More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Likewise you cannot stack 8t grain in 1cwt (roughly 50kg) sacks in anything less than a 5 plank wagon without having to do some very severe lashing down to ensure that the stack of sacks does not fall off.  [Do not be misled into thinking that a wagon sheet will hold the load in place.   It won't.  The sheet provides weather protection and just possibly some very minimal aid to load stability, but if a load starts to move the sheet will not hold it in place. ]

 

Oh dear. And I was copying an official "how to load sacks" photo. Would the sacks next be roped before being sheeted? A sheet covers a multitude of sins!

[Nick Holliday]

.

I'd been wondering about the loading of building stone, as I have a Cambrian kit of a Gloucester 1-plank wagon that I built a while ago but have just got POWSides "Bath Stone Firms" transfers for. The snag is that the reference photos I had until seeing this one were from the Keith Montague Gloucester wagon book, and are of steel-framed rather than wood framed wagons. All the stone seems to be rough-cut large pieces, presumably more-or-less as they came out of the quarry.

 .

You might be interested to know that Gramodels make a range of 4mm LSWR wagon bodies in cast resin. These include one and three plank wagons, with both steel and wooden underframes. I have bought a few, and they are nice castings, but I haven't got round to completing the work, so I can't vouch for the ease of construction.

[Mikkel]

You might be interested to know that Gramodels make a range of 4mm LSWR wagon bodies in cast resin. These include one and three plank wagons, with both steel and wooden underframes. I have bought a few, and they are nice castings, but I haven't got round to completing the work, so I can't vouch for the ease of construction.

 

Here's my take on the Gramodels one-planker - the body does needs a little work, but turns out well enough. For the running gear etc I used parts from an ABS kit.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Oh dear. And I was copying an official "how to load sacks" photo. Would the sacks next be roped before being sheeted? A sheet covers a multitude of sins!

 

I think that picture demonstrates admirably why a high sided wagon is needed for such loads.

 

Regarding roping; I have no documentary evidence but my feelings are that it would be necessary.  This is based on 1980s - noughties experience where H&S was far more important than a century earlier, but even then the company would not be happy with sacks or their contents being strewn across the line.   If you look to the far end of the wagon, the top central bag is pushing down and outwards on the last bag on the layer below.  In being moved, one of two things is going to happen.  Either the grain is going to be joggled down in each of the bags and the bags will settle into one another and lock together, or before that settling happens the rear sack at the next-to-top layer will be pushed outwards, the top sack slumps down into the gap and increases the outward push on this sack to the point where it becomes essentially detached from the stack.  If it moves to start hanging over the back corner of the wagon then there has to be a good chance of the jute snagging and tearing and the grain then spilling out along the line. 

 

Once one bag has moved it increases the likelihood that others will also shift as the load becomes unbalanced.

[billbedford]

 Likewise you cannot stack 8t grain in 1cwt (roughly 50kg) sacks in anything less than a 5 plank wagon without having to do some very severe lashing down to ensure that the stack of sacks does not fall off.  [Do not be misled into thinking that a wagon sheet will hold the load in place.   It won't.  The sheet provides weather protection and just possibly some very minimal aid to load stability, but if a load starts to move the sheet will not hold it in place. ]

 

 

Really?

 

 

There are other photos floating around which show similar arrangements.

[billbedford]

Oh dear. And I was copying an official "how to load sacks" photo. Would the sacks next be roped before being sheeted? A sheet covers a multitude of sins!

 

 

Definitely over loaded, unless the sacks contained bran.

[Lecorbusier]

Slightly off at a tangent here, but......... 

 

I am looking to put together a  permanent way set midland circa 1902 to run behind a Johnson 1f 0-6-0T. I wondered if anyone had any suggestion for a suitable make up and appropriate kits out there?

 

I note Dave Green does a kit for the 8T double bolster wagon (from 1896) which might suite for rail/sleepers ?

 

Would ballast be in a 2 or three plank? I note that Mousa are doing low sided midland wagons (C1882)?

 

What else would have been on the train .... would there have been a workman's 4 wheeled coach? How many wagons would there have been?

 

Grateful for any input, suggestions or leads  

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Andy Hayter]

Bill

79 sacks and a tare of 7t 18cwt suggests 2cwt (100kg) sacks, so not quite the same thing but I take the point.  Are we sure that is grain?  It looks more dense to me, but I could easily be wrong.

[Compound2632]

I think that picture demonstrates admirably why a high sided wagon is needed for such loads.

