More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Really nice work.   

 

The timber wagon is great, so much character in such a small wagon!  And special thanks for the details on what worked for you with the soldering, very useful. I have never mastered whitemetal soldering, so this is inspirational.

 

You must be able to put together a really impressive goods train by now! 

[Penlan]

......... The test piece is a David Geen kit for a Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway 3-plank dropside wagon to Diagram 15. According to Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons Vol. 1 by Noel Coates (Wild Swan, 1990), 1722 of these were built between 1893 and 1901. They are described as Fruit Wagons which I take to be a L&Y code name rather than their intended traffic!

......

I have some A4 size photocopies from the original L&Y Wagon Dia Book, but unfortunately all the interesting data (build dates.....)  on the left hand side of the sheets is basically missed off.

However, there are the edge of 5 lines of data with dates for the Dia 15 - Fruit Wagon with Falling Sides - (As yours, full length)

..ept /91

..un/90

..un/80

../80

and in pencil under the side view, 'Built up to 1916, Break up 1951'.

Dims, 16' overall length of body side, 7' 6.5" overall width of body.  w/b 9' 0".

 

There was also the Dia. 16 'Fruit Wagon', which just has a centre door each side, 4 planks high, though there seems to be two different heights, 2' 3" at 5t 5cwt, and 3' 0" at 5t 17cwt.  

Again the interesting data is missed off on the left hand side.  'Plated' and 'Unplated Solebars' for instance.

 

I don't have the L&Y wagon book(s) so can't compare the Dia. book to Noel's text, but knowing Noel, he will be spot on.

 

Edit - Ooooops, I see there was an even bigger Fruit Wagon later on, Dia. 70.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

I normally put a groove in the lower part of the bearing etc., so I can 'ease' an axle in place. Still need to push the (whitemetal) axle boxes together afterwards, but in the way I model, wheels are the last things I want to put in place.

But Hey-Ho, everybody has their own methods that they are happy with - it's a hobby.    

 

I knew there must be a better way! I wasn't keen on bending the whitemetal too much too many times though I did end up doing so accidentally while getting the position of the brass bearings right - they had to go well in to avoid the axleguards being splayed out. I used waisted bearings to avoid having to drill too far into the whitemetal axleboxes.

 

Those dates don't tie up with the book - 1880, 90, 91 too early, 1916 too late! But Noel does say "the Diagram Book suggests that there were survivors awaiting breaking-up from 1951" so must have been aware of the other notes.

 

Anyway, I'm going for c.1903-ish which means the "unpainted" livery - which unfortunately doesn't mean unpainted whitemetal. Solebars and framing were usually oak and body planks deal - so I expect these would weather to different shades of brown/grey even if initially varnished. Any suggestions out there?

Edited December 29, 2016 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Really nice work.   

 

The timber wagon is great, so much character in such a small wagon!  And special thanks for the details on what worked for you with the soldering, very useful. I have never mastered whitemetal soldering, so this is inspirational.

 

You must be able to put together a really impressive goods train by now! 

 

Thanks! I do have a pile of break van kits to work through but the challenge is really at the front end... My LNWR wagon binge is motivated by having a Bachmann Coal Tank on pre-order. Somehow I feel the need to work my skills up gradually to the point where I can make a proper go of a Midland 0-6-0 in fully-lined crimson lake livery! Also I need many more D299 5-plank opens... It's like mince pies and walking at Christmas - I've overindulged in the wagons of the lesser lines and need to work it off with a mass build of MR wagons.

[Mikkel]

I know exactly what you mean - it's more fun to model all the other companies' wagons    Still, a long train of D299s behind a fully lined 0-6-0 sounds pretty good!

 

Would it help if we challenge you to produce three D299s for every foreign wagon you show on here? 

[Compound2632]

I know exactly what you mean - it's more fun to model all the other companies' wagons    Still, a long train of D299s behind a fully lined 0-6-0 sounds pretty good!

 

Would it help if we challenge you to produce three D299s for every foreign wagon you show on here? 

 

In post #1 I wrote "For an Edwardian period Midland layout, I reckon every fourth wagon I build should be one of these!" - I'd happily rise to that challenge if folk would be so kind as to send me their unbuilt Slater's kits... But you all need them too - any Edwardian goods yard, anywhere, there will be one ...

