More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Never look a gift wagon in the brake gear…

 

Some of our club members, knowing my pre-grouping tendencies, have very generously been giving me old wagons that are too early for their favoured 1930s period. As they are mostly Great Western enthusiasts, these are Great Western wagons – I think they’re out to convert me!

 

 

On the back row, from left to right: two Coopercraft wagons, an O4 with sheet rail, like the one I built earlier, and an 8’0” V4; together with a pre-diagram book wooden outside-framed van of unknown provenance. (Plastic, not whitemetal.) In front of the vans, a Coopercraft pre-diagram 4-plank open with cast iron numberplates – cemented together, it fell apart nicely. In the foreground, a whitemetal kit for a 1880s 3-plank open, with straight rather than rounded ends. The instruction booklet has detailed notes which I’m trying to get my head round.

 

The 3 and 4-plank opens and the early van are all candidates for the red livery. The van has been built with one-side brakes but a brake lever on both sides. Neither lever has the Morton ratchet so perhaps it’s just as well there’s no cross-shaft! The O4 has the levers for the Dean-Churchward brake at the wrong end – moving the brakes to the other side looks like being the only option – unless someone can tell me some were built with conventional lever brakes?

 

The tall V4 presents an interesting challenge: according to Atkins, very soon after building the 178 8’0” high vans of Lot 476 were equipped with vacuum brakes for use in the Great Western’s new express freight services. I thought I’d read that this meant 3’6” wheels but I the notes I made from the copy of Atkins I borrowed don’t say so; anyway the DC1 brakes have to go. I’ll have to go back to Atkins to see if there’s information on the arrangement of the automatic brakes. Also, it'll be challenging to justify this van escaping from its express freight diagram to condescend to work through to a Midland destination...

 

New buffers needed all round!

 

I’m putting these aside for a rainy day – not so far away with autumn coming – but having seen David’s version of the LNW D53 cut down from the Ratio D54, I should push on and finish my batch of LNW wagons.

 

On 31/08/2016 at 13:34, sharris said:

I hope it's not bad form in this thread to include pre-grouping wagons in LMS livery, so here are a few variations on a Midland D299.

 

You're welcome - the more D299 the merrier - I like all three, especially the Lot 919 conversion. The D344 manure wagon in Midland Wagons has an extra cast plate on the solebar, shaped like a numberplate but with the wording "To be returned to Nottingham when empty" (not Derby, one notes) - what doesn't seem to be known is whether Nottingham was the manure-generating capital of the midlands or (perhaps more likely) whether there were wagons based at all major cattle dock sidings. Also, where were the consigned when full? (If the inhabitants of Nottingham had much say in the matter, probably Derby...)

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Penlan]

Lets just hope Cooper Craft start producing the D299's again, I have some on back order.......

[BG John]

Lets just hope Cooper Craft start producing the D299's again, I have some on back order.......

Edited August 31, 2016 by BG John

[BG John]

I somehow managed to post two flying pigs!!

Edited August 31, 2016 by BG John

[sharris]

Lets just hope Cooper Craft start producing the D299's again, I have some on back order.......

Apart from a curve at the bottom of the ironwork to the sides of the doors, the semi-circular plates on the solebars infront of the w iron tops and a slight chamfer as you go up the end stanchions the D299 is basically made from horizontals and verticals - it probably wouldn't be too hard to create 3D models for printing the body without too much in the way of jaggies. Add your own buffers and underframe bits from the likes of MJT, Bill Bedford, etc. and Bob's your uncle.

[Guy Rixon]

The 3 and 4-plank opens and the early van are all candidates for the red livery. The van has been built with one-side brakes but a brake lever on both sides. Neither lever has the Morton ratchet so perhaps it’s just as well there’s no cross-shaft! The O4 has the levers for the Dean-Churchward brake at the wrong end – moving the brakes to the other side looks like being the only option – unless someone can tell me some were built with conventional lever brakes?

 

The tall V4 presents an interesting challenge: according to Atkins, very soon after building the 178 8’0” high vans of Lot 476 were equipped with vacuum brakes for use in the Great Western’s new express freight services. I thought I’d read that this meant 3’6” wheels but I the notes I made from the copy of Atkins I borrowed don’t say so; anyway the DC1 brakes have to go. I’ll have to go back to Atkins to see if there’s information on the arrangement of the automatic brakes. Also, it'll be challenging to justify this van escaping from its express freight diagram to condescend to work through to a Midland destination...