 

Regarding roping; I have no documentary evidence but my feelings are that it would be necessary.  This is based on 1980s - noughties experience where H&S was far more important than a century earlier, but even then the company would not be happy with sacks or their contents being strewn across the line.   If you look to the far end of the wagon, the top central bag is pushing down and outwards on the last bag on the layer below.  In being moved, one of two things is going to happen.  Either the grain is going to be joggled down in each of the bags and the bags will settle into one another and lock together, or before that settling happens the rear sack at the next-to-top layer will be pushed outwards, the top sack slumps down into the gap and increases the outward push on this sack to the point where it becomes essentially detached from the stack.  If it moves to start hanging over the back corner of the wagon then there has to be a good chance of the jute snagging and tearing and the grain then spilling out along the line. 

 

Once one bag has moved it increases the likelihood that others will also shift as the load becomes unbalanced.

 

 

Really?

 

MR three plank open.png

 

There are other photos floating around which show similar arrangements.

 

My D299 loaded with sacks was based on Plate 94 in Midland Wagons Vol.1; there's one layer of sacks placed vertically (seen through the open side door) then two layers of sacks laid horizontally crossways with a 'capping' layer of three longways on top. I presumed that like the D305 3-plank wagon Bill posted, the sacks are interlocked drystone-wall fashion. (It must have been a bit annoying not to be able to place that 80th sack to get the fill 8 tons load!) Unless someone turns up the wagon loading manual, we'll never know.

 

Slightly off at a tangent here, but......... 

 

I am looking to put together a  permanent way set midland circa 1902 to run behind a Johnson 1f 0-6-0T. I wondered if anyone had any suggestion for a suitable make up and appropriate kits out there?

 

I note Dave Green does a kit for the 8T double bolster wagon (from 1896) which might suite for rail/sleepers ?

 

Would ballast be in a 2 or three plank? I note that Mousa are doing low sided midland wagons (C1872)?

 

What else would have been on the train .... would there have been a workman's 4 wheeled coach? How many wagons would there have been?

 

Grateful for any input, suggestions or leads  

 

10 ton Ballast Brake Van, D839, 98 built 1888-99: the ex-D&S etched kit is available from London Road Models.

 

Ballast wagons: D305 3-plank dropside wagons were used, branded E D in place of M R and painted red - the ex-Slater's kit now available from POWSides. (But what red?) Earlier on, pre-Lot Book 3-plank dropside wagons were used, the sort I see Bill now has available - as seen in a pre-1907 photo of St Albans shed [Hawkins and Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) p. 180]. I'd say these are grey rather than red. The distinguishing features are wooden brake-blocks and extended headstocks, acting as dropside door stops, on the pre-Lot Book version. D305 used the standard underframe so had door banger blocks added to the ends of the sides; these need to be added to the Slater's kit. Ballast wagons had flaps (leather?) over the axleboxes.

 

That should do for routine ballasting. If you have some re-laying in mind, there are the various Stores Dept. wagons: the D334 Long Rail Wagon discussed a few posts back and its shorter brother, D335, along with the two varieties of Sleeper Wagon D306, with six plank fixed sides, and D307 where someone had had the bright idea of making the top three planks into a dropside door. As far as I'm aware none of these are available as kits in 4 mm scale. Then of course you might need a crane - and match wagons D738. Then one gets onto the really interesting question of breakdown riding and tool vans...

 

EDIT: The double bolster wagon, D339/D339A has the same overall dimensions as the short rail wagon D335 / D335A but whereas the bolster wagon appears to have wooden solebars strengthened with an iron or steel flitch-plate, both species of rail wagon have iron or steel channel solebars, which give them quite a different look. It may be that that only worries me because I've spent too much tome staring at photos of Midland wagons...

Edited October 18, 2017 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

You might be interested to know that Gramodels make a range of 4mm LSWR wagon bodies in cast resin. These include one and three plank wagons, with both steel and wooden underframes. I have bought a few, and they are nice castings, but I haven't got round to completing the work, so I can't vouch for the ease of construction.

 

 

Here's my take on the Gramodels one-planker - the body does needs a little work, but turns out well enough. For the running gear etc I used parts from an ABS kit.

 

IMG_2354.jpg

 

I'd not seen this range before - that's a black mark against me for inattention when reading the Farthing blog...

 

I think I'm safe from LSWR wagons for the time being.

[Lecorbusier]

Apologies for the basic questions below ... if you don't ask you never learn!

10 ton Ballast Brake Van, D839, 98 built 1888-99: the ex-D&S etched kit is available from London Road Models. Not sure exactly what this is? Would this have been used on small permanent way train? ... or is it for a ballast train? .... is it for transporting the way gang or just a specialist brake van?

