More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mrkirtley800]

Mousa Models are building up an interesting range of pre grouping wagons. I noticed that one 'in the pipeline' is the Kirtley brake van.

I scratch built one of these vehicles, in plasticard, some years ago and I enclose a piccie behind my well tank loco on my old Canal Road layout, long gone now. The van carries the warning notice 'Kirkby Malham Branch only'.

Derek

[Edwardian]

Mousa Models are building up an interesting range of pre grouping wagons. I noticed that one 'in the pipeline' is the Kirtley brake van.

I scratch built one of these vehicles, in plasticard, some years ago and I enclose a piccie behind my well tank loco on my old Canal Road layout, long gone now. The van carries the warning notice 'Kirkby Malham Branch only'.

Derek

 

Derek, your pictures are always a joy to see.

[John lewsey]

Lovely models

[brian777999]

MrKirtley : where did your well tank loco come from ?

[Mrkirtley800]

MrKirtley : where did your well tank loco come from ?

Brian, I scratch built it some years ago. I used a Skinley drawing and as many photos as I could get my hands on. Initially it sported Romford wheels, there were no others available, which were not the right size. Motor was a small K's. Painted by Coachman Larry. We are talking about the 1970s and early 80s.

Performance was a bit iffy.

As soon as the correct sized wheels were available, I rebuilt it and installed a Mashima motor and fitted compensation. Now runs quite sweetly and is used on the local Grassington goods on my Kirkby Malham layout.

Derek

Edited June 24, 2017 by Mrkirtley800

[Compound2632]

Hopping around a bit, for the last couple of days the paint shop has been occupied with the David Geen whitemetal L&Y D15 3-plank dropside wagon. I’ve had a go at trying to represent the L&Y’s pre-1902 goods wagon ‘livery’ of unpainted wood with black ironwork:

 

 

There’s plenty of advice around on how to simulate an unpainted finish on post-WW2 wooden-bodied mineral wagons but that run-down worn-out look isn’t what I’m hoping for here. I’m after the look of a fairly recently turned out wagon, in traffic and well-maintained. According to Coates’ Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons, frames were specified to be of English Oak, though I expect American Oak may have been used more as time went on. Sheeting would be deal – probably Baltic pine – the sort of timber used for floorboards in contemporary houses. Both these are pale and creamy in colour when freshly cut. Any sort of varnish would produce a more golden-brown colour – Newton Heath seems to have used varnish on at least some newly-built stock but possibly not humble open wagons. My guess is that the effect of atmospheric pollution would be to darken the colour. Only with prolonged exposure to weather and neglect would the wood go a grey colour. That’s my theory – I’m open to comment but please remember we’re talking about the late-Victorian heyday of our railways, not the decrepitude of half-a-century later.

 

My rather random approach started with a coat of grey primer (Halfords spray-can). I didn’t succed in completely masking the wheels, so they’ve gone a bit greyish. Next, a uniform coat of Humbrol No. 71 (satin oak). Result: milk chocolate wagon… Next I tried a thin coat of Humbrol No. 100 (matt red brown) – dry-brushing but then washing with thinners. This gave a rather too orangey look. Rummaging in my paint box, I found a tin or Precision B25 LNER coach teak (dull) – no idea why I had that, probably bought over 30 years ago and never before opened! I repeated the dry-brushing and thinners procedure. I was quite pleased with the result. I’ve tried this again on a wagon interior but omitting the Humbrol No. 100; the result looks a bit too much like the dining-room table.

 

I then picked out the iron-work in Humbrol No. 33 (matt black) – needs touching up… Finally, Humbrol gloss varnish from a spray can, in preparation for transfers. Rather frustratingly, the HMRS sheet of LMS constituent pre-grouping wagon insignia, which has the L&Y illiterate symbols and distinctive signwriting figures for the tare weight, along with many other useful things, seems to be only available at 7mm scale at present. However, POWSides do some smaller sheets that are specific to L&Y opens and also include more sets of illiterate symbols (ID 353) which I’ve ordered. (Let’s see what happens.)

