More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[PenrithBeacon]

A further point, anthracite was a high priced coal and so it would pay the collieries to burn cheaper stuff in their boilers. The following are prices per ton for coal in 1931 at South Wales ports.

 

Typical steam coal 19s 6d

Anthracite 34s

 

 

Source GLM Review

That’s a surprise! I have always thought that anthracite was cheaper because it burned at a much higher temperature. Dad used to buy the stuff in the 50s because it was cheaper but Mum didn’t like it because it was more difficult to get going!

[jwealleans]

Excuse the intrusion, but I asked this question in a couple of places and didn't get a full answer. I thought I knew my way around what wagon kits were or had been available, but these have passed me by. The first has been identified by Jol Wilkinson as an LNWR D33. Almost all the others in the collection (there were about 15) were pregrouping, so I'm guessing these are too.:

 

 

Request for help this morning. I acquired a box of part completed wagons a few months ago and dug them out last night with a view to finding out what they are. I managed most of them but there are a few which still elude me. I'd be grateful if anyone else could pin them down:

 

I know I've seen these before. LNWR? By ABS?

 

 

This is part of a twin but I only have one half. The axleboxes are quite distinctive:

 

 

Again, part of a twin (I have both of these)with offset axles. These have a cast WM floor as well, not the usual plastic insert:

 

 

Finally one of two single bolsters which came as a pair.

 

[airnimal]

They could possible be identified if the buffers and axleboxes were a bit clearer in the photographs. The wagon in the bottom picture looks like L&Y with oil axleboxes. The buffers and axleboxes along with the shape of the headstock usually give it away.

Mike

[Spitfire2865]

Excuse the intrusion, but I asked this question in a couple of places and didn't get a full answer. I thought I knew my way around what wagon kits were or had been available, but these have passed me by. The first has been identified by Jol Wilkinson as an LNWR D33. Almost all the others in the collection (there were about 15) were pregrouping, so I'm guessing these are too.:

 

 

Request for help this morning. I acquired a box of part completed wagons a few months ago and dug them out last night with a view to finding out what they are. I managed most of them but there are a few which still elude me. I'd be grateful if anyone else could pin them down:

 

I know I've seen these before. LNWR? By ABS?

 

 

This is part of a twin but I only have one half. The axleboxes are quite distinctive:

 

 

Again, part of a twin (I have both of these)with offset axles. These have a cast WM floor as well, not the usual plastic insert:

 

 

Finally one of two single bolsters which came as a pair.

 

That first one looks like a David Geen kit to my eyes.

The third looks like the L&Y twin from 51L?

[jwealleans]

I thought I might get a few leads from the readers of this thread. Good shot, Trevor, that is indeed the 51L L & Y twin. I'll try to set up some better pictures of the other two this evening.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Excuse the intrusion, but I asked this question in a couple of places and didn't get a full answer. I thought I knew my way around what wagon kits were or had been available, but these have passed me by. The first has been identified by Jol Wilkinson as an LNWR D33. Almost all the others in the collection (there were about 15) were pregrouping, so I'm guessing these are too.:

 

 

Request for help this morning. I acquired a box of part completed wagons a few months ago and dug them out last night with a view to finding out what they are. I managed most of them but there are a few which still elude me. I'd be grateful if anyone else could pin them down:

 

I know I've seen these before. LNWR? By ABS?

 

 

This is part of a twin but I only have one half. The axleboxes are quite distinctive:

 

 

Again, part of a twin (I have both of these)with offset axles. These have a cast WM floor as well, not the usual plastic insert:

 

 

Finally one of two single bolsters which came as a pair.

 

Jonathan,

 

I thought I had responded before that the first vehicle is a LNWR D32  van. These were outside framed with a sliding roof door and one  side door. The D33 with two side doors was slightly larger and also listed by the LNWR Society as being produced by D&S.. The only w/m kit for these was by D&S. The David Geen kit (formerly Model Wagon Co kits) were of the later and larger D88 van.

 

Bill Bedford has also more recently produced the D32 and D33 but as resin castings with etched w-irons.

 

 

Jol

 

Edited to add photo showing completed D&S model of a D32 on London Road

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[jwealleans]

Beg pardon, Jol, that's me misremembering. I did have the one you illustrate in mind, probably from seeing Bill's kit.

[Compound2632]

Bill Bedford has also more recently produced the D32 and D33 but as resin castings with etched w-irons.

 

That the D33 is now available had past me by - thanks for posting. A surprise package hasn't turned up on my doorstep so I think that's one I hadn't put down a £1 deposit for!

 

Is the first half-twin Great Western? The steel u/f is suggestive.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

That the D33 is now available had past me by - thanks for posting. A surprise package hasn't turned up on my doorstep so I think that's one I hadn't put down a £1 deposit for!

 

 

Jenny is packing the D.33s this week, but most of the orders will have to wait until Mr Seymore sends us some buffers.

 

 

PS the GNR 8ton van is also ready

Edited November 28, 2018 by billbedford

[jwealleans]

Right, hopefully these will be of more use.

 

First the half twin. Those buffers have something of the GNR about them:

 

 

 

Then the other twin. Those buffers are LNWR or L & Y, surely?

 

 

 

Lastly, I found a set of sides and ends. 4 plank, one brake block and a long lever - is this the NBR 4 plank open which Wizard Models don't have a picture of on their website?

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by jwealleans

[airnimal]

The wagon with just one pair of wheels is L&Y with oil axleboxes. The buffers are correct for L&Y.

The second wagon I would guess is GCR looking at the buffers and axleboxes.