[Compound2632]

In post #1 I wrote "For an Edwardian period Midland layout, I reckon every fourth wagon I build should be one of these!" - I'd happily rise to that challenge if folk would be so kind as to send me their unbuilt Slater's kits... But you all need them too - any Edwardian goods yard, anywhere, there will be one ...

 

Incidentally, the presence in the linked photo of three Midland wagons and a wagon from a Birmingham coal factor suggest that Huntley & Palmers got their coal from the Warwickshire coalfield so I'll be justified in having some H&P wagons on my north Birmingham-ish layout.

[Compound2632]

It was too cold yesterday for soldering in the so-called “breakfast kitchen” – and I’ve started my traditional New Year cold – so it’s been back to plastic on the dining-room table. The second set of 2-plank dropside wagon parts from Ratio kit 575 has gone together as a second D3, this time with the correct square-ended headstocks – bodged together using further bits of the double brake-block molding. The brake lever is cranked to fit under the headstock – Guy Rixon did this in robust metal; mine is simply bent up by softening the plastic part with solvent, leaving to set and hoping for the best. This wagon has the single pushrod brake whereas Guy’s has the ultra-primitive flap brake with wooden brake block – which is what is seen in both the photos in LNWR Wagons, which are c.1923 – although admittedly both may be Earlestown works internal user stock. Nevertheless it amazes me that this primitive brake that looks as if it dates from Grand Junction days was still widespread in the early 20th century. Anyway, my model is of one of those wagons with a slightly less primitive brake that somehow didn’t get photographed:

 

 

Today’s other wagon is a Gloucester 6-plank side and end-door wagon from a Slater’s kit recently won on Ebay – I just missed out on a Midland D299 5-plank open but won a D390 10 T brake van too. The Slater’s Gloucester wagons go together very nicely – just a bit of scrawking and filing down of the floor to fit and likewise of the corner-plates to give a nicely rounded finish. Cambrian do some Gloucester wagons – but not as wide a range as Slater’s used to and, I have to say, the Slater’s moldings are much crisper. I’ve not decided whose wagon this will be – I had really been looking for a side-door only 6-plank wagon to represent Huntley & Palmers No. 21. Looking through Keith Montague’s Gloucester wagon book and the POWsides lists, end-door wagons seem to have been favoured by South Wales collieries and side-door only wagons by coal merchants and other small users – who wouldn’t have had facilities for tipping wagons – and also by north Warwickshire collieries (vide the Birch Coppice wagons in post #14). I suppose this is because a great deal of South Wales coal went by rail only as far as the ports whereas the market for north Warwickshire coal was more local – again looking at the Gloucester book, several  Gloucestershire and Worcestershire-based coal merchants' wagons are lettered Return to Birch Coppice Colliery / Kingsbury Junction / Netherseal Colliery…

 

The queue for the paintshop is getting quite long. I think I’ve squeezed as many LNWR wagons as I can out of the batch of Ratio kits I bought in the summer, with just one pair of solebars left over from the eight pairs from one each of the “LMS Traffic Coal and 4-Plank Wagons” kit 575, the “Permanent Way Wagons” kit 576, and underframe kit 570. From these I’ve made:

• D4 7 Ton 4-plank open wagon (more-or-less per the kit)
• D53 8 Ton coal wagon (4 planks, cut down from the D54 5-plank 10 Ton coal wagon)
• 2 x D3 2-plank dropside wagon (though I think I need to revisit the headstocks on the first one, still half-way through the paint shop)
• D2 2-plank open (scratchbuilt sides and ends)
• D12 timber wagon
• D1 1-plank open (you haven’t seen this yet – the sides and ends from the second permanent way wagon have been crudely extended up; the idea is that everything will be hidden under a wagon sheet).

As well as paint and couplings, they all need weighting and loads – several with wagon sheets. I also have to check they’ve all got split-spoke wheels, as from LNWR Wagons I learn this was another piece of Earlestown primitivism. The D12 timber wagon isn’t much use on its own so I’m tempted to buy another Permanent Way kit to provide the material for a D13 timber wagon pair, also with dumb buffers; the question is what to do with the rest of the parts as I’ll be in danger of having an excess of D3 dropside wagons… There would at least be a set of buffers going spare to finish off the D1.

