More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Lecorbusier]

The angle you've taken the photograph from emphasises a defect of the kit (apart from the bare interior) - the too-rounded tops of the end pillars. These should be square, per the extract from the drawing posted above. Mousa's 3-plankers are better in that respect, as is the Slater's D299. It's to draw the eye away from such defects that I put the doorstops on!

John Hayes in his 'The Coal Wagon in 4mm' demonstrates removing the end pillars and replacing with styrene strip items. He also demonstrates applying boarding to the interiors and strip detail for the strapwork ....including bottom doors - should that be of any interest - great book in my opinion.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Rail-Online]

The angle you've taken the photograph from emphasises a defect of the kit (apart from the bare interior) - the too-rounded tops of the end pillars. These should be square, per the extract from the drawing posted above. Mousa's 3-plankers are better in that respect, as is the Slater's D299. It's to draw the eye away from such defects that I put the doorstops on!

The other improvement I make now is to attend to the Ellis axleboxes so the side extensions are just 'ears' and do not extend all the way down the side of the axleboxes.  The MJT cast versions are better but it is a simple job with a sharp knife and file to greatly improve the Slaters ones. 

 

The colour looks fine to mey eyes!

 

Tony

Edited November 8, 2018 by Rail-Online

[Compound2632]

The other improvement I make now is to attend to the Ellis axleboxes so the side extensions are just 'ears' and do not extend all the way down the side of the axleboxes.  The MJT cast versions are better but it is a simple job with a sharp knife and file to greatly improve the Slaters ones. 

 

The colour looks fine to mey eyes!

 

Tony

 

Indeed, if you look back up this thread you'll see that that's what I've been doing as standard. I've made use of the MJT axleboxes when replacing Slater's oil axleboxes on the D362 covered goods wagon and on brake vans. That cattle wagon underframe will be getting them too.

John Hayes in his 'The Coal Wagon in 4mm' demonstrates removing the end pillars and replacing with styrene strip items. He also demonstrates applying boarding to the interiors and strip detail for the strapwork ....including bottom doors - should that be of any interest - great book in my opinion.

 

There's a point at which it may be easier to start from scratch!

[Lecorbusier]

 

There's a point at which it may be easier to start from scratch!

I still think you save a fair amount of work doing the upgrade over scratch building.

 

John carries out his alterations during the build ... so before gluing together he uses a scrawker to scribe in the boarding to the interior. As part of this process he cuts off the end pillars replacing with micro-strip of a suitable thickness sanded to give the chamfer.  Likewise if bottom doors are required because the wagon is to run in a rake of empties he uses a fresh piece of ready scribed 1mm sheet and cuts in the doors. Thin strips of styrene are then bonded in the correct positions to simulate the internal strapping.

 

If some bolts need adding (not necessary on Midland as the heads were countersunk on the interior strapping according to the drawings) a ruse I have discovered is to remove and use the end of a 0.3 propelling pencil as a punch. A light tap using a pin hammer nicely punches through  .05 styrene sheet laid on a cutting mat producing to my eye very reasonable bolt heads.

[billbedford]

John carries out his alterations during the build ... so before gluing together he uses a scrawker to scribe in the boarding to the interior. 

 

 

But planks were flush on the inside, ie they only had a chamfer of the outside.

[Compound2632]

But planks were flush on the inside, ie they only had a chamfer of the outside.

 

... and checking your 3D prints for the three-plank wagons, there's enough of a grove to indicate the join without over-emphasising it, along with the interior ironwork of course. 

[Brassey]

Nothing a tarpaulin cant sort..

 

 

Andy

 

Midland Tarps ordered this morning

 

The other improvement I make now is to attend to the Ellis axleboxes so the side extensions are just 'ears' and do not extend all the way down the side of the axleboxes.  The MJT cast versions are better but it is a simple job with a sharp knife and file to greatly improve the Slaters ones. 

 

The colour looks fine to mey eyes!

 

Tony

 

 

As an avid GWR/LNWR enthusiast, I don't have much reference of things Midland.  A pic of an Ellis box would help though there might be one earlier on this thread.

 

I'm only tolerating a few "foreign" wagons on my layout but the Midland was a close neighbour with a link at Hereford.  No carriage stock mind but a few D299's to build plus others

Edited November 8, 2018 by Brassey

[Lecorbusier]

But planks were flush on the inside, ie they only had a chamfer of the outside.

