More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Miss Prism]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls949a.htm

[Penlan]

Would this be a D299 ?
 

Edit >>> Well the link keeps taking me to a spotify page ?????

But on Ebay there's a 

 

'SLATERS MR 8ton OPEN WAGON FINESCALE 18.83mm 1:76 scale kit'

 

with 6 days to go.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Penlan

[Siberian Snooper]

You're taking me too seriously... Anyway, with only one basket, you wouldn't capture the look of concentration.

The two chaps with baskets on their heads don't appear to be concentrating any greater than the others in the picture.

[Northroader]

This is at the other end for baskets, strawberry traffic from Botley LSWR.

[Compound2632]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrls949a.htm

 

Crate-tastic. Reading the caption, these are empty crates being returned for dispatch to the original consignee - lightweight, they'll be piled into an open wagon to the limit of the loading gauge, roped and, I would assume, sheeted. (Broadminded of you to pick a Midland rather than a Great Western goods station!)

 

This is at the other end for baskets, strawberry traffic from Botley LSWR.

6D68307D-7927-4CEB-A993-F742F48217A9.jpeg

 

Well now, that's interesting. The first three vehicles are Midland: two D419 25ft fruit and milk vans, 61 built 1900-4, plus 12 built for the S&DJR in 1902*; flanking a D417 20ft fruit and milk van, 25 built 1901. Both types were rated to carry 5 tons, demonstrating once again that it's not size that matters, but bearing surface area. Do you have a date for the photo? On the D419 vans, the area of roof between the rainstrip and gutter, which was painted black and varnished, looks shiny whereas it's dull on the D417. This suggests to me the photo is soon after 1904, with the D419s being from the 1904 batch numbered 243-272* and only in traffic for a few months, and the D417 showing the grime of four or five years in traffic. Further along there are some passenger carriages - possibly LNWR? I think there's been discussion on here (somewhere) of old LNWR carriages being stripped of their internal fittings and pressed into fruit traffic.

 

*Not the one nearest the camera: definitely MIDLAND in the waist panel. Is the number 254?

 

Sandy, yes, that's a Slater's D299. I've remarked before on the strange economics of buying these on ebay, given that the basic kit can be had from POWSides for £6.50. In this case, anything over that is the price you're paying for the Pressfix transfers (desirable) and in this case the Maygib P4 wheelset. It'll be interesting to see what it goes for!

Edited October 26, 2018 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

Sandy, yes, that's a Slater's D299. I've remarked before on the strange economics of buying these on ebay, given that the basic kit can be had from POWSides for £6.50. In this case, anything over that is the price you're paying for the Pressfix transfers (desirable) and in this case the Maygib P4 wheelset. It'll be interesting to see what it goes for!

Stephen,

 

that's just the madness of Ebay. The former D&S LNWR 10T Brake Van sells, on average for 48% or £7.30 more than you can buy a new one (with an improved etched underframe) from London Road Models (I've tracked that since LRM adopted the kit from Danny).

 

On average LRM  kits, including the old George Norton, Riceworks or other version, go for 91% of a new (and again often updated) one. As one ebay seller said when I informed him his BIN price was significantly higher than a new kit, he replied "Thanks, but I'll just rely on the stupidity of the buyers".

 

Jol

[sharris]

I don't think we've seen this one on the thread before? (right click image and open in new tab to see large version):

 

https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/driver-is-perched-high-up-above-his-horses-on-a-cart-piled-news-photo/3139898

 

Part of the MR's 'How not to load a wagon' series? 

[Compound2632]

Part of the MR's 'How not to load a wagon' series? 

 

Not a Derby negative. On the other hand, gently rocking that cart might be a quick way of loading about half those crates into the high-sided open. (LSWR, SR D1316 like the ones further along?) Some fun chasing the rest as they roll away...

[Guy Rixon]

My suggestion (!) is that you source a dozen or so 1:1 baskets and practice standing with them on your head. Then Modelu could give you a one-shot solution.

 

I am too tall, too male, and insufficiently Irish to be a typical market-porter of the Edwardian period. But yes, we can probably find a suitable model.

 

Problem is, I really need to represent a group of porters, so a number of visibly-distinct figures are needed. Could be pricey if done with custom scans and prints.

[Lecorbusier]

Here's an odd and perhaps stupid question ... was the D299 solely a Midland wagon, or was it also built as a PO wagon?

[Compound2632]

Here's an odd and perhaps stupid question ... was the D299 solely a Midland wagon, or was it also built as a PO wagon?