 

I’ve also got a Mousa D1 and a second D32 covered wagon to build, along with a London Road Models D16 10 T brake van – the motivation for finally getting to grips with whitemetal soldering – and previously-built Ratio D54 coal wagons (two), D9 10 T open, and D64 loco coal wagon, so enough to test the haulage capacity of the Bachmann Coal Tank when it arrives!

 

Here's to more wagons in 2017! Who knows - I may progress to carriages or even locomotives...

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Happy New Year! If I’d progressed just a little faster I could have finished the old year with brake van, which would have been appropriate, but there we go:

 

 

LNWR D16 10 Ton brake van – the London Road Models kit. All soldered – the end-to-side joints aren’t perfect but at least it’s square and rolls along nicely (thanks to a rocking W-iron unit). I did have to swap the bearings in the kit for MJT waisted bearings to avoid splaying of the axleguards.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

You aren't resting on your laurels! What a source of inspiration this thread is.

 

Speaking of which, I was re-reading your earlier post on the GWR O4 where you said:

 

It’s entirely possible that many/most/all of these wagons emerged from Swindon after the adoption of the 25” G W lettering, despite the lot authorisation dates. Supposing, however, that many were completed in 1902 – early 1903, they could have had the cast number and owner plates and, in balance of probability, have been painted red all over.

 

You were quite right. On page 56 in GWR Goods Services Part 2A there is a photo of a rake of O4s from the first production batch. They have cast numberplates, and so this is correct.

 

The wagons in the photo have lever brakes by the way. However, in GWR Goods Wagons by Atkins et al we can read that DC1 brakes were first introduced for trial in 1901-1902 to a few 4- plankers and trucks, and "Many 9ft wheelbase OPENs and MINKs were thereafter fitted". So if your O4 was built in 1903-04 it could legitimately have DC1 brakes and a red livery.

[Compound2632]

On page 56 in GWR Goods Services Part 2A there is a photo of a rake of O4s from the first production batch. They have cast numberplates, and so this is correct.

 

The wagons in the photo have lever brakes by the way. However, in GWR Goods Wagons by Atkins et al we can read that DC1 brakes were first introduced for trial in 1901-1902 to a few 4- plankers and trucks, and "Many 9ft wheelbase OPENs and MINKs were thereafter fitted". So if your O4 was built in 1903-04 it could legitimately have DC1 brakes and a red livery.

 

Thanks Mikkel. I do have a second-hand Coopercraft O4 for rebuilding when I turn my attention to GW wagons again, so it’ll be red with plates and conventional lever brakes. A redder red though – a better match for red lead than Humbrol 100 red brown. One point of doubt that wasn’t resolved was whether the door stops that stick down at an angle from the solebar were original – do the wagons in the photo you mention have them?

Edited January 2, 2017 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

However, in GWR Goods Wagons by Atkins et al we can read that DC1 brakes were first introduced for trial in 1901-1902 to a few 4- plankers and trucks, and "Many 9ft wheelbase OPENs and MINKs were thereafter fitted". So if your O4 was built in 1903-04 it could legitimately have DC1 brakes and a red livery.

 

That's unusually devious of you, Mikkel, but I like it.

[LNWR lives on]

If you want to rehome the parts for two ballast wagons then I would be willing to help you out as I am a couple short for projects

[Compound2632]

If you want to rehome the parts for two ballast wagons then I would be willing to help you out as I am a couple short for projects

 

Could do - but I'm in danger of becoming interested - see my post on your thread...

[Penlan]

......These kits came out around 1980, at much the same time as the kits for the 50’ arc-roof corridor carriages that are still available – there must have been a LNWR enthusiast at Ratio at the time......

It was the young Mr Webster, I loaned them all my plans etc., of Knighton (Radnorshire) for a projected layout, but which they then decided not to do and returned all the material, which included a lot of original LNWR Knighton track and property/boundary plans (40' to 1" stuff, etc.,) - I wish those in South Wales who I then forwarded them onto could have returned them too, I'm still waiting.