 

Ballast wagons: D305 3-plank dropside wagons were used, branded E D in place of M R and painted red - the ex-Slater's kit now available from POWSides. (But what red?) Earlier on, pre-Lot Book 3-plank dropside wagons were used, the sort I see Bill now has available - as seen in a pre-1907 photo of St Albans shed [Hawkins and Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) p. 180]. I'd say these are grey rather than red. The distinguishing features are wooden brake-blocks and extended headstocks, acting as dropside door stops, on the pre-Lot Book version. I think that there is a later version also on the Mousa web site which I think is incorrectly dated 1872 instead of 1882? Probably what would have been used on a small permanent way train at Monsal Dale circa 1902?

 

D305 used the standard underframe so had door banger blocks added to the ends of the sides; these need to be added to the Slater's kit. Ballast wagons had flaps (leather?) over the axleboxes.

 

That should do for routine ballasting. If you have some re-laying in mind, there are the various Stores Dept. wagons: the D334 Long Rail Wagon discussed a few posts back and its shorter brother, D335, along with the two varieties of Sleeper Wagon D306, with six plank fixed sides, and D307 where someone had had the bright idea of making the top three planks into a dropside door. As far as I'm aware none of these are available as kits in 4 mm scale. I had assumed that the level of maintenance train I would be considering would be ballasting, replacing keys and the odd rotten sleeper .... but not full on track laying .... so no crane? and perhaps the D339 would be ok for sleepers?

 

Then of course you might need a crane - and match wagons D738. Then one gets onto the really interesting question of breakdown riding and tool vans...

 

EDIT: The double bolster wagon, D339/D339A has the same overall dimensions as the short rail wagon D335 / D335A but whereas the bolster wagon appears to have wooden solebars strengthened with an iron or steel flitch-plate, both species of rail wagon have iron or steel channel solebars, which give them quite a different look. It may be that that only worries me because I've spent too much tome staring at photos of Midland wagons...

The only image I have found of a permanent way team to date is a very poor one at Bakewell station, but you can I think just make out the Ballast Brake Van 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index.shtml

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Andy Hayter]

Bill

79 sacks and a tare of 7t 18cwt suggests 2cwt (100kg) sacks, so not quite the same thing but I take the point.  Are we sure that is grain?  It looks more dense to me, but I could easily be wrong.

 

Looks like it could indeed be grain.  A (less than) quick calculation suggests that if the bags are around 5ft long, 2ft high and a maximum 1ft high - but around half that on average across the width of the bag - all of which is suggested from the photo - then the density of the product would be around 0.74kg/cu.m and wheat has an indicative density of 0.75kg/cu.m (other grains are a little less) 

[Compound2632]

Looks like it could indeed be grain.  A (less than) quick calculation suggests that if the bags are around 5ft long, 2ft high and a maximum 1ft high - but around half that on average across the width of the bag - all of which is suggested from the photo - then the density of the product would be around 0.74kg/cu.m and wheat has an indicative density of 0.75kg/cu.m (other grains are a little less) 

 

A rough count of the sacks in my D299 reference photo suggests no more than 80 sacks, probably less, so although it's a deeper wagon than the D305, it's about the same load.

[Compound2632]

Apologies for the basic questions below ... if you don't ask you never learn!

The only image I have found of a permanent way team to date is a very poor one at Bakewell station, but you can I think just make out the Ballast Brake Van 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index.shtml

 

I suppose the ballast brake van was for two purposes: as the brake van for a ballast (or other p/way) train and to carry the workmen.

 

The two sketches Bill uses to illustrate his two dropside wagons are Figs. 31 and 32 in Midland Wagons Vol. 1. There the version with cast rather than wooden brake blocks is described as c. 1882. I wasn't precise enough in what I wrote above; looking again at Midland Wagons, I see that D305 wagons were built to Drawing 213 in the 1880s (4750 wagons) and then Drawing 1143 from 1897 onwards (only 1500 built before 1905). Drawing 213 shows the slope-ended headstocks acting as door stops, like the wooden-brakeblocked pre-Lot Book wagons; Drawing 1143 shows the standard square-ended headstocks with door bangers on the sides. So in fact we're in the luxurious position of having all three versions available: pre-Lot Book and Drawing 213 from Mousa and Drawing 1143 from POWsides (ex Slater's). For your date (pre-1905?) I doubt the fairly new Drawing 1143 wagons would be in departmental use.