 

 

You're welcome - the more D299 the merrier - I like all three, especially the Lot 919 conversion. The D344 manure wagon in Midland Wagons has an extra cast plate on the solebar, shaped like a numberplate but with the wording "To be returned to Nottingham when empty" (not Derby, one notes) - what doesn't seem to be known is whether Nottingham was the manure-generating capital of the midlands or (perhaps more likely) whether there were wagons based at all major cattle dock sidings. Also, where were the consigned when full? (If the inhabitants of Nottingham had much say in the matter, probably Derby...)

 

 

Re O4: even if there were some with conventional brakes, your brake push-rods ex DCI would still be the wrong way round. So no easy way out.

 

Re V4: Atkins et al. don't have a drawing of the V4 vacuum brakes, but they do have a GA for the Y2 fruit van on p443 and a photo of a Y1 fruit van on p.445. The Y2 was supposed to be related to the V4 and the Y1 to V5, but whether this applied to the brake details I don't know. Both fruit vans have slightly odd vacuum brakes. The Y2 has the cylinder on the centre line and the V-hangars offset, possible to bring the brake lever clear of the steps. The Y1 photo looks to be rigged the same, except that it has a DC-style lever in place of the plain lever. Both vans have clasp brakes and the Mainly Trains etch would supply most of the parts. If a V4 is indeed a Y1 with different vents, it's not clear to me whether it also has the offset brake hangers; it doesn't really need them as it doesn't have steps.

 

Re manure wagons: they might have been concentrated in cities where the MR won the contract to remove horse manure from the streets. In London, the SECR was contracted for most of this traffic.

[Graham456]

I suspect the eight ton outside framed van in the back row of your picture is Ian Kirk's product if that's of any help but I can't remember what diagram number it is to help with numbering it, useful wagon for something different In amongst all the other look-a-like gwr vans, I believe a modern kit is on the David Geen lists

[Brassey]

"Posted Today, 18:04 

I suspect the eight ton outside framed van in the back row of your picture is Ian Kirk's product if that's of any help but I can't remember what diagram number it is to help with numbering it, useful wagon for something different In amongst all the other look-a-like gwr vans, I believe a modern kit is on the David Geen lists "

 

I have one and I think it should have grease axle boxes

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Brassey

[Compound2632]

I somehow managed to post two flying pigs!!

 

... three wouldn't have been too many.

 

Re O4: even if there were some with conventional brakes, your brake push-rods ex DCI would still be the wrong way round. So no easy way out.

 

Re V4: Atkins et al. don't have a drawing of the V4 vacuum brakes, but they do have a GA for the Y2 fruit van on p443 and a photo of a Y1 fruit van on p.445. The Y2 was supposed to be related to the V4 and the Y1 to V5, but whether this applied to the brake details I don't know. Both fruit vans have slightly odd vacuum brakes. The Y2 has the cylinder on the centre line and the V-hangars offset, possible to bring the brake lever clear of the steps. The Y1 photo looks to be rigged the same, except that it has a DC-style lever in place of the plain lever. Both vans have clasp brakes and the Mainly Trains etch would supply most of the parts. If a V4 is indeed a Y1 with different vents, it's not clear to me whether it also has the offset brake hangers; it doesn't really need them as it doesn't have steps.

 

Re manure wagons: they might have been concentrated in cities where the MR won the contract to remove horse manure from the streets. In London, the SECR was contracted for most of this traffic.

 

Re. O4: but I've the conventionally-handed brakes still on the sprue from the O4 I built earlier! Re. V4: looks like I'll have to borrow Atkins again.

 

Re. manure wagons, that's an interesting suggestion. I'd followed Bob Essery's assumption that they were associated with cattle traffic. They were built in four small lots (20, 20, 32, 30) in the 1890s - might point to four contracts? The Midland Railway Traffic Committee minutes in the National Archives at Kew might shed some light.