[Penlan]

.... LNWR D16 10 Ton brake van – ......

I saw this and thought "I think it's time to get another kit, that photo of J.P.Richards 7mm model at York in '40 years of the LNWR Society'* needs to be replicated in 4mm".... As if 10 Brake Vans isn't enough already....

 

* Even though it miss' out I was Editor for a couple of years as well as Hon. Sec.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Penlan

[LNWR lives on]

Could do - but I'm in danger of becoming interested - see my post on your thread...

Careful, if you get too interested I shall have to send you an LNWR Society membership leaflet

 

Incidentally of late we have had a series by Peter Ellis on the LNWR Wagon numbering system

[Penlan]

If you want to rehome the parts for two ballast wagons then I would be willing to help you out as I am a couple short for projects

Be mindful that there were often other wagons mixed in too, PO's etc,. All hands to the pump.

[Penlan]

Incidentally of late we have had a series by Peter Ellis on the LNWR Wagon numbering system

Peter has done a lot of specific work (years) on the LNWR's random numbering... OK there was a system, but   

He has to be given a lot of credit for that, mindful most of the LNWR records were lost long ago.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Hi Compound,

 

Just had a read through your thread; good to see real modelling of interesting prototypes.

 

One point that occurs to me in seeing your comments about the carrier film on the transfers being visible.  Transfers go on much better to a gloss surface, so give your wagons a quick dust with an airbrush or can of spray glass varnish (careful of the cans, many do rather flood the paint out).  Then apply the varnish and then give them a coat of matt varnish.  You will find that all of the carrier film will then be invisible.

 

Keep up the good work, I have done a fair selection of the models you have done, so am very familier with many of them!

[Compound2632]

One point that occurs to me in seeing your comments about the carrier film on the transfers being visible.  Transfers go on much better to a gloss surface, so give your wagons a quick dust with an airbrush or can of spray glass varnish (careful of the cans, many do rather flood the paint out).  Then apply the varnish and then give them a coat of matt varnish.  You will find that all of the carrier film will then be invisible.

 

Thanks - see post #177 - but I've not got round to the final coat of matt varnish yet, as I still have to do the tare weights (HMRS pressfix), that's waiting on painting the rest of my queue of LNW wagons!

[Mikkel]

One point of doubt that wasn’t resolved was whether the door stops that stick down at an angle from the solebar were original – do the wagons in the photo you mention have them?

 

No, there are no doorstops as such.  There is a single central patch on the second plank from the top, suggesting that the base of the V hanger served as a door stop (in GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins et al state that 4-plankers with door patches used the V hanger as doorstopper). I'll send you a scan when I can access the scanner later this week.

 

Funny you mention the O4 rebuild you want to do, I was thinking of doing the same. It would have been easier to build a new kit but even the O4 isn't available any more, despite being a very common kit once. 

[Mikkel]

PS, here is another photo of what I assume is an early O4 with cast number plates - second wagon: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ap8AAOSw8RJXC0oR/s-l1600.jpg

 

Edit: This one appears to have the small doorstops.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Mikkel

[wagonman]

PS, here is another photo of what I assume is an early O4 with cast number plates - second wagon: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ap8AAOSw8RJXC0oR/s-l1600.jpg

 

Edit: This one appears to have the small doorstops.

 

 

The small door stops were usually fitted to the non-brake side. Later retro-fitted with the long springy type on both sides. Some of the later 4-planks also had the short door stops on the non-brake side.

[Compound2632]

PS, here is another photo of what I assume is an early O4 with cast number plates - second wagon: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ap8AAOSw8RJXC0oR/s-l1600.jpg

 

Edit: This one appears to have the small doorstops.

 

 

The small door stops were usually fitted to the non-brake side. Later retro-fitted with the long springy type on both sides. Some of the later 4-planks also had the short door stops on the non-brake side.

 

Certainly it's the non-brake side of the O4 we can see in the Badminton photo - I can see blobs on the underside of the solebar that would align with the short metal verticals on the door but if anyone can point me to a better picture (or drawing) I'd be glad! The van behind is useful for the position of the painted number. The photo has been touched up - presumably it's a postcard; why oh why couldn't it have been hand-tinted too?