 

There’s been some discussion on here about interior detail on open wagons – how prominent the side-knees ought to be, whether the planking lines would be visible, etc. With this in mind, I’ve given careful thought to the amount of detail I should include on this wagon. Here’s a photo of the fully-detailed interior:

 

 

… or not. Here’s why:

 

 

This isn’t the sheet I made earlier but one of my batch from wagonsheets.co.uk. These are on thinner paper and also, I supposed, represent an earlier pattern of L&Y sheet although looking back I see the previous one had a much lower number. My plan is to fashion a load – cotton bales? – from a piece of wood that will sit on the ledge formed by the top of the solebars. I need to stare at more photos for a while to get an idea of the shape – how lumpy? But I need to do the transfers and final coat of matt varnish first.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[wagonbasher]

Hopping around a bit, for the last couple of days the paint shop has been occupied with the David Geen whitemetal L&Y D15 3-plank dropside wagon. I’ve had a go at trying to represent the L&Y’s pre-1902 goods wagon ‘livery’ of unpainted wood with black ironwork:

 

L&Y D15 painted unpainted wood.JPG

 

There’s plenty of advice around on how to simulate an unpainted finish on post-WW2 wooden-bodied mineral wagons but that run-down worn-out look isn’t what I’m hoping for here. I’m after the look of a fairly recently turned out wagon, in traffic and well-maintained. According to Coates’ Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons, frames were specified to be of English Oak, though I expect American Oak may have been used more as time went on. Sheeting would be deal – probably Baltic pine – the sort of timber used for floorboards in contemporary houses. Both these are pale and creamy in colour when freshly cut. Any sort of varnish would produce a more golden-brown colour – Newton Heath seems to have used varnish on at least some newly-built stock but possibly not humble open wagons. My guess is that the effect of atmospheric pollution would be to darken the colour. Only with prolonged exposure to weather and neglect would the wood go a grey colour. That’s my theory – I’m open to comment but please remember we’re talking about the late-Victorian heyday of our railways, not the decrepitude of half-a-century later.

 

My rather random approach started with a coat of grey primer (Halfords spray-can). I didn’t succed in completely masking the wheels, so they’ve gone a bit greyish. Next, a uniform coat of Humbrol No. 71 (satin oak). Result: milk chocolate wagon… Next I tried a thin coat of Humbrol No. 100 (matt red brown) – dry-brushing but then washing with thinners. This gave a rather too orangey look. Rummaging in my paint box, I found a tin or Precision B25 LNER coach teak (dull) – no idea why I had that, probably bought over 30 years ago and never before opened! I repeated the dry-brushing and thinners procedure. I was quite pleased with the result. I’ve tried this again on a wagon interior but omitting the Humbrol No. 100; the result looks a bit too much like the dining-room table.

 

I then picked out the iron-work in Humbrol No. 33 (matt black) – needs touching up… Finally, Humbrol gloss varnish from a spray can, in preparation for transfers. Rather frustratingly, the HMRS sheet of LMS constituent pre-grouping wagon insignia, which has the L&Y illiterate symbols and distinctive signwriting figures for the tare weight, along with many other useful things, seems to be only available at 7mm scale at present. However, POWSides do some smaller sheets that are specific to L&Y opens and also include more sets of illiterate symbols (ID 353) which I’ve ordered. (Let’s see what happens.)

 

There’s been some discussion on here about interior detail on open wagons – how prominent the side-knees ought to be, whether the planking lines would be visible, etc. With this in mind, I’ve given careful thought to the amount of detail I should include on this wagon. Here’s a photo of the fully-detailed interior:

 

L&Y D15 interior detail.JPG

 

… or not. Here’s why:

 

L&Y wagon sheet (early).JPG

 

This isn’t the sheet I made earlier but one of my batch from wagonsheets.co.uk. These are on thinner paper and also, I supposed, represent an earlier pattern of L&Y sheet although looking back I see the previous one had a much lower number. My plan is to fashion a load – cotton bales? – from a piece of wood that will sit on the ledge formed by the top of the solebars. I need to stare at more photos for a while to get an idea of the shape – how lumpy? But I need to do the transfers and final coat of matt varnish first.  

 

In my experience most untreated timber form Oak to Pine and Deal weathers to a grey.  I used to work for Britain's biggest fence panel manufacturer and if we didn't convert untreated timber (sodt wood) into fence panels (at which point they get treated)  the outer timbers in the pallets / packs of timber went grey within six weeks.   I have a sleeper wall in my front garden.  The sleepers are oak (new not reclaimed) they are just over two years old and they go dark grey in the rain, light grey most of the time and a  when very dry there is a hint of brown.  So, most of the time they are Grey.   The  1937 floor boards that were a weathered  old golden brown that I chucked into the garden last year for chopping into kindling are now grey, a hint of green maybe..

 

Andy

 

Don't know what I did wrong...   my bits underlined.

 

 

 

 

[Spitfire2865]

Looks good, though having a floorless wagon would bug me, even if I could never see it.

I might have to build another G3 L&Y wagon to put in unpainted livery.

[Compound2632]

I might have to build another G3 L&Y wagon to put in unpainted livery.