 

I suspect the eight ton outside framed van in the back row of your picture is Ian Kirk's product if that's of any help but I can't remember what diagram number it is to help with numbering it, useful wagon for something different In amongst all the other look-a-like gwr vans, I believe a modern kit is on the David Geen lists

 

That figures. I've got a L&Y (loco?) coal wagon somewhere built from an Ian Kirk kit when I was a teenager. I recall I painted it red-brown (supposedly natural finish wood - I'd go for more creamy-grey-brown now) with black ironwork. If I could locate it, it would be in the queue for refurbishment.  

 

I have one and I think it should have grease axle boxes

 

The Great Western Wagons whitemetal 3-plank wagon comes with a choice of oil or grease boxes, oil for the few long-term survivors but I guess that even though the Great Western was giving new wagons oil boxes in the early 1900s, wagons built in the 1880s would keep their grease boxes for a good long while. I see MJT have GW grease boxes; I get my GW buffers from them so I'm evidently building up enough wants to justify the postage!

Edited August 31, 2016 by Compound2632

[Spitfire2865]

While Slaters D299s are in short supply, I am rather glad I snapped one up which came up on hattons preowned.

Must find more....

[sharris]

A livery question here.

 

I've seen photos in Northedge's LNWR wagons book of pre and post-grouping wagon liveries happily co-existing. One picture is dated at 1932.

 

Is there any information that gives proportions and distribution (were some company paint shops more diligent than others?) of vehicles still carrying pre-grouping liveries through the grouping years?

 

I'm adding some pre-grouping liveried (late style MR, LNWR and NS) stock to my collection, but would some juxtapositions of these and grouping liveried vehicles be implausible? I'm considering the period from about 1932 to 1938.

[Edwardian]

A livery question here.

 

I've seen photos in Northedge's LNWR wagons book of pre and post-grouping wagon liveries happily co-existing. One picture is dated at 1932.

 

Is there any information that gives proportions and distribution (were some company paint shops more diligent than others?) of vehicles still carrying pre-grouping liveries through the grouping years?

 

I'm adding some pre-grouping liveried (late style MR, LNWR and NS) stock to my collection, but would some juxtapositions of these and grouping liveried vehicles be implausible? I'm considering the period from about 1932 to 1938.

 

I don't think 10-15 years is implausible before a wagon repaint.  One of my interests is 1935, I had assumed that company wagons would almost all be in Grouping livery by then, but assumptions are dangerous and you raise a good point!

 

I will keep a look out for dated photographs that might assist you.

[billbedford]

....and photographers have a bias toward the unusual, so they were/are more likely to take photos of things that appear out of context. A few photos of wagons still in pre-grouping liveries in the early 30s will not give any indication how prevalent such liveries were at the time. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by billbedford

[Edwardian]

....and photographers have a bias toward the unusual, so they were/are more likely to take photos of things that appear out of context. A few photos of wagons still in pre-grouping liveries in the early 30s will not give any indication how prevalent such liveries were at the time. 

 

Fair point, but back to the albums I go to get a sense of period!

[Compound2632]

September always seems to be a busy month with little spare time for modelling; particularly this year as I’ve started training for a new career in teaching. However, I’ve managed to find the odd moment to progress my Ratio LNW kit-bashes, spurred on by Guy Rixon’s thread.

 

I’ve added the end pillars to the D2 2-plank wagon, using 60 thou square Microstrip, with strapping from 30 thou x 10 thou Microstrip, filed and skrawked down to make it a bit thinner. For the bolt heads, I’ve used the same method as for this sides, building up a ladder of 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip:

 

 

The Microstrip is trimmed off to leave the bolt heads:

 

 

Not perfect – you can see I’ve lost one bolt head and the blade has dug into the end pillars. Next session, with better lighting, I’ll try to tidy this up.

 

Progress on the D54 to D53 conversion has been slower. I’ve scraped off my first attempt at diagonal strapping. I found a better 0.5 mm bit and drilled holes in the positions of the bolts for the strapping at the left-hand end and also tried to drift the holes at the right-hand end to a better position. A view from the inside:

 

 

Diagonal strapping from 30 thou x 10 thou Microstrip, skrawked thinner as before. Then I pressed through the holes from behind with the flat end of a did 0.5 mm bit to emboss the bolt heads – this doesn’t show up very well in the photo but looks good enough in the flesh:

 

 

I’ve painted the D3 2-plank dropside and D4 4-plank open and given them a coat of Humbrol gloss varnish so we’ll see if I get better results with the waterslide transfers!

