More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, queensquare said:

I was really impressed with them, some of the best wagon  prints I’ve seen. 

 

Is that Precision Midland freight stock green you're using there? (They didn't look so green in the flesh.)

[queensquare]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that Precision Midland freight stock green you're using there? (They didn't look so green in the flesh.)

First the lettering was wrong, then the two types didn’t run together, now the colours wrong. Come on Stephen, at least they they don’t run on 4’ gauge track. 
 

Jerry, finding the constant negative comments a little tiresome.

 

 

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

 

 

 

I’ve just realised why these weren’t running on the layout at the weekend 😉🙊

 

Ive no need for MR loco coal wagons but should definitely have some of the others, suited to ~1920

[Andy Vincent]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

 

Please stop producing so many tempting wagons. I have too many already . . .

Some hope

 

I do have a copy of the Rhymney drawings book if we want to see how strongly you can really resist temptation!

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, queensquare said:

Jerry, finding the constant negative comments a little tiresome.

 

My apologies, I regret that you've taken my remarks the wrong way. It was merely intended as a light-hearted dig at Precision, rather than you. They are very nice wagons and when I saw them in the flesh, they didn't look greenish - must be the lighting in the photo.

 

And I'll have you know my stuff runs on 4' 1½" gauge - that's only 7" under true scale gauge, not 8½"...

 

 

Edited May 16 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

"I do have a copy of the Rhymney drawings book if we want to see how strongly you can really resist temptation!"

So do I and I have built most of them, plus the only two wagon kits ever produced.

But you must have read my mind when I was on the bus today, thinking that a couple more Rhymney wagons wouldn't go amiss.

Jonathan

[Andy Vincent]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

They are very nice wagons and when I saw them in the flesh, they didn't look greenish

They certainly looked fine to me on Saturday - and infinitely better than the dark plastic objects I presented Jerry with a few weeks ago! I have even greater admiration for 2mm gauge modellers having now produced bodies that seemed tiny enough without someone taking them, fitting underframes and then painting and finishing.

[Andy Vincent]

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

The size of the 2mm market means Andy won’t be retiring  on the proceeds but I’m hoping g he will do a few more of the MR wagons he has planned in 2mm

Going forward all my wagons are '2mm capable' in that the drawings are structured such that I can produce a dedicated 2mm version (not just a uniformly scaled version) in under half an hour. This applies today to all the Chas Roberts, MR and RCH 1923 wagons. The Gloucester wagons pre-date the necessary changes in approach but I am updating the 16'6" Gloucester drawings this week to bring them in line ahead of a new 16'6" body. I will get to the 15' and 16' externally braced Gloucesters in the coming several weeks but the internally braced  ones will take a while longer.

 

Aside from requests for 7mm versions from this group, I now also have requests for 3mm versions so more scales may well follow but it is somewhat dependent on understanding what form the running gear will take in each scale so that appropriate accommodations  can be made (such as removing the solebar on the 2mm version whilst still being able to print it successfully!).

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...7'...true...gauge...

 

@Annie, I think you can chalk that one up as a win!

 

@billbedford, best wishes. Sounds like a rough old time, here's to a smooth and speedy recovery.

[Annie]

37 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I think you can chalk that one up as a win!

Stephen calling the 7 ft gauge 'true scale gauge' is definitely one for the books.

[Compound2632]

Seven inches! (Corrected in post.)

As for the selective quoting...

[queensquare]

13 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

I’ve just realised why these weren’t running on the layout at the weekend 😉🙊

 

Ive no need for MR loco coal wagons but should definitely have some of the others, suited to ~1920

Thanks Richard, I managed to get them painted and weathered but no couplings yet!

 

Jerry

[65179]

12 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Going forward all my wagons are '2mm capable' in that the drawings are structured such that I can produce a dedicated 2mm version (not just a uniformly scaled version) in under half an hour. This applies today to all the Chas Roberts, MR and RCH 1923 wagons. The Gloucester wagons pre-date the necessary changes in approach but I am updating the 16'6" Gloucester drawings this week to bring them in line ahead of a new 16'6" body. I will get to the 15' and 16' externally braced Gloucesters in the coming several weeks but the internally braced  ones will take a while longer.

 

Aside from requests for 7mm versions from this group, I now also have requests for 3mm versions so more scales may well follow but it is somewhat dependent on understanding what form the running gear will take in each scale so that appropriate accommodations  can be made (such as removing the solebar on the 2mm version whilst still being able to print it successfully!).

 

These MR wagons look lovely Andy, and some of those you've made 2mm capable sound very interesting.  Do you have any plans to do a 2mm MR D302 or D663A?

 

Thanks,

Simon

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Do you have any plans to do a 2mm MR D302 or D663A?

 

A reminder to all and sundry that there were only twelve wagons to D302, Drg. 1490, Lot 506 of March 1901. The wagons Essery lists as D302, to Drg. 3843, Lot 852 of Feb 1913, et seq., are diagram D663A, along with those to Drg. 5279, Lot 959 of Jan 1921 et seq. 