Mike

[Compound2632]

From the limited information I have*, I doubt the 4-plank wagon is North British - neither the three-hinged door nor the style of the bracket for the scotch brake correspond. The style of the door hinge ironwork is unusual. Is it an Irish wagon?

 

*J Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991).

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

I think the first half of a twin with the steel underframe is a D&S GCR kit.  The other two have a Model Wagon Company feel to them.  The first I think is LYR (although I cannot recall them doing any L&Y wagons - they definitely did LNWR though) and I don't think it is half of a twin, just a single.   The last one looks Caley or G&SW to me and those springs cast onto the underframe is the way Model Wagon Company often did it.

 

Cheers Tony

[Dave John]

More likely GSWR , the CR used a combined brake hanger and spring mounting. 

 

As in these pics 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2091/entry-19668-cr-diagram-24-wagon-and-some-sheep-part-2/

[jwealleans]

Model Wagon is a possibility, there was one of their Long Lows in there. Thank you to everyone who has commented so far.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi,

I think the first half of a twin with the steel underframe is a D&S GCR kit.  The other two have a Model Wagon Company feel to them.  The first I think is LYR (although I cannot recall them doing any L&Y wagons - they definitely did LNWR though) and I don't think it is half of a twin, just a single.   The last one looks Caley or G&SW to me and those springs cast onto the underframe is the way Model Wagon Company often did it.

 

Cheers Tony

Tony,

 

the single plank with one wheelset fitted does have the look of a LNWR D1 about it, except that they were usually fitted with a single brake block system;

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/open/Diag001.php

 

My LNWR Wagons books aren't to hand at the moment so I can't check in those.

 

However, as you say, there doesn't appear to have been a Model Wagon cast w/m kit of it (or under the David Geen banner). The LNWR Society list of 4mm wagon kits shows only the Ratio or Bill Bedford kits:

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmwagons.php

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

Here's a selection of components from the David Geen kit for the L&Y Diagram 1 (Drawing 3427) 1-plank open wagon. This is a kit purchased a couple of years ago at an exhibition - ExpoEM or Scaleforum, I think, shortly before his retirement was announced - Luckily I bought several kits on that occasion, though now regret not having bought more!

 

 

I think it's clear this isn't the one-axled wagon in Jonathan's post - different arrangement of solebar washer plates for the outer ends of the axleguards, plus Attock's grease axleboxes rather than oil axleboxes. However, David Geen's old website, which is still online, lists a D32A bolster wagon that does look like a good match. Not a kit I bought.

 

Looking through Vol. 1 of Coates' L&Y Wagon book, the D36 twin timber truck looks to be the prototype of the short-wheelbase wagon - the highly asymmetrical design and the two side-knees close together either side of the bolster are distinctive. Not on that Geen website listing.

 

I'm flattered that this thread has become the go-to place for pre-Grouping wagon questions!

 

[jwealleans]

I've just looked through LNWR wagons Vol.1 (the only one I have) and I'd tend to agree that that isn't a D1. Apart from the central mount for a bolster, the bolt heads on the corner plates are wrong. Edit - what i think it is (with the benefit of a big screen) is David Geen's kit M-013, L & Y D32A single bolster.

 

According to an old thread on RMWeb, the only Model Wagon Company kit which might be a candidate is an HR twin, but that's still in the 51L range and looks quite different.

 

Further edit - cross post with Stephen above. Luckily we have reached the same conclusion.

Edited November 30, 2018 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

I've just looked through LNWR wagons Vol.1 (the only one I have) and I'd tend to agree that that isn't a D1. 

 

It can be confusing that in both the LNWR and the L&YR diagram book, their respective standard 1-plank merchandise wagon was on page one - so D1! 

[Norton961]

Hope people don’t mind but another pre group wagon question. I have the HMRS LNWR wagon sheet and have just noted that the diamond shape comes in 2 sizes. The question is what are the rules regarding when to use the smaller diamond rather than the large one. I have one sheet left and have now run out of the large diamonds but have lots of the small ones left.

 

David

[Compound2632]

Hope people don’t mind but another pre group wagon question. I have the HMRS LNWR wagon sheet and have just noted that the diamond shape comes in 2 sizes. The question is what are the rules regarding when to use the smaller diamond rather than the large one. I have one sheet left and have now run out of the large diamonds but have lots of the small ones left.

 

David

 

The smaller ones seem to have been used where the larger ones were too big - the sides of timber trucks for example.

 

I ran into the same problem and got some rub-down diamonds from Coast Line Models.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Compound2632

[Norton961]

Compound, thanks for the heads up on the Coast Line Models LNWR diamonds. The HMRS sheet for LNWR wagons is currently unavailable so I need a supply of diamonds ( pre 1908 only needs the diamonds).

 

David

[Compound2632]

pre 1908 only needs the diamonds.

 

My case too. Is there anyone out there modelling late LNWR / early LMS who wants lots of LNWR lettering but no diamonds?

[billbedford]

Compound, thanks for the heads up on the Coast Line Models LNWR diamonds. The HMRS sheet for LNWR wagons is currently unavailable so I need a supply of diamonds ( pre 1908 only needs the diamonds).

 

 

 

The wagon also had painted numbers on the ends.

[Compound2632]

Just come across a nice picture featuring a D299 laden with casks at Burton, of course. It's one with Ellis 10A axleboxes and the extra vertical ironwork at the end, which I think dates it to early 1890s. I was building one with the end strapping but the Archer rivets didn't stick to the bare microstrip. I've since primed it but not yet tried the rivet transfers again. Paul Gallon got this to work, so I'm wondering what trick I've missed?