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[jrg1]

Flying Pig.jpg

Flying Pigs and Pork Pies!

The more things change...........  In Australia, trying to source kits and bits from what turns out to be dud outfits is even more enervating.  Outdated, irrelevant sites, businesses who do not take credit cards, and what's Paypal?, unique ideas on commercial reality such as the kit manufacturer who refuses to provide spares (That's fine, I was going to purchase a couple of locomotive kits as well, but thanks to your sour response, I suggest you take a hike), businesses who do not have sites, internet access or even email, and finally outfits who promise products and fail to deliver, such as Falcon.

[jrg1]

I have just seen this post-it may be of use to you.

 

Also new from LRM is an etch in nickel silver to provide a rigid, sprung or compensated underfame/w-irons for the Ratio LNWR wagons.

 

The "base" etch has cut-outs to match the moulded projections under the Ratio wagon floor for correct and accurate alignment.

 

The suspension units can be built with "traditional" compensation having one rocking w-iron, rigid, with both w-irons fixed or sprung/compensated using the design developed by Paul Tasker of Prickly Pear Products. Each w-iron can rock but is "controlled" by parallel wire springs joining the outsides of each w-iron and supported at their centres. 

 

The underframe at the top of the attched photo shows the sprung/compensated version, the one at the bottom right hand corner showing the single rocking w-iron compensation.

 

 

 

Priced at £8:00, the suspension pack provides two etches to convert two Ratio wagons, pivot and spring wires, plus the correct brass pinpoint bearings to match the etches to the standard 26mm wagon wheel axles.

 

The LRM website;

 

http://traders.scale...ndonRoadModels/

 

will be updated shortly to include this and other new releases. They can be contacted through the contact page on the website.

 

[Mikkel]

I’ve added the end pillars to the D2 2-plank wagon, using 60 thou square Microstrip, with strapping from 30 thou x 10 thou Microstrip, filed and skrawked down to make it a bit thinner. For the bolt heads, I’ve used the same method as for this sides, building up a ladder of 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip

 

Very nice work. If you can't find it, build it!

 

I especially like the creative thinking involved in making those bolt heads.

[Londontram]

I hope you don't mind me slipping this in here, I run this up on the Silhouette cutter last week and its from a drawing I did in Inkscape to test to see if I could produce a drawing that would enable me to run of a rake relatively cheaply. Its a Caledonian diagram 15 eight ton four plank goods wagon and apart from the fittings which came from Wizard and Comet W irons with pin point bearings and Hornby 12mm spoked wheels its all been done on the Silhouette.

As I say its a test bed and has its faults which have been altered on the drawing the main one being the body base being to narrow which gives the effect of the hinges "hanging" in mid air but as I say this has been altered on the drawings. The hand brake lever I'm afraid is my own fault as I wanted to see it finished and realised I didn't have any in stock so added my own, Again I've ordered an etch so the "production" ones will be better. This will be updated when I get the parts.

  Here's the wagon with a Caledonian diagram 6 brake van cir 1880s also built from a Silhouette cutting of an Inkscape drawing this still needing a few jobs before being ready for paint

                                                                                                                   Steve

 

Edit. Whoops sorry forgot the second photo

Edited September 27, 2016 by Londontram

[sharris]

I hope you don't mind me slipping this in here, I run this up on the Silhouette cutter last week and its from a drawing I did in Inkscape to test to see if I could produce a drawing that would enable me to run of a rake relatively cheaply... 

 

If you don't mind me asking, did the Silhouette cut all the way through the plasticard, or did you just mark score lines with it, and what thickness of plasticard are you using with it? 

 

Btw... in case you didn't know, if you want to reduce the number of bits you need to stick bolt-heads onto, the MJT version of the W-iron frets (just a happy customer) also include etches of the sole-bar crown and washer plates and a variety of coupling hook plates. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by sharris

[Londontram]

If you don't mind me asking, did the Silhouette cut all the way through the plasticard, or did you just mark score lines with it, and what thickness of plasticard are you using with it? 

 

Btw... in case you didn't know, if you want to reduce the number of bits you need to stick bolt-heads onto, the MJT version of the W-iron frets (just a happy customer) also include etches of the sole-bar crown and washer plates and a variety of coupling hook plates. 