 

True ... but wood moves and tends to shrink so the lines are clearly visible. A light pass with the scrawker is sufficient, but without the interior looks wrong to my eye.

[Compound2632]

Midland Tarps ordered this morning

 

 

 

As an avid GWR/LNWR enthusiast, I don't have much reference of things Midland.  A pic of an Ellis box would help though there might be one earlier on this thread.

 

I'm only tolerating a few "foreign" wagons on my layout but the Midland was a close neighbour with a link at Hereford.  No carriage stock mind but a few D299's to build plus others

 

Where are you getting your Midland wagon sheets? The most authentic ones I know are from www.wagonsheets.co.uk.

 

Here's a drawing of an Ellis 10A axlebox:

 

 

Extract from Drg. 1032 in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre, made available on their website.

 

I did post this before, when discussing the modification to the Slater's axleboxes.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Compound2632

[Buhar]

Given that D299s were designated Goods and Mineral was there any distiction once in traffic?  I imagine once they've had a few loads of coal they'd be unwelcome for general merchandise use.  Packing crates or barrels or whatever would been made filthy and consignees would probably not be too pleased, especially if going to a shop or other clean premses.

[Compound2632]

Given that D299s were designated Goods and Mineral was there any distiction once in traffic?  I imagine once they've had a few loads of coal they'd be unwelcome for general merchandise use.  Packing crates or barrels or whatever would been made filthy and consignees would probably not be too pleased, especially if going to a shop or other clean premses.

 

J. Miles et al., The Swansea Vale Railway (Lightmoor Press, 2017), pp 140-141: Photo at Gurnos, c. 1906, taken from the top of the water tower. Centre, a line of wagons  that have, presumably, delivered loco coal - one furthest from the camera is still loaded, the nearer three are empty. These are all D299 with the exception of one of the empties, which is D351 - same as D299 but with an end door, and designated Coal Wagon in the lot list, if not in the diagram book. The empties look to me to have been swept thoroughly clean - these were the days of cheap labour. On the other hand, op. cit. p. 218, also at Gurnos and almost certainly on the same occasion, in the line of wagons in the sidings alongside the Yniscedwyn branch, there is what appears to be a D351 end-door wagon sheeted over, i.e. in merchandise traffic. So I think that's evidence that with the aid of a good broom, a wagon that has carried coal can be made fit for goods traffic. It might not be easy on a very wet day, though. The grade of coal might make a difference, too - a hard coal such as anthracite might not leave much dust. Anyway, they were familiar with soot back then.

 

Term time - the long slog through November - so slow modelling progress, I'm afraid. But I'm getting out to the Warley show next weekend and will be on the Midland Railway Society stand on the Sunday.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

When I was a child the local coalman was a family friend. He always had one of his blokes sweep out the wagons on delivery at Heald Green. It was coal he had paid for and he could sell it on as slack. The inside of the wagons when he left them didn’t have the a grain of coal in them. Stained yes but no coal.

[Buhar]

Thanks Stephen and Sandy, That seems to have put that issue to bed.  I'll find something else to puzzle over now.

[Spitfire2865]

I do wonder with that previous question answered, how much of a pain would it be to clean up if someone were to open the drop doors of a D299 with a load of small general goods, such as baskets or the like.  At least on one side you could get under the wagon "easily" to pick up whatever fell out.  

[John_Miles]

J. Miles et al., The Swansea Vale Railway (Lightmoor Press, 2017), pp 140-141: Photo at Gurnos, c. 1906, taken from the top of the water tower. Centre, a line of wagons  that have, presumably, delivered loco coal - one furthest from the camera is still loaded, the nearer three are empty. These are all D299 with the exception of one of the empties, which is D351 - same as D299 but with an end door, and designated Coal Wagon in the lot list, if not in the diagram book. The empties look to me to have been swept thoroughly clean - these were the days of cheap labour. On the other hand, op. cit. p. 218, also at Gurnos and almost certainly on the same occasion, in the line of wagons in the sidings alongside the Yniscedwyn branch, there is what appears to be a D351 end-door wagon sheeted over, i.e. in merchandise traffic. So I think that's evidence that with the aid of a good broom, a wagon that has carried coal can be made fit for goods traffic. It might not be easy on a very wet day, though. The grade of coal might make a difference, too - a hard coal such as anthracite might not leave much dust. Anyway, they were familiar with soot back then.