 

Now that's a rather interesting question. My curiosity on this point was piqued by the history of the RCH specifications given in A.J. Watts, Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. (HMRS, 1998). From this we learn that the Chairman of the Wagon Superintendents Committee of the Railway Clearing House at the time the 1887 specifications - the first such - were being drawn up was none other than Thomas Gething Clayton, Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the Midland Railway. This in itself isn't very surprising - the Midland had one of the largest volumes of goods and mineral traffic of any line in the country, perhaps exceeded by the LNWR for goods traffic but certainly not for minerals; the Midland was at the forefront of the railway companies' campaign to eliminate sub-standard private owner wagons, with its policy of buying them up and, in effect, replacing them with standard wagons of its own design - the D229 8 ton 5-plank wagon. 

 

Now, the Ince book includes a reproduction of the 1887 specification drawing for an 8 ton 5-plank wagon. This has 9ft wheelbase and internal dimensions of 14'6" x 7'0" x 3'0"- giving 14;11" over headstocks and 7'5" external width. This is similar to D299, although the latter were only 2'10 3/4" deep. Other significant visual differences in the specification drawing include: side door only 4 planks high, with a through top plank; external diagonal ironwork ("strapping"); long brake lever. 

 

There's an end-door version which also has features in common with D351. 

 

This first round of RCH specifications were less prescriptive of detail than later specifications, in particular the 1923 specification; builders had considerable lee-way in details. From the railway companies' point of view the key element was the requirement for inspection by and registration with a railway company.

 

So a D299 could form the basis for conversion to an RCH 1887 8-ton wagon though one might find that the Slater's Gloucester 5-plank wagon might be a better choice as being, I think, deeper. Both have atypical features such as the short brake-lever on the Midland wagon and the un-bent V of the brake V-hanger on the Gloucester wagon - scope for mix and match. Neither have the external diagonal ironwork.

 

Very much with previous discussions with you in mind, Tim, my next little project will survey three generations of the Midland's standard 3-plank dropside wagon.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Compound2632

[Lecorbusier]

I am currently reading the Ince volume ... I am trying to get my head around the make up of a few 1902 goods and mineral trains to run through Monsal Dale. I hazard a number of these will be dominated by PO Wagons. I have the 1902 and 1904 time tables We have mineral empties to Staveley, Mineral Empties to Mansfield, Mineral Empties to Dunston & Barlow, Mineral Empties to Derby, Mineral empties to Blackwell ... plus of course the same out. We also have the lime/limestone traffic (Buxton Lime Firms etc) The aim is to track down a selection of appropriate liveries and hazard a guess at the wagon design.

 

Then we have the goods trains (of which there were many according to the time tables) which I will use the period photos I tracked down on the viaduct as a start.

 

All good fun.

 

I am having a go at scratch building a D305 based upon the Midland Study Centre drawing ... will post if it proves reasonably successful.

 

 

[Lecorbusier]

On The PO wagon Builder front I have Ince and Gloucester covered ... Can anyone suggest any good sources of research for Roberts.

 

Also ... Bill Hudson in his book on the Peak line mentions Butterley in relation to the wagons in the siding of Monsal Dale in the 1911 official photo ... Would Butterley have been building their own wagons at this point or ordering them in?

[Nick Holliday]

The series of Hudson PO books from Oxford Publishing rely heavily on Charles Roberts products, not exclusively, as per the Innce and Montague books, though.

[Lecorbusier]

The series of Hudson PO books from Oxford Publishing rely heavily on Charles Roberts products, not exclusively, as per the Innce and Montague books, though.

As usual I managed to miss out a vital piece of information ... I am modelling circa 1902. Pretty much all of Bills examples are 1923 RCH from flicking through. Was kind of hoping there might be a history of Roberts sequestered in a volume somewhere.

[John_Miles]

On The PO wagon Builder front I have Ince and Gloucester covered ... Can anyone suggest any good sources of research for Roberts.

 

Also ... Bill Hudson in his book on the Peak line mentions Butterley in relation to the wagons in the siding of Monsal Dale in the 1911 official photo ... Would Butterley have been building their own wagons at this point or ordering them in?

 

There were lots of wagon builders in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire such as Eastwoods, G.R. Turner and Clayes. I presume you have looked at the series of books by Turton on PO wagons which are published by LIghtmoor/ Black Dwarf. If you but wagons from POWSides, all of their transfers seem to be for Slaters Gloucester and Roberts wagons so I suspect that for any other manufacturer you would be looking at scratch building. Powsides have a really good selection of wagons which will suit your needs such as Grassmore, Sheepbridge, Bolsover, J&G Wells, Butterley as well as Staveley.

