal as I applied a quick dab of 145°C solder to join the long handrail to the vertical handrail – not quite prototypical but effective. I then pushed lengths of handrail wire right through from the far side of the body to make the intermediate supports; again using card as a backing while soldering the joints. These transverse wires can be seen inside the body:

 

LNW D16 10T brake van handrails.JPG

 

I trimmed these to length on the far side and attached the handrail on that side in the same way. I did try just a touch of low-temperature solder on the inside to fix the wires in place but I’m not sure this was either effective or necessary. With the handrails on either side joined by the transverse wires, it wasn’t necessary to solder the wire into the holes at the non-verandah end.

 

As if I didn’t have enough wagons on the go, here’s a straightforward build:

 

LSWR 10 ton van.JPG

 

A LSWR 10 ton van from the Cambrian kit, bought at Scaleforum along with a Wheeler & Gregory for another Huntley & Palmers wagon – rather an impulse buy, driven by that being their last exhibition outing before passing the business on – let’s hope the new owner is interested in the pre-grouping part of the range not just all those fishy BR departmental wagons. The one tricky bit was to remove the three triangular brackets from each solebar – this underframe is common with their LSWR 15 ton open but I can’t see that that uses these brackets either… My only departures from the instructions were to drill out the buffer guides for turned metal buffers (to be fitted after painting) and replace the solid moulded brake push-rod safety loops with microstrip as usual – though I see one has broken off. Just door handrails and paint to go – is Southern goods wagon brown the same colour as LSWR goods wagon brown?

 

This van feeds into my Huntley & Palmers project idea, as similar vans appear in photos of the biscuit factory railway system. I know next to nothing about LSWR goods wagons; the instructions give building dates of 1899-1912, with steel-framed and wood-framed versions being built. So far so good for c. 1903, but were steel framed vans among the earlier batches? Mikkel built a wood-framed van from the David Geen kit – I shall be slightly peeved if I find out that would have been more appropriate as David Geen was also at Scaleforum and also apparently on the way out – I did come away with his kit for the L&Y D16 4-plank open, to complete my set of Lanky wagons.  (As well as the D15 3-plank dropside wagon and D3 covered goods wagon already built, I’ve got his kit for the D1 1-plank open in my pile.)

 

sorry, are Cambrian selling?

 

I only just learnt that Parkside had sold up.

 

What's going on?

 

Is it specter of 3D printing that frightening them off.

 

Andy

[Miss Prism]

Andy:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126507-cambrian-models-current-owners-retiring-4mm-business-for-sale/

[Compound2632]

sorry, are Cambrian selling?

 

I only just learnt that Parkside had sold up.

 

What's going on?

 

Is it specter of 3D printing that frightening them off.

 

Andy

 

Anno Domini. But we hope for the best for both ranges and all concerned. The big question is, will these ranges remain static or continue to be developed?

[Rail-Online]

Brassmasters are going to re-release the Martin Finney LSWR etched with cast fittings wagon kits - the mould for the castings is underway at the moment.

 

Tony

[wagonman]

It’s been three weeks since I posted any modelling – I have a number of projects on the go and am making slow progress on several of them… I’ve had three breakvans looking at me reproachfully from the shelf since July; all have been stuck at the handrail stage – the last piece of brass soldering. With the LNWR D16 break, this is particularly ticklish, since the body is whitemetal. Reference to a photo such as this from the LNWR Society’s website shows that the long horizontal handrail on the bodyside is supported at four points. At the verandah end, it’s fixed behind the vertical handrail, which is awkward to do on a model. At the two middle points, the support from the bodyside is hardly noticeable – a handrail knob would look oversize. I felt the best appearance would be got by soldering the longitudinal handrail to short lengths of wire sticking out from the bodyside, but how to do this – brass to brass with 145°C solder and a hot iron – without risk of damage to the bodyside?