 

Term time - the long slog through November - so slow modelling progress, I'm afraid. But I'm getting out to the Warley show next weekend and will be on the Midland Railway Society stand on the Sunday.

 

Anthracite would not be used for loco coal so the wagons that had contained loco coal would have had the soft, bituminous Welsh steam coal, reputedly the best steam coal in the world. The only locos I know of that did burn anthracite were in Pennsylvania. They were odd looking things with the driver in a cab perched up above the middle of the boiler and the poor fireman on a rather spartan platform at the rear. The firebox was huge and  the full width of the loco. I think they were only to be found on the Reading and Lehigh Valley; if I'm wrong I will soon be corrected!

 

The loco coal for the Swansea Valley locos appears to have come from around Port Talbot and the Avon Valley which runs east from Port Talbot. This is logical as it is the closest source of steam coal so it would be cheap. The Midland may have let Johnson and Clayton spend on making their trains look magnificent but when it came to most other things, they always accepted the cheapest bid. My views about the source of loco coal are supported by the photos quoted above which show a wagon from the Port Talbot area and lots of photographic evidence for Glyncorrwg wagons at places such as Ynisygeinon.

[Spitfire2865]

Anthracite would not be used for loco coal so the wagons that had contained loco coal would have had the soft, bituminous Welsh steam coal, reputedly the best steam coal in the world. The only locos I know of that did burn anthracite were in Pennsylvania. They were odd looking things with the driver in a cab perched up above the middle of the boiler and the poor fireman on a rather spartan platform at the rear. The firebox was huge and  the full width of the loco. I think they were only to be found on the Reading and Lehigh Valley; if I'm wrong I will soon be corrected!

Only took a few minutes.

What youre referring to is called a "Camelback" on account of the hump caused by the cab.

Quite popular actually around these parts.  Many railroads used them for quite a range of services, freights and local passenger services.  But of course they werent as popular as conventional locomotives.  Although I could see it working rather well with an auto-stoker, but I dont know if it was ever tried.  

[billbedford]

The only locos I know of that did burn anthracite were in Pennsylvania. They were odd looking things with the driver in a cab perched up above the middle of the boiler and the poor fireman on a rather spartan platform at the rear. The firebox was huge and  the full width of the loco. I think they were only to be found on the Reading and Lehigh Valley; if I'm wrong I will soon be corrected!

 

 

The R&LVR was not the only anthracite road and camelbacks were not the only anthracite locos. Much more detail on the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society site

[Compound2632]

Anthracite would not be used for loco coal so the wagons that had contained loco coal would have had the soft, bituminous Welsh steam coal, reputedly the best steam coal in the world. 

 

I realised I'd blundered there - although Gurnos is in anthracite territory (I think), of course  locomotive coal would come from elsewhere.

 

Now did the pits buy in steam coal?

[John_Miles]

I realised I'd blundered there - although Gurnos is in anthracite territory (I think), of course  locomotive coal would come from elsewhere.

 

Now did the pits buy in steam coal?

 

Now that is a really interesting question. I don't know the answer but there are plenty of examples of wagons from steam coal collieries in the anthracite area. They may have been passing through but.... Also house coal, you can burn anthracite but it needs a special grate.

 

I have made enquiries. Possibly more later.

Edited November 22, 2018 by John_Miles

[PenrithBeacon]

IIRC many American RR owned anthracite and lignite mines in order to supply loco fuel to their engines

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthracite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite

Edited November 22, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

We've had some debate about LNWR wagon sheets - saltire or right cross, red or white, etc. I've come across a published photo which seems to confirm the right cross at least c. 1912. I was looking through Richard Foster, Birmingham New Street: the story of a great station, Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1990) which I haven't looked at for a long while. In addition to covering the history of Birmingham's LNWR and Midland passenger stations, this also covers the development of Curzon Street as a goods station. On p. 94, there is a photo of the sidings at Curzon Street, said to be taken in the summer of 1912. It's not the best photo - the atmosphere is hazy (to put it politely). [Also on Warwickshire Railways] The sidings are well-populated with LNWR wagons, some of which bear the large LNWR lettering - one, I think, without diamonds - but many are diamonds only. There's also a good number of Midland wagons - D299s with mineral load and empty, D305 empty, a D362/363 covered goods wagon...