[Compound2632]

I really must get on to building more private owner wagons but for the moment I've got a backlog of part-built Midland. At least some have reached the paintshop stage!

[Lecorbusier]

Thanks for the response John ... much appreciated.

There were lots of wagon builders in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire such as Eastwoods, G.R. Turner and Clayes .... wow, yet again it just goes to show how much more there is to learn.

 

I presume you have looked at the series of books by Turton on PO wagons which are published by LIghtmoor/ Black Dwarf. .... now that is a loaded question - there were 14 last time I looked, I think the plan will have to be to see if I can order then in at my local library - as I assume what I am researching may well be spread across multiple volumes?. 

 

If you buy wagons from POWSides, all of their transfers seem to be for Slaters Gloucester and Roberts wagons so I suspect that for any other manufacturer you would be looking at scratch building. I am enjoying having a go at scratch building so no problem

 

Powsides have a really good selection of wagons which will suit your needs such as Grassmore, Sheepbridge, Bolsover, J&G Wells, Butterley as well as Staveley. It is really the process of amassing the knowledge to reel of such names that I am seeking.

[Nick Holliday]

As usual I managed to miss out a vital piece of information ... I am modelling circa 1902. Pretty much all of Bills examples are 1923 RCH from flicking through. Was kind of hoping there might be a history of Roberts sequestered in a volume somewhere.

I think you are being a bit hard on Mr Hudson, particularly as those writing about PO wagons are hampered by the relatively limited photos and other resources available.  It's a bit like an iceberg, although much has been written recently on the subject, it represents a small fraction of what has been lost. However, whilst it might be true that the third volume of his books is rather overwhelmed with 1923 RCH examples, the other three books in the OPC series have quite a large proportion of pre-grouping wagons, although not all are from Charles Roberts, and few are actually from your 1902 date.

 

Thanks for the response John ... much appreciated.

 

.

There were lots of wagon builders in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire such as Eastwoods, G.R. Turner and Clayes .... wow, yet again it just goes to show how much more there is to learn.

 

I presume you have looked at the series of books by Turton on PO wagons which are published by LIghtmoor/ Black Dwarf. .... now that is a loaded question - there were 14 last time I looked, I think the plan will have to be to see if I can order then in at my local library - as I assume what I am researching may well be spread across multiple volumes?. 

 

If you buy wagons from POWSides, all of their transfers seem to be for Slaters Gloucester and Roberts wagons so I suspect that for any other manufacturer you would be looking at scratch building. I am enjoying having a go at scratch building so no problem

 

Powsides have a really good selection of wagons which will suit your needs such as Grassmore, Sheepbridge, Bolsover, J&G Wells, Butterley as well as Staveley. It is really the process of amassing the knowledge to reel of such names that I am seeking.

Sambrook, in another LIghtmoor Press book, has identified, and provided brief histories of, more than 350 British wagon manufacturers!

Regarding the Turton series, et al, perhaps a good place to start would be the index on the Lightmoor website.  Trawling through that to identify companies and locations that ring a bell from your research would narrow down the hunt a bit. If you were to PM me a list of the various references you find, I could go through my library and let you know which were worth following up.  There is nothing worse that spending time, and money, tracking down something, only to find that it has no value after all. As you live in London, it might even be possible to arrange a meet, to save facing the library system!

 

Regarding kits for other makers, Parkside, back in the eighties, produced a couple of Hurst Nelson opens, as does Cambrian, who also have Wheeler & Gregory types, whilst dumb-buffered ones, which would have had a strong presnece in 1902, can be obtained from Roxey Mouldings and 5&9 Models, representing products from various makers.

 

Sometimes you need to go a little further for inspiration. For example, in Ian Pope's volume on the Forest of Dean wagons, a detailed listing of Crawshay's sales shows orders to Thomas W Ward of Sheffield and a trial order for loco coal to the South Eastern and Chatham, not to mention the way anthracite was normally delivered in the colliery's own wagons. As I said above, what we know about PO wagons is the tip of the iceberg, and, to a certain extent, almost any colliery or large coal factor's wagon could turn up, if there was a demand for the product.

[Lecorbusier]

I think you are being a bit hard on Mr Hudson, particularly as those writing about PO wagons are hampered by the relatively limited photos and other resources available.  It's a bit like an iceberg, although much has been written recently on the subject, it represents a small fraction of what has been lost. However, whilst it might be true that the third volume of his books is rather overwhelmed with 1923 RCH examples, the other three books in the OPC series have quite a large proportion of pre-grouping wagons, although not all are from Charles Roberts, and few are actually from your 1902 date.