 

Without re-hashing the argument from the dimensions quoted on the drawings and diagrams, it is sufficient to note that D663A appears printed on a bound page in the c. 1914/15 wagon diagram book! (Unlike, say, D818, which is an inserted page.)

Edited May 16 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

41 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Do you have any plans to do a 2mm MR D302 or D663A?

That probably depends, as far as timing goes anyway, on another conversation with Jerry - he glossed over the amount of 'cut and shut' he had to perform to produce a MR 9'6" underframe from the underframe parts the 2mm Association produce. Plans are in progress for the MR 9'6" wagons in 4mm so the bodies can easily be reproduced in 2mm at that point. Given I am designing an etched 9'6" underframe for the 4mm bodies, I could produce a 2mm one (either complete or - more likely - just the solebar overlay for an existing Association 9'6" underframe for those familiar with how those work) and that is probably the most sensible approach if the bodies are to be useful for the 'mass market' (or as mass as 2mm gets!). 

 

As far as the current 4mm MR wagons go, whilst these use the Brassmasters RCH 1907 subframe, the kit includes an additional etch to convert this to MR pattern (brake levers, external brake hanger) but which also includes other MR parts to make it more generally useful (internal brake hanger, brake lever guard, makers plates, coupling plate etc.). This detailing etch (or more likely a V2 revision) is the first step towards the 9'6" underframe and can also be sold on its own. This approach, of including a supplemental etch with the body, seems to make sense for the 2mm bodies too where the etch would be the solebar / solebar overlay. 

 

The expectation is that there will be some MR 9'6" wagons at Scaleforum, although how many designs will depend on how much the competing priority of getting a layout (Iain Rice's Butley Mills) fully ready for exhibition at Scaleforum intervenes over the summer!

[Compound2632]

Here goes then: @Andy Vincent's Meon Valley Models Midland wagons, from ExpoEM. I'm afraid my photography doesn't quite do justice to the sharpness of these prints:

 

8 ton goods and coal wagon, Drg. 550 (D299) post c. 1891-94 build: 

 

 

Ditto, pre c. 1891-94 build, with straps on the centre-line of the ends, never before seen on a commercial model:

 

 

ditto, Lot 919 of 1917, with additional side-straps in lieu of the tie-bars through the planks:

 

 

8 ton goods and coal wagon with end door, Drg. 790 (D351), without vertical strap at fixed end:

 

 

ditto, with end-strap:

 

 

All these come with separate floor, both fully printed buffers or buffer guide only for use with metal buffers, printed Ellis 10A axlebox / spring units, and the brake V-hanger / lever etch mentioned above. The 10A axleboxes are appropriate for all these except the Lot 919 version of D299, which had oil axleboxes. Alternatives for D299 would be 8A axleboxes, suitable for wagons built up to c. mid-1889 (i.e. with end strap, though by the 20th century some had lost the end-straps) or No. 2 oil axleboxes, for the last few built in 1902. All D351 wagons had 10A axleboxes, to the best of my knowledge.

 

As Andy says, these are designed to use the Brassmasters 1907 RCH underframe etch - which I have - but I'm thinking of cheapskate alternatives...

 

Finally, a sample of the 12 ton loco coal wagon, D204:

 

 

The D351 is especially welcome, filling a gap in my Midland wagon fleet. In the 1890s, they were built alongside D299 wagons in a ratio of around one end-door wagon to every four fixed-end wagon. Slaters never did this type in 4 mm, despite it being in their 7 mm range - I wonder if the end door catches were a bit too difficult to mould at the smaller size. I do have the 51L whitemetal kit somewhere...

Edited May 16 by Compound2632

[Andy Vincent]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm afraid my photography doesn't quite do justice to the sharpness of these prints

I do need to find a way such that these photograph better. My attempts have been confounded both by the autofocus struggling to find a high contrast edge - and by the relatively dark colour of the resin I use. At least this isn't a new problem as wagons pictured in 'photographic grey' can attest. I probably need to bite the bullet and see if there is primer that is relatively appropriate - may be time to raid the kids stock of wargaming paints. Anyone for a Necrotic Flesh coloured D299?

Edited May 16 by Andy Vincent
Typos!

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

I do need to find a way such that these photograph better.

 

There is something odd about the way typical 3DP resins photograph - they often look soft, even when the photo is technically sharp (any dust, etc., is beautifully crisp!). Possibly it is because the surface is slightly translucent which fools both eye and camera.

 

I think you are right that a coat of primer would help - Necrotic Flesh sounds ideal.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Alternatives for D299 would be 8A axleboxes, suitable for wagons built up to c. mid-1889 (i.e. with end strap, though by the 20th century some had lost the end-straps)

 

Stephen - I have another D299 on the build list, which will be the Slaters 7mm kit with a few upgrades. It would be nice to do an early one with end straps - apart from the straps and 8A rather than 10A axle boxes (which I assume is what the Slaters kit has), are there any other differences I should note?