 

There are three wagons with LNWR wagon sheets near the front which are my witnesses for today:

 

Exhibit A: near the centre of the photo, a 4-plank wagon - probably D4 or D9 - with a high, square load such that the sheet barely covers the top plank. This is lettered L & N W along each side, in serif letters about 12" high. Where the sheet hangs down over the wagon end, one can see that the baseline of the letters on either side are spaced by about the width of the wagon, so 7'6". The L is inset about 2' from the end of the sheet, the W on the opposite side, only about 1'. There's a hint of a marking on the side, which could be the number as displayed on exhibit C. On the section of sheet hanging down at the end, there is also clearly visible a stripe that runs along the centre-line of the sheet, about the same width as the wagon end pillars - so around 4 1/2". This is darker than the lettering. 

 

Exhibit B: on the road behind exhibit A, another 4-plank wagon, with a slightly humped load. The sheet looks to have the same lettering. On the hump, there is a very clear cross - lines of the same width as exhibit B, running along the length and across the with of the sheet. The best way I can describe these is that they look shinier - more reflective - than the body of the sheet. Think hot cross bun.

 

Exhibit C: at the left of the photo, standing on a wagon turntable, a non-LNWR open wagon with cupboard doors - the lettering very worn but I think G&SW- but with a very new-looking LNWR sheet, worn over another high load so it hangs down only over the top plank. The lettering style is as exhibit A and between the L & N W lettering and the sheet edge, there is the number 381 right way up in numerals about 9" - 10" high then underneath, upside-down and about 6" - 7". All this lettering stands out very clearly in a fresh light shade, presumably white. Between the    & and N, there is a line running across the sheet; it seems to stop about 6" above the baseline of the L & N W lettering - i.e. it doesn't run through the number - and be a few inches wide. Again this line looks lighter than the sheet colour but it clearly isn't white. 

 

So, I think this is conclusive evidence for sheets with a right cross rather than a saltire , in red, about 4 1/2" wide, on sheets c. 1912. Nevertheless, I'm still happy that I have good evidence for a broader saltire cross on sheets c. 1890s. The only fly in the ointment is a second photo at Curzon Street c. 1912 (probably taken the same day; both photos are credited PRO), p88, [Warwickshire Railways] the subject is a D4 about to be turned on a wagon turntable. Again a high load with the sheet hanging down straight at the sides, just overlapping the top plank. The only visible markings on the sheet are the stencilled serif letters L & N (W hidden by a fold), about 6" high, running diagonally from the sheet edge towards the right-hand end.   

 

[EDIT: links to these photos on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways site added.]

Edited November 25, 2018 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

Many thanks Compound2632.
I've sent my notes on Wagon Sheets to Mike Musson of the L&NW Society (well they were handed to him at NEC today by a friend, I'm housebound at present due to mobility problems, and with poor eyesight).
I will get him to look at your posting above as well.
Best wishes and thank you for your continued interests.

[Compound2632]

Many thanks Compound2632.

I've sent my notes on Wagon Sheets to Mike Musson of the L&NW Society (well they were handed to him at NEC today by a friend, I'm housebound at present due to mobility problems, and with poor eyesight).

I will get him to look at your posting above as well.

Best wishes and thank you for your continued interests.

 

Mike showed me the envelope with your notes - I told him I'd made a posting that might be of relevance! 

 

In this Windsor Street Goods photo dated 1903, I think we see on the wagon in the foreground a sheet in the same style as in the 1912 Curzon Street photo.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Compound2632

[John_Miles]

Now that is a really interesting question. I don't know the answer but there are plenty of examples of wagons from steam coal collieries in the anthracite area. They may have been passing through but.... Also house coal, you can burn anthracite but it needs a special grate.

 

I have made enquiries. Possibly more later.

 

I have some answers. They are not totally conclusive but as most of the collieries  in the Swansea Valley closed in the 1960s, that isn't too surprising. What people can definitely remember is house coal being brought into the area. Some people did have anthracite burning stoves but more people had traditional open fires which required house coal. People are hazy about coal delivered to collieries for steam raising but Penwyllt brickworks definitely bought steam coal for its boilers. So the tentative answer is that the collieries probably did import steam coal.

[John_Miles]

A further point, anthracite was a high priced coal and so it would pay the collieries to burn cheaper stuff in their boilers. The following are prices per ton for coal in 1931 at South Wales ports.

 

Typical steam coal 19s  6d

Anthracite  34s

 

 

Source GLM Review