 

 

.

Sambrook, in another LIghtmoor Press book, has identified, and provided brief histories of, more than 350 British wagon manufacturers!

Regarding the Turton series, et al, perhaps a good place to start would be the index on the Lightmoor website.  Trawling through that to identify companies and locations that ring a bell from your research would narrow down the hunt a bit. If you were to PM me a list of the various references you find, I could go through my library and let you know which were worth following up.  There is nothing worse that spending time, and money, tracking down something, only to find that it has no value after all. As you live in London, it might even be possible to arrange a meet, to save facing the library system!

 

Regarding kits for other makers, Parkside, back in the eighties, produced a couple of Hurst Nelson opens, as does Cambrian, who also have Wheeler & Gregory types, whilst dumb-buffered ones, which would have had a strong presnece in 1902, can be obtained from Roxey Mouldings and 5&9 Models, representing products from various makers.

 

Sometimes you need to go a little further for inspiration. For example, in Ian Pope's volume on the Forest of Dean wagons, a detailed listing of Crawshay's sales shows orders to Thomas W Ward of Sheffield and a trial order for loco coal to the South Eastern and Chatham, not to mention the way anthracite was normally delivered in the colliery's own wagons. As I said above, what we know about PO wagons is the tip of the iceberg, and, to a certain extent, almost any colliery or large coal factor's wagon could turn up, if there was a demand for the product.

Thankyou very much for this input Nick ... really appreciated.

 

.... and thanks for the offer to PM you which I will take up.

 

As you have probably deduced I am still floundering somewhat and am keen not to Hijack this thread which is a goldmine of information.

 

Please don't read too much into comments on Bill Hudson which grow out of ignorance as much as anything ... Everytime I come back to his writings I peel another layer of the onion which is both humbling and gratifying in equal measure ... an observation which applies to a great deal of my reading and research to date - always the problem with starting from a low base!

 

I have got myself a readers card at the British library, so should be able to order up most things for a pleasurable day off reading.

 

Tim

[Compound2632]

whilst dumb-buffered ones, which would have had a strong presnece in 1902,

 

It's my impression, from the photographs I've seen, that dumb-buffered wagons were rare on the Midland by this date, compared to elsewhere - for example, there are photos of Vastern Road yard, Reading, from the early years of the century with dumb-buffered wagons a-plenty. I suspect that the Midland's 1880s policy of buying up PO wagons may be the reason for this: although there were by 1902 plenty of PO wagons on the Midland system, they were replacements of the bought-up wagons and to the 1887 RCH specification. I'm not sure but I suspect the 1887 spec put an end to the construction of new dumb-buffered PO wagons. I'd be glad if anyone could substantiate this surmise!

 

As you have probably deduced I am still floundering somewhat and am keen not to Hijack this thread which is a goldmine of information.

 

That other people find it useful is very gratifying. I'm feeling that I've tapped a goldmine in the generosity with which people who have done much more research than me have shared their knowledge. Tim, there's not a post you've made that hasn't got me thinking more carefully, especially about Midland wagons.

[Penlan]

If you can't make up your mind re. dumb or sprung buffers,
there's always a third alternative, perhaps sitting on a fence... 

 

Oliver H. Thomas, Neath, wagons, though at Aber Colliery, Ogmore Vale.
Long way from Neath.

Looking at the fine material - is it really coal - I wonder what that's for, Briquettes?

There's some decent stuff in the wagons behind.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Am I right in thinking that it was the usual arrangement to have the dumb buffers at the fixed end and sprung at the door end and this was to do with the wagon tipping arrangements at the S Wales docks?

[Guy Rixon]

Am I right in thinking that it was the usual arrangement to have the dumb buffers at the fixed end and sprung at the door end and this was to do with the wagon tipping arrangements at the S Wales docks?

 

That is indeed what I read, and I don't think that the arrangement was used outside south Wales.

 

Concerning the fine coal noticed by Penlan, I believe that some kinds of power-station furnace work best with fines. I don't know when that kind of furnace came into use. 

[airnimal]

Regarding the topic of dumb buffers being at the fixed end, this was the opposite of some Duke of Bridgewater wagons in a photography in Oldham Library. There are a number of wagons in this large panoramic view all with the same arrangements. Anybody who is into early wagons will find so much to study in this wonderful large view of Oldham Clegg Street goods yard. Oldham Library has blown the nine photographs up of this yard and placed them together and printed them on one wall in the library.