 

Well, you wouldn't have the problem of working out how to paint it! I guess in the US you should be able to get hold of genuine oak and pine in suitably small sections - modelling in wood seems to be much more popular with you than here in Britain. But you can do the weathering test leaving the model outdoors for a couple of years. I'm not sure it would be such a good test though - I doubt you would be replicating the rainy, damp, smoggy conditions of turn of the 20th century Lancashire and Yorkshire (although in New York you might match the rainfall - but far too much sunshine). 

[Spitfire2865]

Well, you wouldn't have the problem of working out how to paint it! I guess in the US you should be able to get hold of genuine oak and pine in suitably small sections - modelling in wood seems to be much more popular with you than here in Britain. But you can do the weathering test leaving the model outdoors for a couple of years. I'm not sure it would be such a good test though - I doubt you would be replicating the rainy, damp, smoggy conditions of turn of the 20th century Lancashire and Yorkshire (although in New York you might match the rainfall - but far too much sunshine).

 

You make my climate sound so pleasant. And yes we often get far too much sun, much to my displeasure.

Im not sure my models would survive well outdoors, my L&Y van barely survived seasonal humidity last summer.

[Mikkel]

An interesting question how they weathered.  I was interested to see if any other representations of the unpainted livery could be found on the web, but drew a blank.

 

Do you know why the L&YR started painting their wagons eventually - or rather, why they began so late? 

[Compound2632]

On 27/06/2017 at 05:51, Mikkel said:

An interesting question how they weathered.  I was interested to see if any other representations of the unpainted livery could be found on the web, but drew a blank.

 

Do you know why the L&YR started painting their wagons eventually - or rather, why they began so late? 

 

Coates (Op. cit.) doesn’t give a reason or quote any written instruction for the L&Y’s change from unpainted to grey wagon livery; the evidence seems to be mostly photographic, although he does give a drawing for lettering styles dated April 1903. Grey paint seems first to have been used on the US-inspired bogie vans of 1902. These were also the first wagons to carry the company’s initials in large letters, so perhaps the move to grey is associated with this – several other companies moved to large initials around this time, catching up with the Midland (mid 1880s), although the LNWR didn’t make the change until 1908 and the NER in 1911. The GWR is another example where adoption of large initials may be associated with a change of body colour. Coates includes a couple of photos of new wagons around 1902-3 in grey with the illiterate symbols, so there was a period of transition.

 

I’m getting into this whitemetal soldering lark. I’ve been building plastic wagon kits for forty years on and off and first tried brass over thirty years ago but was put off whitemetal until recently, having visions of reducing expensive kits to pools of molten metal. (In passing, I’ll mention that my confidence and success with brass has improved since I got a set of bending bars.) I’m mostly using Carr’s 100°C solder and a 50W Antex iron set to 165°C; this is more pleasant than working with the 145°C solder and unregulated 25W Antex iron that I use for brass – the flux (Carr’s Red Label) doesn’t spit as much, the components don’t get hot enough to scorch my pine soldering block, and fingers can hold things in place for that vital few seconds longer. (I do also use a selection of small wooden blocks, pokey sticks, tweezers, etc.!) As I’ve said, I’ve found that the key is cleanliness and good polished surfaces for the soldered joint. Wanting to have another shot at an unpainted L&Y wagon, I’ve started on another David Geen kit, this time for a D3 covered goods wagon. Like the London Road Models brake vans, I believe this started out as a D&S kit.

 

The parts had a lot of flash that needed careful cleaning up, especially around the axleguards and the door hinges. I decided it might be easier to solder the buffers to the ends first, as usual I cut the buffer heads off and drilled out the buffer housings to take turned buffers. The cast buffers were a bit out of registration so needed work with the needle files to get them reasonably round. (Likewise some filing is needed to tidy up the ends of the headstocks.) With the three-bolt pattern, care has to be taken to fix the buffer housing in the right orientation (two bolts vertical inboard, one on the horizontal centre-line outboard). This was made trickier by soldering from the back of the headstock – this gives a neat finish but leads to three-handed work with the pliers to correct any error in orientation. I would have taken a photo to illustrate this but ran out of hands… I also soldered the axleguard/axlebox/spring castings onto the first side, using the solebar bolt pattern as a guide to position but again applying the iron from the rear – which did involve a bit of careful turning over. I polished (with a needle file) and tinned the two sides of the joint. To tin, I put a very small amount of solder on the bit of the iron, brushed flux on the surfaces, then ran the iron over the surfaces until things were hot enough for the solder to flow freely. It needs to feel like spreading margarine from a tub that’s been left out on a hot day. I then brought the components together, applied more flux and with a little bit more solder on the iron applied the iron to the joint until the solder flowed freely.