 

Having drilled out all the handrail holes 0.6 mm diameter, just oversize for the 0.5 mm handrail wire, I bent up the vertical handrails, tinned the ends with 145°C solder and fixed by in place with low-melt solder using the temperature-controlled iron applied from the inside of the verandah. I used a piece of thick card as a spacer to try to keep the handrails a uniform distance from the bodyside. Next, I made one horizontal handrail as an elongated L, the short end locating in the hole in the framing at the non-verandah end. I cut a card spacer (which I threw away without photographing) and used this not just to set the handrail at a constant distance from the body but also to protect the whitemetal as I applied a quick dab of 145°C solder to join the long handrail to the vertical handrail – not quite prototypical but effective. I then pushed lengths of handrail wire right through from the far side of the body to make the intermediate supports; again using card as a backing while soldering the joints. These transverse wires can be seen inside the body:

 

LNW D16 10T brake van handrails.JPG

 

I trimmed these to length on the far side and attached the handrail on that side in the same way. I did try just a touch of low-temperature solder on the inside to fix the wires in place but I’m not sure this was either effective or necessary. With the handrails on either side joined by the transverse wires, it wasn’t necessary to solder the wire into the holes at the non-verandah end.

 

As if I didn’t have enough wagons on the go, here’s a straightforward build:

 

LSWR 10 ton van.JPG

 

A LSWR 10 ton van from the Cambrian kit, bought at Scaleforum along with a Wheeler & Gregory for another Huntley & Palmers wagon – rather an impulse buy, driven by that being their last exhibition outing before passing the business on – let’s hope the new owner is interested in the pre-grouping part of the range not just all those fishy BR departmental wagons. The one tricky bit was to remove the three triangular brackets from each solebar – this underframe is common with their LSWR 15 ton open but I can’t see that that uses these brackets either… My only departures from the instructions were to drill out the buffer guides for turned metal buffers (to be fitted after painting) and replace the solid moulded brake push-rod safety loops with microstrip as usual – though I see one has broken off. Just door handrails and paint to go – is Southern goods wagon brown the same colour as LSWR goods wagon brown?

 

This van feeds into my Huntley & Palmers project idea, as similar vans appear in photos of the biscuit factory railway system. I know next to nothing about LSWR goods wagons; the instructions give building dates of 1899-1912, with steel-framed and wood-framed versions being built. So far so good for c. 1903, but were steel framed vans among the earlier batches? Mikkel built a wood-framed van from the David Geen kit – I shall be slightly peeved if I find out that would have been more appropriate as David Geen was also at Scaleforum and also apparently on the way out – I did come away with his kit for the L&Y D16 4-plank open, to complete my set of Lanky wagons.  (As well as the D15 3-plank dropside wagon and D3 covered goods wagon already built, I’ve got his kit for the D1 1-plank open in my pile.)

 

 

The LSWR vans are a bit of a minefield! So far as I can see, the high roof version with Panter brake, oil 'boxes and steel frames (as per your model) were dia 1406 built in 1912; Fox pressed steel underframes had been used since 1899, though, but you'd need a lower roofed version with ordinary brakes and grease 'boxes such as dia 1410. Does anyone produce a kit? I've not idea. Will anybody notice? I've no idea.

[Compound2632]

The LSWR vans are a bit of a minefield! So far as I can see, the high roof version with Panter brake, oil 'boxes and steel frames (as per your model) were dia 1406 built in 1912; Fox pressed steel underframes had been used since 1899, though, but you'd need a lower roofed version with ordinary brakes and grease 'boxes such as dia 1410. Does anyone produce a kit? I've not idea. Will anybody notice? I've no idea.

 

Interesting - Cambrian claim the kit is (Southern) D1410. The Geen whitemetal kit also claims to be D1410 but with wooden frames, it also has wider planks - 8 to the side rather than 11 on the Cambrian van. Judging from the photos on Mikkel's blog, the X-frames are possibly closer to right angles to each other so it may be a little lower. Oh well, I'll transfer the Cambrian van to my 1922 shelf and look out for the Geen kit before he disappears!

[wagonman]

Interesting - Cambrian claim the kit is (Southern) D1410. The Geen whitemetal kit also claims to be D1410 but with wooden frames, it also has wider planks - 8 to the side rather than 11 on the Cambrian van. Judging from the photos on Mikkel's blog, the X-frames are possibly closer to right angles to each other so it may be a little lower. Oh well, I'll transfer the Cambrian van to my 1922 shelf and look out for the Geen kit before he disappears!

 

 

The D1410 were built with wooden underframes too – the earlier ones (1885 on) were all wood framed. The use of 6.5" and 8.5" planks also causes confusion! The 'low' vans were approx 11ft from rail to roof centreline while the 'high' ones were about 7 inches higher. Not easy to determine just by looking, so maybe your model is D1410. If it is the 'low' version then all you'll have to do is change the axleboxes to grease type, and possibly the brake gear...and before you ask, I can't find a diagram of the Panter brake! Bixley et al seem oddly reticent. Does the South Western Circle still exist?