 

Just to add to the fun, I note that the two wagons visible in the Bakewell phot are D299 5-plank wagons with their doors dropped down!

[Edwardian]

Here's my take on the Gramodels one-planker - the body does needs a little work, but turns out well enough. For the running gear etc I used parts from an ABS kit.

 

IMG_2354.jpg

 

Nice job.

 

What do you get in a Gramodels wagon kit, Mikkel?

 

The website and the catalogue (which was indecipherable to me until I printed it off and folded it like the booklet it is!) are not very explicit.

 

I notice with interest that Gramodels has introduced LSWR 42' coaches.

[Mikkel]

Nice job.

 

What do you get in a Gramodels wagon kit, Mikkel?

 

The website and the catalogue (which was indecipherable to me until I printed it off and folded it like the booklet it is!) are not very explicit.

 

I notice with interest that Gramodels has introduced LSWR 42' coaches.

 

You only get the body. I did a build description here, which shows what you get:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-16039-lswr-stone-wagon/

[John_Miles]

My D299 loaded with sacks was based on Plate 94 in Midland Wagons Vol.1; there's one layer of sacks placed vertically (seen through the open side door) then two layers of sacks laid horizontally crossways with a 'capping' layer of three longways on top. I presumed that like the D305 3-plank wagon Bill posted, the sacks are interlocked drystone-wall fashion. (It must have been a bit annoying not to be able to place that 80th sack to get the fill 8 tons load!) Unless someone turns up the wagon loading manual, we'll never know.

 

 

10 ton Ballast Brake Van, D839, 98 built 1888-99: the ex-D&S etched kit is available from London Road Models.

 

Ballast wagons: D305 3-plank dropside wagons were used, branded E D in place of M R and painted red - the ex-Slater's kit now available from POWSides. (But what red?) Earlier on, pre-Lot Book 3-plank dropside wagons were used, the sort I see Bill now has available - as seen in a pre-1907 photo of St Albans shed [Hawkins and Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) p. 180]. I'd say these are grey rather than red. The distinguishing features are wooden brake-blocks and extended headstocks, acting as dropside door stops, on the pre-Lot Book version. D305 used the standard underframe so had door banger blocks added to the ends of the sides; these need to be added to the Slater's kit. Ballast wagons had flaps (leather?) over the axleboxes.

 

That should do for routine ballasting. If you have some re-laying in mind, there are the various Stores Dept. wagons: the D334 Long Rail Wagon discussed a few posts back and its shorter brother, D335, along with the two varieties of Sleeper Wagon D306, with six plank fixed sides, and D307 where someone had had the bright idea of making the top three planks into a dropside door. As far as I'm aware none of these are available as kits in 4 mm scale. Then of course you might need a crane - and match wagons D738. Then one gets onto the really interesting question of breakdown riding and tool vans...

 

EDIT: The double bolster wagon, D339/D339A has the same overall dimensions as the short rail wagon D335 / D335A but whereas the bolster wagon appears to have wooden solebars strengthened with an iron or steel flitch-plate, both species of rail wagon have iron or steel channel solebars, which give them quite a different look. It may be that that only worries me because I've spent too much tome staring at photos of Midland wagons...

 

I built an engineer's train around 15 years ago using the components suggested above. I asked around about the red colour and the advice I received was red lead as in primer colour. I can't absolutely say it is correct but being colour blind helps me to believe it is just fine.

[Compound2632]

I built an engineer's train around 15 years ago using the components suggested above. I asked around about the red colour and the advice I received was red lead as in primer colour. I can't absolutely say it is correct but being colour blind helps me to believe it is just fine.

 

I've become a believer in the red lead theory - not just in the context of GW wagon red; it seems to be the conclusion the Caledonian modellers on here have come to too. It seems the simplest answer to the Midland engineers wagons. However, I do have just a niggling doubt, looking the cranes and match wagons chapter in Midland Wagons and the articles on cranes by David Hunt in Midland Record. Match wagons seem mostly to be dark, presumed red, matching the cranes. The Cowans Sheldon 15 ton steam cranes seem to have been a plane dark colour all over when first delivered - again presumed 'red'. But in some photos they're lined out locomotive-style. This makes me wonder if they were painted locomotive red, in which case match wagons may have been painted the same colour. There has been much discussion of the plain livery worn by some Midland goods engines in the early years of the 20th century, which was eventually resolved in favour of chocolate brown being a distinct colour used. But it seemed to be the case that unlined locomotive red was described by some contemporary observers, including Ahrons, as 'brick red'. It's undoubtedly true that the yellow and black lining 'lifts' the red colour; an unlined engine (or crane) could appear to be a duller shade of red than a fully-lined one.