 

Also, would you be able to point me at a photo and/or drawing showing 8A axle boxes? I'm not sure I could identify them. I have Essery's Midland Wagons vol. 1, but that doesn't comment much on axle boxes.

 

Thanks -

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Stephen - I have another D299 on the build list, which will be the Slaters 7mm kit with a few upgrades. It would be nice to do an early one with end straps - apart from the straps and 8A rather than 10A axle boxes (which I assume is what the Slaters kit has), are there any other differences I should note?

 

There are also some subtle differences in the bearing springs. There are drawings of the 8A and 10A axleboxes in Midland Wagons Vol. 1 figure 23, p. 41, or if like Andy you want the full gory detail, that can be arranged.

 

For end-straps, see e.g. Midland Wagons Vol. 1 plates 49, 67, 118; for 8A axleboxes, plates 68, 95 (RH wagon), 98, 165, 167, 169, for starters.

[magmouse]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There are drawings of the 8A and 10A axleboxes in Midland Wagons Vol. 1 figure 23, p. 41,

 

When I first read this, I felt like a bad student, who asks the teacher without bothering to try doing their own research first. I thought I had looked in Midland Wagons for drawings, and not found any. So I followed your reference and discovered ... my copy of the book (bought second hand) has pages 25-40 missing! D'oh! as Homer Simpson would say. Time for some book shopping...

 

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

if like Andy you want the full gory detail, that can be arranged.

 

Always!

 

Thanks for all the references, most helpful.

 

Nick.

[65179]

5 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

That probably depends, as far as timing goes anyway, on another conversation with Jerry - he glossed over the amount of 'cut and shut' he had to perform to produce a MR 9'6" underframe from the underframe parts the 2mm Association produce. Plans are in progress for the MR 9'6" wagons in 4mm so the bodies can easily be reproduced in 2mm at that point. Given I am designing an etched 9'6" underframe for the 4mm bodies, I could produce a 2mm one (either complete or - more likely - just the solebar overlay for an existing Association 9'6" underframe for those familiar with how those work) and that is probably the most sensible approach if the bodies are to be useful for the 'mass market' (or as mass as 2mm gets!). 

 

As far as the current 4mm MR wagons go, whilst these use the Brassmasters RCH 1907 subframe, the kit includes an additional etch to convert this to MR pattern (brake levers, external brake hanger) but which also includes other MR parts to make it more generally useful (internal brake hanger, brake lever guard, makers plates, coupling plate etc.). This detailing etch (or more likely a V2 revision) is the first step towards the 9'6" underframe and can also be sold on its own. This approach, of including a supplemental etch with the body, seems to make sense for the 2mm bodies too where the etch would be the solebar / solebar overlay. 

 

The expectation is that there will be some MR 9'6" wagons at Scaleforum, although how many designs will depend on how much the competing priority of getting a layout (Iain Rice's Butley Mills) fully ready for exhibition at Scaleforum intervenes over the summer!

 

Thanks Andy. Many 2mm have grown used to cutting and shutting chassis, but conversion etched parts for the existing Association RCH 9' 6" chassis makes sense.

 

Regards,

Simon

[41516]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The D351 is especially welcome, filling a gap in my Midland wagon fleet.... I do have the 51L whitemetal kit somewhere...

 

The 51L kit doesn't sit well alongside Slaters wagons, to my mind at least.  It's a little shorter in height and I had to add a chunky capping strip to get it looking somewhat even alongside D299s.

 

 

On the plus side, recent Methfix transfers from HMRS did manage to bed down over the chunky strapping and boltheads with a little patience.

 

On the right is the harlequin, made from two or three broken kits from ebay job lots. I really lost the mojo on the ebay rebuilds before Christmas after the 5th D299's worth of internal detailing.  Must get back to them.

Edited May 16 by 41516

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

There are drawings of the 8A and 10A axleboxes in Midland Wagons Vol. 1 figure 23, p. 41

 

And now I know what they look like, I realise Slaters include them as an option in their compensated MR axle guard set, along with 10A and oil types. I have a set, so no need to make them.

 

Nick.

[Andy Vincent]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

There is something odd about the way typical 3DP resins photograph - they often look soft, even when the photo is technically sharp (any dust, etc., is beautifully crisp!). Possibly it is because the surface is slightly translucent which fools both eye and camera.

 

I think you are right that a coat of primer would help - Necrotic Flesh sounds ideal.

Whilst on a slightly tedious work Zoom call and realising that there was a (rough print) wagon in reach, I did the experiment of putting paper inside. It seems to suggest that you have hit upon the solution!

 

 

 

On Necrotic Flesh, I realised afterwards that it has a distinct greenish tinge - but I think I got away with it ;-)