[Compound2632]

Please may I put a couple of questions about the D16 brake van to any LNWR experts out there:

 

1. Were the windows in the outside end of the verandah glazed?

 

2. What is the hole at waist height in the middle of each end for?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

For LSWR enthusiasts, I can report that the Cambrian 10 ton van is 44 mm = 11' from rail level to top of roof, so it's a 'low roof' one, which possibly means it's eligible for c. 1903 if given grease axleboxes and w/o the Panter or 'lift' brake as the Cambrian instructions describe it. Does anyone know when the change from 8.5" to 6.5" planking occurred? The South Western Circle does indeed seem still to be active, though their website is perhaps unwisely headed by a picture of one of the great Dugald's sins of his old age, an F13 4-6-0. I'd have gone for an Adams 4-4-0 myself!

 

Whilst we're working round the ordinal points of the compass, I've been looking at the available kits for GSWR wagons that will pass for c. 1903, working south via the Settle & Carlisle. 51L's 10 ton open wagon (Diagram 15) seems to be the sole candidate. When did the GSWR adopt large lettering and, if later than c. 1895, what went before?

 

No NER or SER questions for now! Though I'm still hankering after one of those round-ended SER wagons and the antique looking covered goods wagons too - both as seen here.

 

Neither can I find any justification for goods stock from the other GSWR or the DSER.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

Only the small windows at the plain end and inner end of the veranda were glazed.

 

The red tail lamps were positioned behind the holes in the van ends.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[airnimal]

Compound2632, I do not know anything about L.S.W.R wagons but I have a little knowledge about Dia 16 brake vans. I believe that the windows were glazed at both ends. The hole in the centre of both ends was for a tail lamp that could be accessed from the inside. They were later changed to to outside lamps after complaints about fumes from the guards. I have being trying for a long time to find good information about these brake vans. I have 3 drawings, one works drawing, and two modellers drawings. All are different and none show both end elevation which are different because the window height are different. Only time will tell when Vol 3 of the L.N.W.R wagon book appears.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The lamps may also have been moved "outside" so that they could be seen from the loco (the small white light to the reverse of the red lens)  to indicate that the train was still intact, but I can't recall where I read that.

[wagonbasher]

The lamps may also have been moved "outside" so that they could be seen from the loco (the small white light to the reverse of the red lens)  to indicate that the train was still intact, but I can't recall where I read that.

What sort of date saw the tail lamps move outside.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Jol Wilkinson]

What sort of date saw the tail lamps move outside.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

A little research (not too difficult for anyone to do) on the LNWR Society website shows an undated photo of a D16 with what appears to be a lamp bracket on the outside end pillar of the veranda.

 

An official photo of a D17 six wheel brake van, dated 1909. shows a lamp fitted in that position.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/brakes/Diag017.php

 

So pre 1909 would be to be definite, but I don't know more than that.

[Rail-Online]

 

No NER or SER questions for now! Though I'm still hankering after one of those round-ended SER wagons and the antique looking covered goods wagons too - both as seen here.

 

.

 

Hi,

K's used to do a kit for the outside framed covered goods wagon.  The chassis was rubbish and I have not compared it to drawings though.........

 

Tony

[Brassey]

The lamps may also have been moved "outside" so that they could be seen from the loco (the small white light to the reverse of the red lens)  to indicate that the train was still intact, but I can't recall where I read that.

 

The tail lamp in the centre was mounted on a shelf inside the van so that it can be tended from the inside, with the light shining through a hole in the end wall. 

Later a hinged flap was provided at the end, giving access to lamp brackets which held the lamp outside. The side lamps are on hinged brackets so that they could be rotated out of sight when not in use or for attention. In addition to the bracket being hinged, the lamp itself can rotate on the bracket in order to present different colours for different purposes. Normally three red lamps were shown at the rear of goods trains, but where there were extra tracks, the following lights had to be shown to indicate to following trains which line the train was travelling on:

Four track sections, 3 red lights on the fast line, but when on the slow line a while light on the side nearest to the fast line.

Loop lines adjacent to double track lines, a while light on the side nearest the main line.

Loop lines off four track lines, both side lamps to be removed.

Where brake vans were left in goods yards, guards were required to turn the sidelights inside before leaving the van. 

 

Source: Richard Foster "Forty Years of the London and North Western Railway Society"

Edited October 8, 2017 by Brassey