No please ask away, Silhouette is still a learning curve for me too at the moment.

        All the major parts were cut from 20 thou plasticard and the Silhouette wont cut right through but will heavily score so with the large parts it was a case of just snapping them out. The smaller items like hinges and end plates and all the chassis detail was done on 10 thou plasticard with a Silhouette blade set at 6 pressure 33 with a speed 1 and double cut option and pretty much most parts will just fall out with 10 thou or be left on the tacky mat.

Every major part is doubled up which does let you do the planking detail on the reverse side like the inside of the wagon and with 20 thou that makes it 40 thou thick or 1mm  which gives it strength and cuts down the chance bowing or warping. Here is a snapped from the pc screen view of another project an earlier dumb buffer wagon  to give you some idea of how I draw it, all drawings are done on Inkscape and saved as an svg file on Inkscape but also as dxf files which are Silhouette compatible.

The three small drawings at the bottom are sizing and alignment tests to see if all the parts will fit before cutting and these will not be part of the cut. The retangle with the smaller retangle inside is so some weight can be placed in the base of the body and it matches a similar cut out in the top layer of the chassis floor.

The four plank wagon in the previous post has already been dissembled and the body scrapped and a new body incorporating all the changes and improvements is ready to print.

        As I was looking at doing a batch of wagons the chassis is a separate unit which can be easily altered to be used on other types or lengths of wagons

   A final photo which shows some of the detail parts cut on the Silhouette on 10 thou plasticard in this picture are the W iron "horse shoe" plates and some builders plates

                                                                                          Steve

 

Edit - Sorry forgot the pictures again...... Doh

Edited September 27, 2016 by Londontram

[BG John]

I've still got a long way to go, as I'm struggling with my first Inkscape/Silhouette wagon!

[Compound2632]

 

I have just seen this post-it may be of use to you.

 

Also new from LRM is an etch in nickel silver to provide a rigid, sprung or compensated underfame/w-irons for the Ratio LNWR wagons.

 

 

 

Priced at £8:00, the suspension pack provides two etches to convert two Ratio wagons, pivot and spring wires, plus the correct brass pinpoint bearings to match the etches to the standard 26mm wagon wheel axles.

 

The LRM website;

 

http://traders.scale...ndonRoadModels/

 

will be updated shortly to include this and other new releases. They can be contacted through the contact page on the website.

 

 

 

Thanks, yes I'd seen these mentioned on Guy Rixon's workbench thread - a case of just too late for me! But if I ever get to the point of upgrading to P4, this would certainly be a way to go.

[BG John]

They sold out at Scaleforum, and it will be some weeks before there are more available I've been told. I was advised to contact LRM to express an interest.

http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/contact-us/

[Compound2632]

I hope you don't mind me slipping this in here, I run this up on the Silhouette cutter last week and its from a drawing I did in Inkscape to test to see if I could produce a drawing that would enable me to run of a rake relatively cheaply. Its a Caledonian diagram 15 eight ton four plank goods wagon and apart from the fittings which came from Wizard and Comet W irons with pin point bearings and Hornby 12mm spoked wheels its all been done on the Silhouette.

 

As I say its a test bed and has its faults which have been altered on the drawing the main one being the body base being to narrow which gives the effect of the hinges "hanging" in mid air but as I say this has been altered on the drawings. The hand brake lever I'm afraid is my own fault as I wanted to see it finished and realised I didn't have any in stock so added my own, Again I've ordered an etch so the "production" ones will be better. This will be updated when I get the parts.

 

I've been following the Silhouette thread with great interest - it's a disruptive technology that's a bit more accessible and amenable to trial-and-error at low cost than 3D printing, and also still preserves the craft element - you're making your own kit and using complementary techniques such as embossing the bolt heads on the corner plates by hand. You mention in your reply to sharris that you're using it to score and then snap thicker Plastikard in the traditional manner. To my mind, a drawback for wagon building is that you can't deal with thicker material - I'd want to start from 60 thou x 157 thou Microstrip for 4.5" x 12" headstocks and solebars. I love what you're doing and hate to criticise and I'm not familiar with Caledonian wagons but the headstocks do look a bit on the thin side?