 

The primer and base coat for crimson lake were specified to be either 'lead' or 'oxide of iron' (Essery & Jenkinson, An Illustrated History of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 1, quote a specification given by Derby to Sharp, Stewart).

[Edwardian]

You only get the body. I did a build description here, which shows what you get:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-16039-lswr-stone-wagon/

 

Which, I see, includes the solebars and headstocks, which is good to know.

 

Great build you did. 

[57xx]

Interesting Stephen,

 

I have found images such as this one

 

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/x447.htm

 

But this of course is a 12T wagon ... which would work with my figures above.

 

Oo I like that, the prototype pic for an old ebay purchase of mine - someone spotted it on my workbench thread and was curious about it.

[Penlan]

Even the LNWR had some red wagons* - Old wagons, unfit for revenue service were marked up for 'Internal use only', and a zero placed in front of the running number.
There is a model of one by J.P.Richards in the display case at NRM.

 

* Over and above the red painted Gunpowder Vans - though thought to have been painted grey after 1908.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Penlan

[Brislines]

I have Just discovered this thread and have realised that it parallels so much of what I am working on. Eventually I hope to build a LNWR 'A' Class to head a full length mineral train in '00' gauge, 1900's era... So when I found this it was 'sensory overload!'    I have attached some examples of wagons I have built so far... Comments invited.

[Compound2632]

I have Just discovered this thread and have realised that it parallels so much of what I am working on. Eventually I hope to build a LNWR 'A' Class to head a full length mineral train in '00' gauge, 1900's era... So when I found this it was 'sensory overload!'    I have attached some examples of wagons I have built so far... Comments invited.

Wagons 3.JPG

 

Great minds think alike. My only in-period LNWR engine is the Bachmann Coal Tank and even that ought to be lined rather than plain black. A Coal Engine or a Special DX would probably be right but I did fanaticise about an 'A' some posts back - it's the heavily pregnant front end that does it for me. Do you think the London Road Models 'C' would be a practical starting point? I do have a Bachmann Super D but that's for my 1950s mode!

 

I like the West Cannock Wagons. I need to do some finding out about the Cannock Chase collieries, to work out which ones were connected to the Midland (especially via the Walsall Wood branch) and which to the North Western.

[Brislines]

Great minds think alike. My only in-period LNWR engine is the Bachmann Coal Tank and even that ought to be lined rather than plain black. A Coal Engine or a Special DX would probably be right but I did fanaticise about an 'A' some posts back - it's the heavily pregnant front end that does it for me. Do you think the London Road Models 'C' would be a practical starting point? I do have a Bachmann Super D but that's for my 1950s mode!

 

I like the West Cannock Wagons. I need to do some finding out about the Cannock Chase collieries, to work out which ones were connected to the Midland (especially via the Walsall Wood branch) and which to the North Western.

Hi Compound,

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

I actually have a complete BIWO kit for an 'A' Class but don't want to risk ruining it as it obviously has some collectors value. I trawled a well known online auction website and purchased a Bachmann Super D as a donor for the chassis to save a lot of work, but feel that a smaller motor will need fitting as the earlier boiler on the 'A' is, of course, a smaller diameter. As you say the C1 would be a good starting point...Although I was thinking 'Oh! That front end!' myself! 

 

As regards collieries I have done some limited research on the subject and I can recommend 'Walsall's Engine Shed' by Jack Haddock as it details colliery train workings from the Cannock pits in some detail. I believe Walsall Wood Colliery fed into Norton Junction and this was LNWR although Walsall Wood was a Midland station and had a connection to the Midlands Water Orton line at Aldridge. (If that sheds any light your way?)

[Jol Wilkinson]

The BIWO "A" Class kit has been marketed by LRM for it's designer/manufacturer. While technically no longer in production I believe that at least one small batch was produced earlier this year, It's disappointing that Brislines doesn't want to build his, preferring to hang on to it as a collectors investment. 

 

An A Class could be produced from a LRM C class. Roger Stapleton made several of the LNWR  eight coupled variants from the C kit for his LNWR Steam Shed OO layout. The LRM ClassC is a pretty straightforward kit so I expect the A shouldn't be too difficult, although I haven't built one.. You could always get a professional builder to do the boiler/smokebox for you and do the rest yourself.

 

I prefer the C and the F to all the other eight coupled LNWR locos but there isn't a kit for the F Class AFAIK and I don't fancy kit bashing one, I've plenty of other stuff in the stack as it is.