 

A really nice feature of this kit is that the angle iron that runs up the corner of the wagon body, cast as part of the side, forms a fine lip against which the end can be located. This reduces the degrees of freedom for things to get misaligned; one can concentrate on making sure side and end are at right angles, with the help of a small engineer’s square:

 

 

I polished and tinned the joint before soldering as described for the axleguards. At the first attempt, the end wasn’t quite at right-angles so I applied more flux and enough heat to get the solder flowing again so the angle could be adjusted. I find it helps to have a bit more fresh solder on the bit. This does mean that there’s quite a lot of solder on this first joint. Also, I learnt to allow enough time for the solder to cool before letting go – it’s too easy for the alignment to shift while the solder is still soft. The nice feature of the design of this kit is the way the sides and ends latch together: having got the first joint square, the second side can be used to hold the second end in place while soldering it to the first side:

 

 

The axleguards were soldered to the second side using the solebar bolt pattern as a first point of reference but also taking care that they were aligned with the axleguards on the first side, so that the axles will be square and parallel. (If things go badly wrong I can resort to an inside-bearing compensation unit.) Before soldering the second side in place, I will fit brass top-hat bearings and try out the wheelsets – as with a plastic kit, there’s scope to adjust the depth at which the bearings sit in the axleguards to get free running without too much slop. Here’s the second side sitting in place – it’s always good to sit back and admire one’s handiwork:

 

 

I’ve described my beginner’s whitemetal soldering technique in detail in the hope of encouraging other waverers to take the plunge. I’m sure that those with much more experience can offer their advice on better ways of doing things. (Remark intended as encouragement to do so!) For me, the key thing has been the confidence and security given by the temperature-controlled iron. Better to invest in the right equipment rather than become frustrated using unsuitable tools. As described, preparation of the components is also vital. I should also mention that at the end of a soldering session I give the model a good scrub clean with Cif and an old toothbrush and rinse off with cold water.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[jwealleans]

That makes a nice vehicle, the D3. I found one on the second hand stand at Spalding last year, just in a bag with no instructions and only identified it once I'd put it together. Luckily it was complete.

 

 

It is now complete and has run on Grantham at several shows.

Edited July 11, 2018 by jwealleans

[timbowilts]

Re post #337, please tell the lurkers how you get on (or got on) putting the wheels in once you'd soldered everything up?

 

Tim T

[Spitfire2865]

Ive built two Geen kits, and my solution was to chop up the axleguards and use etched replacements on an internal floor.

 

The van looks great, and Id love to see you tackle the livery again.

[Compound2632]

Re post #337, please tell the lurkers how you get on (or got on) putting the wheels in once you'd soldered everything up?

 

Tim T

 

The plan is to do as I did for the D15 open back at the end of last year - solder the second side on trapping the axles in place. 

 

Ive built two Geen kits, and my solution was to chop up the axleguards and use etched replacements on an internal floor.

 

I thought about etched axleguards when I first tackled the D15 open but at that time thought I couldn't get axleguards with the characteristic curved keeper plates. I've since found that the current version of the MJT compensated axleguards (item 2299) includes these (along with some other useful pits such as crownplates) but as I'd got on well enough first time round (all four wheels on the track on the level) I was happy to try again with the kit as supplied - though the axleguards did need a fair amount of flash removing. I forgot to mention that I've done my usual trick of filing them down on the visible edges to give a finer look.

 

Edit: looking again at Jonathan's version, I think he's used etched axleguards too.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Compound2632

[jwealleans]

looking again at Jonathan's version, I think he's used etched axleguards too

I'd have to look at it to be sure, but I think I may have used the 51L pregrouping etched ones.

[Mikkel]

Coates (Op. cit.) doesn’t give a reason or quote any written instruction for the L&Y’s change from unpainted to grey wagon livery; the evidence seems to be mostly photographic, although he does give a drawing for lettering styles dated April 1903. Grey paint seems first to have been used on the US-inspired bogie vans of 1902. These were also the first wagons to carry the company’s initials in large letters, so perhaps the move to grey is associated with this – several other companies moved to large initials around this time, catching up with the Midland (mid 1880s), although the LNWR didn’t make the change until 1908 and the NER in 1911. The GWR is another example where adoption of large initials may be associated with a change of body colour. Coates includes a couple of photos of new wagons around 1902-3 in grey with the illiterate symbols, so there was a period of transition. 

 

Thanks very much for that. Another intriguing livery change mystery then (as per the GWR red-to-grey wagon livery debate).  Isn't it odd that no trace can be found of the instructions for such significant livery changes in two major organisations, the L&Y and the GWR?

 

I sense an Edwardian conspiracy... 

[Edwardian]

Thanks very much for that. Another intriguing livery change mystery then (as per the GWR red-to-grey wagon livery debate).  Isn't it odd that no trace can be found of the instructions for such significant livery changes in two major organisations, the L&Y and the GWR?

 

I sense an Edwardian conspiracy... 

 

But I'm innocent, I tell you!!!!

[BG John]

But I'm innocent, I tell you!!!!

With the criminal record you now have on RMweb, do you think anyone will believe you?

[Edwardian]

With the criminal record you now have on RMweb, do you think anyone will believe you?

 

Too true.  "Known to the Moderators" it says in my file.

 

Mind how you go ...

[Nile]

He's not an Edwardian, he's a very naughty boy.

[Compound2632]

I've really no idea what they're going on about here... Back on thread:

 

I was going to give a blow-by-blow account of setting the bearings to exactly the right depth but they were spot-on first time. I used MJT waisted bearings, as fitting standard bearings would have involved drilling dangerously deep into the cast axleboxes. I lightly tinned the back of the axleguard then pushed down on the bearing with the iron to sweat it in to place. Next I polished (left) and tinned (right) the inside ends of the second side (and also the edges of the ends and then soldered the second side to the ends with the wheels in place, checking that all was square and the axles parallel before doing the final joint. These photos show rather better the locating lip on the end – a really fine piece of casting and evidence of Danny Pinnock’s craftsmanship:

 

 

The break gear is literally the weak point in a whitemetal kit. A true finescale modeller would replace these fragile bits of metal with something more robust:

 

 

I chose to try my best with the bits available. Some very cautious filing was needed to clean the pieces up and drill out the holes to take the cross shaft. I was glad to be modelling both-sides brakes as the cross-shaft provides a robust location to hang everything off.

 

 

I soldered the two brake block pieces in place first, as these have substantial mounting blocks on the back of the solebars and a neat U-channel section to help location – polishing and tinning both surfaces then sweating together, holding the tip of the iron firmly on the back of the channel bit of the brake block casting until the solder flowed, whilst taking great care to avoid contact with the plastic-centred wheels! I next threaded the cross-shaft through with a touch of solder at each push-rod. The backs of the V-hangers were next polished and tinned, along with the section of solebar where they sit. Each V-hanger was threaded onto the cross-shaft, sweated onto the solebar, and then secured to the cross-shaft with another light touch of solder. The cross-shaft was then cut off just proud of the V-hanger using side-cutters. Finally the brake levers were prepared. There’s a pip on the back of the lever that I suppose should locate in the hole in the V-hanger; as I’d left the end of the cross-shaft proud, I filed off the pip and drilled a locating hole into the back of the lever. This end of the lever was soldered into place first, then the end that fixes to the solebar – having prepared the surfaces as before.

 

I don’t have the second volume of Coates’ Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons, which covers these vans, so I only have a couple of photos (in Vol. 1) that show the brake gear on a D3. One of these, c. 1890, has single-sided brakes only; the other, dated Nov 1904, has one brake-block per side as I’ve modelled but  right-facing levers on both sides. The near side has the normally-acting lever so presumably it’s got the Morton cam on the far side. This van also has oil axleboxes, unlike the grease ones in the kit. So I’ve chosen to go for an intermediate arrangement with the left-facing lever, as on the D15 open. There’s also a goods yard view with a couple of D3s but these both show the normally-acting side, with one brake-block. What this does confirm is that this side is the side with the roof hatch, a point I will have to remember…

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Spitfire2865]

Looks good.

Though there are a few photos online that you dont seem to have.

Also, there is a single photo of an end on D3 in one of the other wagon books. If my memory serves correct, Midland Vol 2...maybe?

[Worsdell forever]

 I don’t have the second volume of Coates’ Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons, which covers these vans, so I only have a couple of photos (in Vol. 1) that show the brake gear on a D3. One of these, c. 1890, has single-sided brakes only; the other, dated Nov 1904, has one brake-block per side as I’ve modelled but  right-facing levers on both sides. The near side has the normally-acting lever so presumably it’s got the Morton cam on the far side. This van also has oil axleboxes, unlike the grease ones in the kit. So I’ve chosen to go for an intermediate arrangement with the left-facing lever, as on the D15 open. There’s also a goods yard view with a couple of D3s but these both show the normally-acting side, with one brake-block. What this does confirm is that this side is the side with the roof hatch, a point I will have to remember…

 

 

If it has both levers at the same end of the wagon it won't have a reversing clutch, just the invisible one to allow only one lever to be operated.